Towing question

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:54 pm

My mom wants her 2001 BMW 325 (two wheel drive) driven from Seattle down to her in Phoenix. I was thinking about trailering it down with my CRD. My question is about weight. The car is close to 4000lbs, and a Uhaul trailer would be between 1000 and 1500lbs. Knowing the 5000lb towing limit would you guys suggest this or not? Ive got a Suncoast/transco and Inmotion so there shouldnt be any tranny issues if I pull her out of OD on the steep hills.

Thanks.

mag03kj · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:57 pm

I would try it! But thats just me...why not use a dolly? I wouldnt use a car hauler trail if i was renting one!

RTStabler51 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:19 pm

Yes, but IMO make sure you have trailer brakes!

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:05 pm

I thought about a dolly. Less weight less expensive. But Im not sure I like having to keep the key on and the transmission of the car in nuetral for the entire trip.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:27 pm

The dolly problem, is the BMW trailing arm independent rear suspension.
You have a good chance of trashing out her rear tires when you run the front wheels onto the dolly ramps, it changes the rear alignment geometry for the worst.
I had a '71 VW bus I used a dolly to tow once and the rear tires got trashed in less than 200 miles. The back end would sway from side to side and was not an enjoyable experience. When I towed the same VW bus with a tow bar, I had no problems and it towed like a dream for hundreds of miles.
Other cars with out trailing arm independent rear suspension will not have issues with tow dollies and are fine to tow, my wife's TDI towed OK with a dolly.
The trailer with surge brakes is the best and safest option.
Tow bar is second if there is a place to hook it up with out trashing out the front of the car.

If the BMW is an automatic, better use the trailer or remove the driveshaft.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:32 pm

I towed a modified 4x4 Toyota truck on a 2,200 lb. flatbed trailer and my CRD didn't even know it was there. That was my previous CRD that was BONE stock. So you will be fine.

Stabler nailed the important part...be SURE the trailer has electric brakes, and that you have a controller in the cab to make stopping safer. With adequate brakes...the CRD will tow that like a champ.

jeepdan · **Posted:** Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:36 pm

Make sure you can get a weight distributing hitch to use with the rental trailer. It is a must!

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:48 am

jeepdan wrote:

Make sure you can get a weight distributing hitch to use with the rental trailer. It is a must!

Question, wont a dual axle car trailer take all the weight off of the hitch anyway?

Secondly, what is a weight distributing hitch?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:46 am

A weight distributing hitch is a way to lighten your wallet and use junk engineering to counter one simple mistake - The person loading the trailer was too dumb to do it correctly.

Trailer sway is caused by too much weight (improperly loaded trailer) pushing down on the ball of the towing vehicle, creating a lever effect that lightens the front wheels of the towing vehicle. This makes the steering VERY twitchy, and the slightest crossbreeze can push against the side of the trailer and create a nasty sway that cannot be recovered from.

The "common assertion" is that you need a longer wheelbase vehicle to make towing safe. BS. The longer wheelbase means the "lever" is longer, and the front wheels do not get lightened by ball weight.

Equally BS is that a weight distributing hitch will cure this initial stupidity. The ball-and-trailer-tongue are a system. Think of them as a straight bar with a pivot in the middle. IF the trailer is loaded properly, that bar will be perfectly horizontal with the road underneath. All forces are parallel - Forward pulling. IF the trailer tongue is too heavy (more than 100-200 lbs) then the center of that bar (the ball) will be a lower point than the two ends... The lever effect. Now, pulling has to FIRST act to straighten the bar (lifting vertically) then it can pull forward. If you take the pull forces away (stopping) the ball will instantly try to sink, lifting the front wheels, and potentially trying to jackknife your trailer VERTICALLY.

A weight distributing hitch is a set of chains and arms that attempt to add strength to the ball-and-tongue system and keep them horizontal at all times. This is not a good idea, as it does NOT fix the underlying problem - You loaded your trailer incorrectly.

European Liberty CRDs are rated at 7000 lbs towing. I have pulled that with my US CRD... As they are the SAME EXACT VEHICLE, with no problems at all. I have also put 1200 lbs of tongue weight onto my CRD. I wouldn't suggest that, but my CRD put up with it. Yes, the front wheels were very light on the road.

