Turbo rebuilding..... Might just be possible?

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:41 pm

Turbo rebuilds (according to Garrett) are neither suggested nor possible, as they do not sell any parts for our VNT-equipped hairdryers.

Some of you may know that a few months ago, I suffered yet another stock turbo failure. This one was less catastrophic, as it started making noise rather than just seizing up and snapping the turbine shaft off. I was able to discover the oil leak before anything had happened to the engine, and top it off so I could limp it home. The turbo shaft had developed a small amount of side-to-side play, and only just barely contacted the housing on the compressor side, doing a miniscule polishing rather than any gouging of the housing. The compressor wheel vanes are *just barely* sharpened on the edges from the contact.

So... This turbo was pulled from service when I discovered the shaft play (I estimate about 1/64 to maybe 1/32 of an inch side to side, but I consider ANY to be unacceptable) and shelved while I looked at options. The "brand new" turbo went back into my engine, where it resumed some funky performance problem it has had since the day I bought it - Papaindigo and Lgoodbar have now both experienced this turbo's behavior, and might be able to better describe it than I can. Simply put, it doesn't build boost in a linear progression, and it likes dumping the boost to 10psi or less on shifting to third - every time. If you slow down from 40+ to less than 30, then go back onto the pedal... You don't get boost, you get a huge cloud of smoke behind you and no vroom. The boost rises VERY slowly while doing this, until it hits 19/20... Then spikes to 25+ and you rocket away. Very bad turbo, but I don't know why.

I was informed by Garrett (through an injector service shop I trust) that the only option was a new unit (no core charge) for $1080. Declined, thanks. I heard on here about a possible rebuild kit from BAE for about $60, $72 with shipping. I'm willing to gamble with that amount, so I ordered it, and after a 5 day shipping delay, he mailed it out and I finally got the parts kit - With no instructions at all.

Papaindigo was here in Savannah to learn and assist with the timing belt job on Lgoodbar's CRD (Which was a rousing success, and a lot of fun) and had offered to help out if time permitted to play with the rebuild kit. We had time today, so here is the full writeup of the rebuild.

The turbo cartridge came apart fairly easily, and didn't show any obvious shaft damage on any of the components. *most* of the parts were in the kit, but there were 3 minor issues or changes - The "big ring" under the top was a slightly different design, the original had a small washer that set into the top (compressor side) and closely surrounded the shaft, while just under that was a small ring around the shaft that filled the rest of the space of the big ring's larger shaft hole. The new version retained a small oil hole in the underside, but had no inset for the washer. The small ring fit perfectly within the larger shaft hole just as on the original... BUT, there was no replacement small ring in the kit. I had to re-use that part.

In the top cover (the backing plate of the compressor side, where the 4 screws are visible) there is a top-hat shaped washer or bearing that fits into a larger hole in the cover, with a snap ring to retain it. The kit had some similar items, but the "brim" on the top hat perfectly seated into a recess on the underside of the cover. The replacement kit's option was a larger brim, and would not fit - I also reused this component.

Under the "big ring" is the main sleeve bearing. This is (somewhat to my surprise) held in a fixed position by a small disc with two pins sticking out of it. Both these components WERE in the parts kit, along with the new big ring. The original sleeve bearing was identical to the new one, save for three narrow grooves near the middle of the bearing running around the outside - The grooves had no holes or other channels in them, and appear almost cosmetic. The retaining pin / disc part was identical to the new part.

Re-assembly was not difficult, and we cleaned everything with q-tips and re-oiled them with fresh tips and oil before fitting it all back together. The result - The center cartridge now has ZERO side to side play, and PapaIndigo described the end-to-end shaft movement as "half a sheet of paper thickness" or so.

