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 Post subject: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:30 am 
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I went for a drive tonight, the jeep was running great but lots of white smoke. I turned around and went home when I noticed this in the street lights. When I arrived at home I shut it down and there is lots of oil in the exhaust system. I did make it home before the low oil light came on, but tomorrow I will check how much oil is lost.

I have read some posts about turbos dying and I think that is what happened to me. What should I check tomorrow to verify what is wrong?

I like doing the work, I just don't want to fix what is not broken.

Thanks,
Phil

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:04 am 
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Did you feel a power loss? Any unusual noises? White smoke could be oil, could also be coolant. I know it is hard to tell at night. If the coolant bottle looks OK tomorrow, and the oil level checks out OK... Then you might have just lost a boost hose. Much more common problem than losing the turbo, and can offer some of the same symptoms. The smoke in that case would have been from excessive fuel (for the available air) since the computer would be thinking / fueling for the boosted level it was expecting based on the MAF. Hopefully you just opened a boost hose.

Have you done an EHM or some other mod to the CCV hose? If not - that makes the chances of a boost hose ripping even more likely.
FYI: You will have to remove both boost hoses to properly inspect them, and if you still have that 'Chinese finger puzzle' webbed mesh on them - Don't feel that you have to retain that on the new hoses. All it does is provide an easy surface for filth collection once the CCV oil gets forced through the walls of the hose. This is what rots the hoses out, and the mesh just enables the oil to remain on the surface longer, further eating the hoses.

Squeeze each hose all over, feeling for any soft spots or holes. They may be quite hard to locate, but the usual location is underneath the end that connects to the intake elbow / FCV on the driver's side hose. That is the one that usually opens up first.

Let us know what you find, and we can offer more exacting help.

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:36 am 
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As well as both of the turbo hoses, check the Cold Air Supply hose running from the air filter box running to the front of the Turbo. Usually it's broken or gummy on the bottom where the clamp is on it underneath what you can physically see on the intake side of the turbo.

Also check the inside of the turbo after you take this hose off for any play, just reach your thumb and finger inside the turbo and see if there's any movement.

The oil issue is of pretty serious concern, and makes me think the turbo did in fact crap out entirely. I'm really really concerned that your low oil light came on because when you burn that much oil out of the bottom end, bad things happen.

The turbo isn't hard to change, honestly, but it is expensive. Make sure when you remove the turbo you clean out the oil lines on the top and bottom, mine were very gummed up.

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:43 am 
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Bit of a update, I checked my oil level. But my oil light did NOT come on.


Image

and this is from sticking my finger up the tail pipe.
Image

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Nice fingerprint capture, CSI Stokes... :goink:

I dont like that dipstick level, that looks to be at least 3 quarts down, which does strongly suggest that your turbo ate it. Hopefully you haven't lost enough pressure or oil level to have damaged the bottom end bearings.

You still need to pull off all the hoses and have a poke into the front-facing turbo inlet to check the play. I'm going to figure that what you find will be more than "none" on the play scale. If / when you start looking for another turbo, find your local diesel injector repair shop, they will most likely be a Bosch shop in the heavy truck / industrial areas of town, and they will probably also be a Garrett distributor. These turbos should be about $1100 from one of the distributors, and there are NO official rebuilds (you don't want one anyway) and no core for the old one. If you hear either of those words from the seller, walk away. You don't know what they are selling, but it won't be a brand-new Garrett.

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:02 pm 
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I ordered a new turbo on Friday locally through Dubuque Diesel Injection Services, http://www.dubdiesel.com/site/, so hopefully it comes in early this week. The price was close to what you said it would be.

Today I had some time to get the hoses out and inspect them. After cleaning them in the sink (don't tell my girlfriend) I inspected them and they appear to be in good shape. I was not able to find any holes or tears in them.

However when taking the clean air hose from the air box, I did discoverer this:

Image

When comparing my air box lid to the one in the micro fiche, they appear to be different.

Image

This leaves me with a few questions.

Is the part number in the micro fiche the correct one I need?

and much more importantly,

When reading the directions to replace a turbo from the factory service manual, it time consuming. Does any one have a step by step on how to do this and a time estimate?

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:49 am 
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Rule #1... When in doubt, the FSM is wrong.

Your airbox is correct, but that damage is what happens when the airhose isn't all the way on and touching the MAF, and / or the hose clamp is gorilla'd when you tighten that clamp. Been there, broke that. Drove with it cracked for many many miles, wrapped badly in tape.

Now, on to the turbo swap. You might want to contact Papaindigo to see if he has a document outlining the procedure we followed for turbo removal in prep for the upgrade to the GDE turbo. Obviously you would not be doing the second half of the directions, but the removal parts would be quite helpful for you right now. In reference to your questions, refer to rule #1 frequently. You do NOT have to drain the AC or the radiator... Or start by removing the rear seats and all the tires from every vehicle in the area. I think the FSM adds in useless steps to everything as a way of punishing us for ever buying something they clearly did not want to sell or support. :banghead:

Anyway - Once the airbox and the air hoses are out of the engine, the next thing will be to unbolt the radiator bottle from the firewall. Don't unhook any hoses yet (or ever, for most of them) but flip the bottle on its end toward the passenger fender. There will be some maneuvering with this thing as you go, but the only line you might want / need to unhook from it (just to reposition it) is the smaller overflow hose that (IIRC) comes from the upper left (passenger) side of the bottle, and snakes under some of the AC stuff. Unhook it from the bottle, clear it from the obstructions, and put it back on. That finishes your work with that, save for pushing it around as needed. For a time estimate... I can do it now probably in about 3 hours (2 hours flat was my fastest time, but that was on my own 'not-everything-stock' engine) but you are probably looking at 5 hours for the whole job. It isn't terribly complex... Just tedious.

