Getting desperate, no ignition.

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

Hi all,
Hoping ya'll are prepared to help a Dutch guy get the answer to solving my mystery problem.

So, I own a 2005 2.8 KJ CRD. And up until recently had no problems worth mentioning. Then, end of last year, my Jeep started bucking and having a rough time starting. It progressed to stalling mid driving and wouldn't start directly. After say 5 minutes it would.
Now it won't start at all! Or Ignite actually. When I turn the key it will turn over but just won't ignite/start running. It will start upon key when I prime with ether.
When it run all is fine, I can drive it it just as normal.
No codes.

A summary of what has already been done:

1. New high pressure pump. (CP3)
2. Timing has been checked.
3. New camshaft and crankshaft sensor.
4. Replaced all injectors with remanufactured ones.

I think pretty much the whole system has already been overhauled and pulling what little hair I have left.

Does anybody have any idea what the problem could be?

DieselJeepLuvr · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:36 pm

Hook up a clear hose to your filter housing outlet and check for air (assuming you have a lift pump installed) you could have a bad o-ring at the fuel tank or elsewhere.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:16 pm

Air in Fuel!
You need to install a intank fuel lift pump. This vehicle did not come from the factory with a lift pump installed, but it already does have all the wiring up to under the rear seat, the relays, and the logic in the computer to operate a lift pump.
Many owners of these vehicles have done this to cure air in fuel issues forever.
If you search this forum, you can find many threads and posts about this subject.

See these:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26385

http://www.auerbach.ca/kj/lift_pump/default.html
There are many more if you search. :wink:

You can try this: Pump up the manual fuel priming pump on top of the fuel filter head until it gets good and hard and then bleed the air out of the system using the bleeder valve. Repeat this until no air come out of the bleeder valve, then pump it up good and hard and see if it will start.

And if you have not read the NOOB Guide, you should do so, it will give you a lot of information on this vehicle.
Sam's CRD Noob Guide:

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

WWDiesel wrote:

Air in Fuel!
You need to install a intank fuel lift pump. This vehicle did not come from the factory with a lift pump installed, but it already does have all the wiring up to under the rear seat, the relays, and the logic in the computer to operate a lift pump.
Many owners of these vehicles have done this to cure air in fuel issues forever.
If you search this forum, you can find many threads and posts about this subject.

See these:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26385

http://www.auerbach.ca/kj/lift_pump/default.html
There are many more if you search. :wink:

You can try this: Pump up the manual fuel priming pump on top of the fuel filter head until it gets good and hard and then bleed the air out of the system using the bleeder valve. Repeat this until no air come out of the bleeder valve, then pump it up good and hard and see if it will start.

And if you have not read the NOOB Guide, you should do so, it will give you a lot of information on this vehicle.
Sam's CRD Noob Guide:

Thanks for chipping in.
To rule out the filter head I dropped the cp3 inlet hose into an external fuel canister.
The pump sucked fine/fast but still wouldn't ignite.
Stumped here.

Is there anything else I could check?
What if the glowplugs were fault, would that hinder ignition?

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

Did a leak test on the reconditioned injectors. I'm no expert but this looks like a lot after 4 minutes running not?
Not sure what the tolerances on these things are either.

[img]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QWHakdXCKxGpGnbKA

[/img]

DieselJeepLuvr · **Posted:** Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:03 pm

roamer wrote:

To rule out the filter head I dropped the cp3 inlet hose into an external fuel canister.
The pump sucked fine/fast but still wouldn't ignite.
Stumped here.

Hopefully you were sucking up clean fuel.

Was this leak test on the injectors return lines? What do you mean running 4 minutes? I thought you said it wouldn't start?

DieselJeepLuvr · **Posted:** Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:28 pm

If you are testing the injectors return volume unplug the cam sensor. Plumb the individual return lines into glass vials, crank for 10 seconds. All injectors should be within 3 ml of one another. I suppose you could crank for 100 seconds and use 30 ml as your benchmark. Any injector exceeding this volume is considered bad.

Looking at your pic I would guess two of those injectors are bad but without knowing the volume difference and cranking time I'm just speculating. Also I'm curious where you got your refurbished injectors as I'm only aware of one company in the US authorized to do this per Bosch and IMHO NO common rail injectors are worth rebuilding. I'm a firm believer in biting the bullet and just buying new.

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

DieselJeepLuvr wrote:

roamer wrote:

To rule out the filter head I dropped the cp3 inlet hose into an external fuel canister.
The pump sucked fine/fast but still wouldn't ignite.
Stumped here.