For me, the real test is answering the question, "would I be willing to install this in my CRD and run it".... And I have to say yes. I'm not going to install this at the moment, just because while the other turbo IS being annoying, I am working on getting one of Keiths and use this as a spare in the meantime. I do think that repairing these turbos is a difficult choice that will need to be made with consideration of how badly the old one failed... But if they are caught before any real damage is done... It should be possible to rebuild them. Just scribe the housings before you disassemble the two shells, B/c the position DOES MATTER for the function of the vacuum motor. Also don't adjust anything that is painted shut, like the two VNT stop screws. That is just asking for problems, and these are fragile enough as it is.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:29 pm

Info bookmarked, thanks.
What is the BAE kit # for this?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:37 pm

The only thing I'd add to geordi's remarks is 1) as is not unusual we could have payed a bit better attention to the order of disassembly which would have saved some interesting chat during reassembly but it all worked out (advantage I suppose of multiple eyes and memories); 2) the kit contained a huge rubber "O" ring like washer and a smaller one that was actually square in cross section, we used the smaller one in the reassembly to replace the orginal which is a bit hard to see and required a bit of work to get unstuck and removed; 3) the kit also included a variety of bolts 4 of which could have been used in reassembly but we just reused the originals.

I'd also add that prior to the rebuild there was a lot of end to end shaft play and geordi correctly describes my perception of the after end to end play.

Would I install it? I personally don't know, geordi knows more about this than I who had never seen the inside of a turbo until this weekend, but I will say the difference in pre/post shaft play and smoothness was most impressive.

Note this is not a "rebuild" in the sense of an engine rebuild with bored cylinders, honed cams, new pistons/rings, etc. Rather it's more like replacing a bearing that had begun to go before the wheel hub was damaged beyond repair. As such it apears to be a success.

yrkcrd · **Posted:** Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:06 pm

There are a couple of shops too that do rebuild for ~$350 that a lot of the VW TDI people use on the VNT's.

I can post up the links later if people want the info...

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:35 pm

Got a picture of all the parts it comes with?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:01 pm

I do not have pictures but geordi can probably post pictures of the parts we took out and either replaced or did not need to replace. The kit came with a lot of stuff that's not needed for our turbos.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:02 am

Which parts were used? Starting from the row in this image with the big brass-looking tube... That tube is the journal bearing. This is the money-maker, and the main part that was needed. It fit snuggly on the shaft, where the old didn't feel terribly loose... But also didn't feel this solid.
Next to that are the two "top hats" that fit into the top cover... Neither matched the original part, we re-used the original with its snap ring. The fourth part in that row is the journal bearing anti-rotation pin. This matched perfectly with the original and was replaced with new. Not sure where that nut goes, wasn't used. Next row: The big brass disc is a thrust bearing. This was replaced from the original, and was almost exactly the same, save for a small washer / bearing in the original that was not present in the kit (so reused) and a design change removing a recessed disc retainer from the original thrust bearing, and changing it to just a solid disc with the open center hole - No retainer needed. Except for the smaller of the two rubber rings, no other parts matched besides the bolts, but the bolts weren't stretch bolts... So I just re-used the originals. The list of replacement parts needed is very small, but this kit is designed for multiple models of turbo, so there are going to be some non-matching parts.

Here's the link to the kit we used, I know several people had asked for this, and credit goes to Wobbly for pointing it out to me in another thread.

http://baeturbosystems.com/turboservicekitformitsubishitd04td04l49177-80410oereplacement-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-2-2-1-4-2.aspx

nissanfrontier · **Joined:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:09 pm **Posts:** 145

I have not looked at Turbo up close however is there a way to add oil tank on top turbo for oiling needs? Maybe disconnect what ever is there currently and just drip new mobil one 0w40. Maybe these failures are due to dirty black oil

yrkcrd · **Posted:** Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:01 pm

nissanfrontier wrote:

I have not looked at Turbo up close however is there a way to add oil tank on top turbo for oiling needs? Maybe disconnect what ever is there currently and just drip new mobil one 0w40. Maybe these failures are due to dirty black oil

They actually use pressurized oil to make sure the journal bearing is lubed as it is an oil bearing.