Two things I would suggest you do: Forget the weight distributing hitch, it will never do anything for you for two reasons - You can't use it on a rental trailer (potential damage of the finish that you don't need to incur) and a car-hauler DOES properly balance the load by design.
The second suggestion: Don't tell the "whole truth" to U-haul when you are renting the trailer. The people at the rental shops are NOT capable of making an independent decision about allowing a rental even though we all know it is perfectly capable. They are ONLY allowed to use a computer program to decide FOR THEM if it is a "recommended combination" and if not... You get no rental. Their system is ONLY set up to allow rentals where the weight of the trailer does not exceed about 70% of the towing vehicle, and in many cases, their system only counts cylinders rather than vehicle capability.

So you may have to tell them that you have a V-6 gasser (YUCK) and you SHOULD tell them that you intend on towing a 67 VW Beetle. That car weighs almost nothing, and will get past their electronic gatekeepers perfectly.

They will not ask to see the towed vehicle, so once you have the trailer, you are free to set it up and go.

I can tell you all sorts of fun stories about tow dollies... The moral of them all however: They were invented by the devil, and should NEVER be used to tow anything. Tow dollies really suck the wet mango.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:34 am

geordi wrote:

A weight distributing hitch is a way to lighten your wallet and use junk engineering to counter one simple mistake - The person loading the trailer was too dumb to do it correctly.

The "common assertion" is that you need a longer wheelbase vehicle to make towing safe. BS. The longer wheelbase means the "lever" is longer, and the front wheels do not get lightened by ball weight.

I agree with the first statement 100%. Loading the trailer properly will cure sway in most cases. I've never had a problem with sway...even with nearly 7,000 lbs. hooked to the CRD.

The second statement is wrong. A longer wheelbase vehicle is MUCH safer to tow with. If I had a choice between my Dodge Ram Quad Cab or my Liberty to tow a 5,000 lb. trailer in the rain with....I'd pick the Ram every single time. Any Jeep is squirrely on the road due to the short wheelbase. The thing that makes Jeeps so great offroad is the same thing that makes them less safe on the road.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:25 am

I don't think any CRD towing discussion is complete without a link to Danoid's trailer
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=233890#p233890

and KJ Country's wiring install
http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26895&highlight=trailer+hitches

Wobbly · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:18 pm

A statics analysis of how a weight distributing hitch works:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fusea ... 265335.cfm

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:18 pm

Ive only towed a couple times. Is there some get-it-right procedure for positioning the car on the trailer???

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:47 pm

Recommended pratice is to have between 10 to 15% of the trailer's weight on the hitch. So the tongue weight gets up there very quickly. With our CRD's it's required to have a WDH at 300 pounds.

The purpose of a WDH is to spread the load over all the axels, trailer and TV

I've seen F350's towing dual axel trailers with bobcats on them having the tail wagging the dog situation more then a few time. I also saw a single axel mobile compressor, the kind used for jack hammers attatched to a large gas company truck. The hitch was too high and when the hitch on those compressors gets up past level the tongue weight becomes negative. That caused the truck, I guessing 2 and a half tons, to get wagged all over the freeway :-)r

This is a situation I never want to encounter and will do what's necessary to prevent. My travel trailer weights 3500# and has a tongue weight of 400# and I have a single bar WDH and it handles like a dream :jester:

I wonder how many experienced trailer owners are here thinking to themselves "there's another one" :dizzy:

RTStabler51 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:05 pm

CRD Joe wrote:

Ive only towed a couple times. Is there some get-it-right procedure for positioning the car on the trailer???

I try to just have enough weight forward to see that there is weight on my rear axle of the jeep. This will put my trailer at about a 90-95% level mark if that makes sense. I've had cars too far back and it ain't fun when it yanks the lil jeep around.

Wobbly · **Posted:** Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:56 pm

CRD Joe wrote:

Ive only towed a couple times. Is there some get-it-right procedure for positioning the car on the trailer???

To see whether your load is within the CRD ratings use this procedure described by Ron Gratz, a Moderator at RV.Net :

"To get the maximum information about your TV/TT combination and how well your weight distribution system is working, you need data from three weighings. Second and third weighings usually are done at a lower cost.

And, you need to find a scales with at least three separate weighing platforms so you can separately measure all three axle loads at the same time. Most, perhaps all, CAT scales have this feature.

....

First, the TV and TT should be loaded approximately as they would be for camping.

Second, the weight distribution system should be adjusted as it normally would be for towing.