Hopefully you were sucking up clean fuel.

Was this leak test on the injectors return lines? What do you mean running 4 minutes? I thought you said it wouldn't start?

Yeah, clean diesel and on the return lines.
It doesn't start with the turn of the key on it's own.
It does start when primed with ether.

DieselJeepLuvr · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:20 pm

Please don't use ether. It does bad things to diesel engines. Just out of curiosity. What is the ambient temperature where your Jeep is located?

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:13 pm

roamer wrote:

Hi all,
Hoping ya'll are prepared to help a Dutch guy get the answer to solving my mystery problem.

So, I own a 2005 2.8 KJ CRD. And up until recently had no problems worth mentioning. Then, end of last year, my Jeep started bucking and having a rough time starting. It progressed to stalling mid driving and wouldn't start directly. After say 5 minutes it would.
Now it won't start at all! Or Ignite actually. When I turn the key it will turn over but just won't ignite/start running. It will start upon key when I prime with ether.
When it run all is fine, I can drive it it just as normal.
No codes.

A summary of what has already been done:

1. New high pressure pump. (CP3)
2. Timing has been checked.
3. New camshaft and crankshaft sensor.
4. Replaced all injectors with remanufactured ones.

I think pretty much the whole system has already been overhauled and pulling what little hair I have left.

Does anybody have any idea what the problem could be?

You need to try removing the return tube off the pressure control solenoid at the end of the rail. When you crank, there should be no fuel flowing out of the pipe fitting on the end of the rail. If there is, the solenoid needs replacing.
Also the flexible fuel line from the filter to the CP3 may have degraded & so very small pieces of black rubber have found their way into the CP3. This may have found their way into the cascade valve & so caused low feed pressure to the high-pressure elements. The specs of black rubber look like what you see if you have fungus in your diesel. Using cheap diesel with a high % of biodiesel may cause fuel hose degradation.
I have had the same symptoms as you for the past year & are still working on it. I sometimes get a code for large fuel leak when it dies.
It looks like over time too much fuel starts returning & so eventually the rail pressure is too low to start.
Be aware that the fuel quantity solenoid on the CP3 does nothing during starting & so is unlikely to cause the problem.
Please continue to post about how you get on.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:51 pm

Are you sure your injectors are firing?
If you have air, adequate fuel rail pressure, injectors firing, compression, and engine has correct valve timing, the engine should start.
If it doesn't one of the above is missing! You must rule out each one and determine which one missing.
A simple Noid test light set will tell you if computer is firing injectors. The Noid test light senses the electrical impulses sent by the ECM at the injector connector.

Lots of things can prevent the injectors from firing, if the ECM is missing any of several inputs, it will not send a signal to fire injectors.
The list is quite long, but if the injectors are not getting a signal from the ECM to fire, each item must be checked to determine which one is missing.

Maybe this will be of help to you?

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

DieselJeepLuvr wrote:

Please don't use ether. It does bad things to diesel engines. Just out of curiosity. What is the ambient temperature where your Jeep is located?

I know, tried to avoid but had to get the thing running in order to perform the bubble test with the transparent hose.
It's around 6⁰C/~42⁰F over here.

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

layback40 wrote:

roamer wrote:

Hi all,
Hoping ya'll are prepared to help a Dutch guy get the answer to solving my mystery problem.

So, I own a 2005 2.8 KJ CRD. And up until recently had no problems worth mentioning. Then, end of last year, my Jeep started bucking and having a rough time starting. It progressed to stalling mid driving and wouldn't start directly. After say 5 minutes it would.
Now it won't start at all! Or Ignite actually. When I turn the key it will turn over but just won't ignite/start running. It will start upon key when I prime with ether.
When it run all is fine, I can drive it it just as normal.
No codes.

A summary of what has already been done:

1. New high pressure pump. (CP3)
2. Timing has been checked.
3. New camshaft and crankshaft sensor.
4. Replaced all injectors with remanufactured ones.

I think pretty much the whole system has already been overhauled and pulling what little hair I have left.

Does anybody have any idea what the problem could be?