Much like the bearing for a crank or connecting rod needs pressurized oil.

Good thought though, that's why so many people try to get rid of the egr as it contributes to the contaminants of the oil.

smokinbubba · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm **Posts:** 29

just lost my 4th turbo today....about ready to dump this thing for a yota. This time i believe it was another failed bearing. Who rebuilds these things for $350?? My local shop quoted me $900. Dealer wants $2200 for a reman unit. Mopar parts americs wantr $1600. All unaceptable in my opinion. This engine has around 85k on the clock. Less than 5000mi on amsoil change. Very disappointing.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:55 pm

smokinbubba wrote:

just lost my 4th turbo today.... This engine has around 85k on the clock.

Okay - there's something seriously wrong in this statement - lots of folks over 100K on the original Turbo - so you have another problem - oil supply? - driving/cooldown technique? bad rebuilds - don't just swap parts - try to figure out why.

smokinbubba · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm **Posts:** 29

original turbo was oversped due to stuck vanes which cooked bearing. Replaced with a used turbo. Turbo#2 lost oil seal possibly due to extended oil change interval w/amsoil. replaced with another used unit. #3 in in vehicle now and is very loud. sounds like another bearing. This one was never oversped, thru no codes, nothing. So I guess I mis spoke, I am about to install #4, I have yet to cook 4.....yet. Also, I know another member that has gone thru more than three turbos so this is not an isolated issue. The turbos in this application are junk. I can say that they do not like dirty oil or biodiesel.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:29 pm

SmokinBubba, you and I are in similar situations, but you are braver than I am to keep installing used turbos.

I would STRONGLY suggest you contact Keith at GDE and discuss his turbo upgrade. He has a batch in process right now, I don't know how many but I know at least 2 are spoken for - One will be mine.

If you don't want to go that route, find your local Diesel Injection Service shop and see if they are a Garrett dealer. Garrett can source you DIRECTLY the exact turbo that you need for our CRD, and there is NO SUCH THING as a "dealer reman" turbo unit. Garrett DOES NOT REBUILD THESE TURBOS and there is NO CORE CHARGE on a dead unit. Anyone that IS rebuilding them is playing with fire, myself included. The two wheels have to be VERY closely balanced (like perfectly) with the speeds that this thing needs to rotate. Damage that causes contact or rebuilding could very easily throw the wheels out of balance, which will only destroy the next bearing too. Swapping wheels from one turbo to another (like a commercial rebuilder might possibly do) WILL NOT WORK because the compressor wheels have been precision-machined and trimmed for balance at the factory to match their shaft and turbine wheel. If the compressor wheel is damaged, the turbo is JUNK.

yrkcrd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:31 pm

Which amsoil oil are you using? And at what intervals? Ea oil filter as well?

I hate to say it but putting in a used turbo could just be asking for trouble.

Here is one place the VW TDI guys use:
http://shop.midwestturboconnection.com/ ... ing_c3.htm

smokinbubba · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm **Posts:** 29

YRK. Thanks for the link. I am using 10-30 heavy duty diesel (amsoil) was doing the 15k once a year extended change with a new filter every 6 mos. Been doing this on all my Cummins powered vehicles for 15yrs. with no problems. Last turbo was maybe 6 mos ago so probably 8k on the oil change.

I am done with this jeep. As soon as I figure out what to do about the turbo.... it is gone. Im going to find something more reliable. might even go gasser. between the CRD and the TDI troubles Ive had in the past 2 yrs, im over it... It seems that the only vehicle that is reliable on biodiesel is cummins powered. or mercedes.