Then, I would do the following:

Weighing #1 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA1"
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA1"
Let TT Axles Load be "TT1"

Then, while in same position on scales, take
Weighing #2 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Not Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA2"
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA2"
Let TT Axles Load be "TT2"

Then, drive off scales and drop TT. Return to scales and take
Weighing #3 -- TV only -- TT Not Attached
Let Front Axle Load be "FA3"
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA3"

From the above values, you can calculate:

TV weight = FA3 + RA3

Gross Combined Weight = (FA1 + RA1 + TT1)
{should also be equal to (FA2 + RA2 + TT2) if scale weights are correct}

TT Weight = Gross Combined Weight - TV Weight

Tongue Weight = (FA2 + RA2) - (FA3 + RA3)

Load Transferred to TT Axles
when WD System in Activated = TT1 - TT2

This procedure should get you on and off the scales fairly quickly and still provide all the data you need.

Ron "

nalu · **Posted:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:08 am

Don't forget that you gotta be able to stop whatever you hook up back there. I can pull more than I can stop - without trailer brakes. I don't have trailer brakes, so I'll say no more.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:27 am

Stopping it isn't a problem. IIRC, all the Uhaul car haulers (4-wheels up) have what are known as surge brakes. That is a big idiot-proof piston that the ball cup is attached to. When you step on the brakes of the tow vehicle, the trailer tries to "push through" the ball into your back seat. The piston compresses due to this, and just like the piston in your brake pedal, it moves brake juice and stops the trailer.

Good system, if imprecise. You can't use it for "drag braking" where you manually apply the trailer's brakes (electric) to drag down the tow vehicle's speed. BUT a surge system is GREAT in a panic stop situation - Those are MUCH stronger than electric brakes for heavy loads.

fastRob · **Posted:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:58 am

1. Good diesel Libby, a Tow Monsta!
2. I like lights, electric brakes and have a 7 point trailer plug on the back of my CRD. The lights and brake sensor line are a bit of a pip to install, see how too posts.
3. Have a 7,000 car trailer and 25' Airstream. I prefer a well set up distribution hitch.
4. Do not like surge brakes. How do you use surge brakes to a stop going backwards?
I delivered firewood ONCE without e brakes, a very hairy experience.
5. The driver is responsible, that is you dude, good luck.

Wobbly · **Posted:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:11 am

Here's a post to another forum which details the weighing of our CRD with travel trailer:

"Here are the tow weights for our 2006 Jeep Liberty diesel with our
2007 Sunline T-1950 travel trailer. Hitch is a Hensley Arrow. Black, grey, and fresh water tanks about 3/4 full. Tank and 1/2 of propane. Jeep fuel tank about 10 gallons. Yamaha 2400 generator in back of Jeep. Two passengers. Full load of food, etc.

Weights were taken on an Oregon DOT highway scale using the 3 step procedure of Ron Gratz at
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fusea ... m#21781221:

Weighing #1 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA1" =2450
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA1" =3100
Let TT Axles Load be "TT1" =4500

Then, while in same position on scales, take
Weighing #2 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Not Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA2" =2350
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA2" =3250
Let TT Axles Load be "TT2" = 4450

Then, drive off scales and drop TT. Return to scales and take
Weighing #3 -- TV only -- TT Not Attached
Let Front Axle Load be "FA3" =2650
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA3" =2300

From the above values, you can calculate:

TV weight = FA3 + RA3 =4950

Gross Combined Weight = (FA1 + RA1 + TT1) = 2450+3100+4500 = 10,050
{should also be equal to (FA2 + RA2 + TT2) if scale weights are correct}

TT Weight = Gross Combined Weight - TV Weight = 10,050 -4950 = 5100

Tongue Weight = (FA2 + RA2) - (FA3 + RA3) = (2350+3250) - (2650+2300) = 650

Load Transferred to TT Axles
when WD System in Activated = TT1 - TT2 =4500 -4450 =50

GCVW of the Jeep is 10,100 so the combo is very close to exceeding this value. Axle weight limits for the Jeep are not exceeded.

Considering that the export version of the Liberty diesel, which is called the Cherokee in Europe, has a tongue weight rating of 740# and a tow weight rating of 7400#, and has the same hitch receiver as the US version, this combination seems to be OK for weight.

The combination certainly handles well, probably in large part due to the Hensley hitch."

Towing question

Who is online