You need to try removing the return tube off the pressure control solenoid at the end of the rail. When you crank, there should be no fuel flowing out of the pipe fitting on the end of the rail. If there is, the solenoid needs replacing.
Also the flexible fuel line from the filter to the CP3 may have degraded & so very small pieces of black rubber have found their way into the CP3. This may have found their way into the cascade valve & so caused low feed pressure to the high-pressure elements. The specs of black rubber look like what you see if you have fungus in your diesel. Using cheap diesel with a high % of biodiesel may cause fuel hose degradation.
I have had the same symptoms as you for the past year & are still working on it. I sometimes get a code for large fuel leak when it dies.
It looks like over time too much fuel starts returning & so eventually the rail pressure is too low to start.
Be aware that the fuel quantity solenoid on the CP3 does nothing during starting & so is unlikely to cause the problem.
Please continue to post about how you get on.

Sorry to hear you have the same issue.
Was reading this thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=92507 and there the solenoid was mentioned too.
Thanks for pointing it out. It's next on my list to check.
Good tip on the fuel line, will check that too.

Unlike you I get no codes whatsoever but the CEL came on yesterday. No idea why and still no codes.
Yes, I wil definitely continue posting.

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

WWDiesel wrote:

Are you sure your injectors are firing?
If you have air, adequate fuel rail pressure, injectors firing, compression, and engine has correct valve timing, the engine should start.
If it doesn't one of the above is missing! You must rule out each one and determine which one missing.
A simple Noid test light set will tell you if computer is firing injectors. The Noid test light senses the electrical impulses sent by the ECM at the injector connector.

Lots of things can prevent the injectors from firing, if the ECM is missing any of several inputs, it will not send a signal to fire injectors.
The list is quite long, but if the injectors are not getting a signal from the ECM to fire, each item must be checked to determine which one is missing.

Maybe this will be of help to you?

Thanks for posting. That's quite a list to go through but will have to.
Already checked a few but this diagram will help checking all connections/signals.
First on my to do list is checking the fuel rail solenoid.

Billybob · **Posted:** Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:02 am

When all else fails to get a 2005 CRD to run properly....try to find a Front Control Module... ie..an FCM!

This is a small rectangular component with one wiring connector.....sits sort of behind the Battery.

This is very little information on what this FCM does...the Theory of Ops states that it is merely a conduit for re-directing all of the Serial Data Busses.

The connector on it may get dirty as it is exposed to the elements so it is worth giving the Male and Female contacts a good clean!

The fact is that the 2005 KJ CRD is the only KJ to have this module and the local Breaker Yards tend to have none available!

Would be nice to find a nearby owner of a 2005 CRD to try a quick Swap Over of the FCM!

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

A new candidate, thanks for pointing it out.

Meanwhile been thinking the starter might be sing it's umpf.
Anyone know what the crank speed should be?

DieselJeepLuvr · **Posted:** Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:27 pm

Was asking about temp because I put in new Itechno glow plugs once and when it got cold out it would not start.

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

Ok, replaced the rail solenoid.
No joy.

At a loss here.
Below the readings when hooked up to the rail pressure sensor.
No idea of it'll help but all outta ideas here.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UR5U7dbjWuxBuVLC7

roamer · **Joined:** Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm **Posts:** 28

Beginning to suspect the starter motor is on it's way out.
It does 220-230 rpm when cranking.
This seems low to me for a diesel.
I couldn't find any info on how fast it should be cranking.
Anybody know if there a threshold?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:41 pm

Question? Is the starter motor itself failing or is it the starter solenoid on top the the starter motor?
Need to determine if the problem is electrical or mechanical. Have you load tested your battery? Low battery voltage or a weak battery cell will cause slow starter speeds and impede starter power.

You definitely need to connect a voltmeter to the positive lug on the starter and see how low the voltage is dropping to when the starter motor is engaged.
Amps go up exponentially as battery voltage drops, so a low voltage situation could be killing your starter.

As the battery voltage drops, it’s internal resistance increases due to chemical actions of the battery plates. This battery resistance increase limits the available battery current and reduces the amount of power delivered to the starter motor. Now the starter motor is not getting the voltage that it is designed for, so it starts dragging (arcing across the armature windings) and repeated occurrences will shorten the life of the starter motor very quickly. Weak batteries will destroy starter motors over time because of the excessive current draw and armature arcing due to low cranking voltage. The wires going from the battery to the starter motor also have resistance that adds to the impedance of current flow in low voltage situations.

Have you tested the starter relay in the Power Management Center under the hood? Try swapping relays say with one of the like size relays.
High-amperage feed circuit that feeds the starter motor (700 amperes - diesel engine)

See Section 8F - page 32 STARTING SYSTEM KJ in the online 2005 FSM (Factory Service Manual)

FSM wrote:

STARTER MOTOR - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING, starting on page 39
2005JeepKJServiceManual.pdf

Getting desperate, no ignition.

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