Anybody know where I can find another used turbo?? If I were to keep it id look seriously into a GDE replacement but the bad taste is again in my mouth. You all know how it goes. Fool me once shame on you.....

ivan pancake · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:51 am

your problem is 10w30 heavy duty oil (oil for big trucks,buses, work mashines), manual tells you to use 0W40 or 5W40 SYNTETIC OIL, all xW30 oils are not true syntetic oils. These oils are mineral base with lots of additives and they lose there characteristics after couple tkm and are not suitable for extended oil change. Here in europe 95% off all sold cherokee´s (liberty´s) are crd and 60% off all new cars are diesels,and i rarely hear of turbo defect. You all are still young nation when comes to diesel engines(especially modern ones with turbos like ours CRD) forget all you know about cummins. DONT PLAY WITH OIL USE 0W40 or 5W40 true syntetic and drain it at max 10tkm. 10W30 maybe is ok for engine itself but for turbo definitly is not.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:19 am

That oil is NOT OK for the engine either. Period, full stop. YOU ARE KILLING YOUR OWN TURBOS with that oil! No wonder you have burned up so many of them!

I thought I was in a bad place with running an 8k mile oil change interval on full synthetic, but trying to get 15k on standard mineral oil that isn't even heavy enough for our engine? Crazy man!

Rotella Synthetic or Mobil One TURBO DIESEL Truck and SUV (Same as Mobil One Delvac Synth)... There is a REASON the product name says Turbo Diesel! It ain't there for marketing!

I can understand the frustration and the desire to get out of the vehicle, but in this case, you truly have no excuse for blaming the vehicle when you aren't even remotely following the rules for proper lubrication. The oiling holes in the turbo and the rod bearings are TINY. The holes in the main bearing for the turbo... See those periods I just typed? The oil holes aren't much bigger, seriously. When standard oil ages, it gets gummy and blocks up the oil passages. Then your turbo overheats and dies.

Change that oil, replace the turbo... And never replace it again, if you start running 5k mile changes with Mobil One or Rotella. There really is no excuse at all for standard oil in these engines. How much money on oil changes have you saved by spending it buying used turbochargers killed by bad oil?

yrkcrd · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:06 am

The amsoil is a true synthetic, as they use natural gas as the base for all of their oils.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/acd.aspx

With that being said I personally wouldn't be using a 30w oil unless it said so in the manual.

And with as dirty as these get with the EGR I would be getting an oil analysis done with the 15k oil interval even with the filter change as frequent as you are doing.

A lot of VAG cars VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, etc... have water cooler turbos and have more stable turbo temperatures as a result.
The Liberty CRD is not water cooled just air that is why it is so important to let them cool down before turning them off, and run a good oil as well.

Added** Another thing to thing about to is how long the cummins has been around versus the VM motor we have. I'm sure like stated above the VM motor has much smaller tolerances and is a completely different animal with DOHC, etc...**

smokinbubba · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm **Posts:** 29

Sorry, its 5-30 amsoil heavy duty diesel full synthetic. Id post a link but i dont think thats allowed.ive been running it since new 85k ago. Didnt have problems until 70k

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:17 am

So in 15k miles, you have burned up 3 turbos? Something is going on with your lubrication, and I would start by looking at the fact that it doesn't matter who's brand it is at this point, or how long you have run it... It isn't the correct weight. 30 weight isn't thick enough, and quite literally, the oil IS the entire bearing surface inside the turbo body. I can't explain why you haven't been killing them until now, but you are not using the correct oil now, start by changing that first.

Amsoil offers a warranty (IIRC) on damage that might result from using their oils, HOWEVER I know that the first thing they are going to look at is what is the required grade for the engine... And you aren't using it. So they would immediately void any claim because of that. A thinner oil doesn't have the structural strength to resist shearing apart under the heat stress in such a tight tolerance location like the turbo. I just rebuilt mine, and I don't think I could slide a sheet of paper in between the shaft and the bearing, the fit is *that perfect* in there. For the oil to protect and remove the friction heating that will happen... That oil film is barely going to be a few molecules thick. Oil that isn't strong enough will overheat and run out... And then the turbo has NOTHING protecting it and burns up.

Sound familiar yet?

Turbo rebuilding..... Might just be possible?

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