The directions from GDE / Papaindigo will be more help, and I'm also available for tech questions if you have any. When you PM Papaindgo, he can give you my number - I'd do it now but my laptop is just about out of power and so am I for tonight. :lol: Good luck, catch up with this as it progresses.

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Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:31 am 
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geordi's memory must be slipping or maybe it's just the time of night but he already posted a bit of turbo removal instructions at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63024 and the GDE turbo install instructions are helpful although you will have to ignore the steps such as cutting wiring and vacuum lines that relate to installation of the Stage II turbo.

Thoughts:
1. the coolant tank has 2, IIRC, nuts/bolts that hold it to the firewall that are visible at the top. What is hidden is that there is a flat metal flange underneath the tank that slides into a recesss in the bottom of the tank and prevents the tank from being lifted out when the nuts/bolts are undone. Instead you have to slide the tank forward off the metal flange before it can be removed. You might have to remove and reattach an obvious hose before flipping the tank out of the way toward the fender. Also removing the passenger side hood prop, use a stick of some sort at the front of the hood to hold it up, helps. EDIT - when you remount the tank you can simply sit it on top of the metal flange and install the top nuts/bolts if you don't want to hassle with getting the flange into the recess on the bottom of the tank.
2. the nuts/studs that hold the turbo to the engine are a real problem. The nuts are "crush" nuts (have some sort of odd thread that locks the nut in place) and the heat/cool cycle may have semi-welded them onto the studs. We broke at least 2 studs (weak OEM ones probably not even grade 5 which is grade of the replacement studs we used) getting the nuts off. I'd strongly recommend application, repeat as needed, of a good penetrating oil to the nut/stud assemblies at least 24 hrs before attempting turbo removal and replacement of the "crush" nuts with standard thread nuts and normal lock washers. Ideally replace the OEM studs with grade 5 ones if you can get the OEM studs off the engine.

Be sure the oil supply and return lines are clean inside if you are going to reuse them. Also don't forget to get new gaskets and copper crush washers.

I'll PM you geordi's phone #

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:56 pm 
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I plugged the block heater in, and sprayed PB Blaster on the threads, waited 2 hours, and the bolts came out very easily with minimal pressure. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I did the right things. Washers looked good, no issues.

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:09 pm 
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I spent some time today getting more taken apart while waiting for the turbo. I sprayed all the bolts/nuts on the turbo with some PB Blaster and probably will add some more tomorrow too.

This is what I used to get the exhaust clamp off, from the bottom up.

Image

And how far do you get the coolant bottle to tip, this is what I felt comfortable doing with out straining much.

Image

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Phil
2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:14 pm 
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I towed the jeep to my parents garage today and was able to get the old turbo off. I live about 3/4 of a mile from them, here is how we towed it.
Image

I pulled the exhaust off by unbolting between the muffler and the catalytic converter and lowered the transmission cross-member. This is how I was able to get the exhaust pipe out of the way to open up lots of room.

Image

From there I did almost all of the work from under the jeep. I removed the turbo Bracket, then the oil return line. Then I undid the banjo bolt up top, and started to undo the bolts that hold the turbo to the exhaust manifold. They were stubborn to remove but I did not have any of the nuts bring the studs out with them.

Image

All that remains is for me up my to pick my new turbo up tomorrow (if it comes in), install it, drain what oil is left in the engine, refill it and drive. :)


The only question I have is, since I did not take the turbo oil feed line off of the block, do I need to remove it and clean it, or should I just leave it there?

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:25 pm 
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I vote for removing it and cleaning it just to make sure it is good. As you know, it is the lifeblood of your turbo. If there is any doubt, REPLACE it! It is a lot cheaper to replace the oil feed line than to find out that you have oil starvation to the new turbo and have to replace it too after a pre-mature failure. Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:47 pm 
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I did get my new turbo today, but it did not come with any gaskets. When I was there he said he ordered a oil return gasket today and it will be there tomorrow. I also cleaned the feed and the return lines inside and out today.

I also have a few more questions.

This is my oil return,

Image

and this is the one pictured on idparts http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=117&products_id=3208

Image

Also on idparts, it is mentioned of crush washers on the engine side. http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=117&products_id=3209

Image


1. Is there any advantage of having a oil return that has a flexible section?

2. The description mentions crush washers on the engine side, I did not see those on mine, are they not pictured in the image above?

3. Is the gasket that goes between the exhaust manifold and the turbo reusable? (If it appears to be in good shape)

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:23 am 
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1. The turbo bolts to the engine and only moves to the extent the engine moves on the engine mounts hence I don't, offhand, see any particular benefit to a flex section in the oil return line and I honestly don't recall (it's boxed up but I can look if you want, drop me a PM/email if you do want) if my OEM return line was solid or not. I do know the GDE Stage II turbo oil return line has a flex section. So is there a benefit or not - IMHO not much if any but will it hurt no so if your existing return line is solid and clean internally I don't think the extra $s are worth it. FYI when the engine flexes the exhaust system, which is connected to the turbo flexes hence the flex section needs to stay in the exhaust system again IMHO.

2. The IDParts description has a "opps". The 2 copper crush washers go on the turbo side-1 on each side of the banjo bolt connections of the oil feed line to the turbo. The engine side connection is an odd round fitting that mates with a fitting on the upper oil gallery of the block and is friction sealed using a nut on that fitting. The washers do show, barely, in the picture - look closely below the right end of the fitting.

3. gasket can probably be reused but after all that work and $s why try to save ca. $20?

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:30 am 
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I put the new turbo on tonight and installed the oil feed line. I will buy a torque wrench tomorrow, ( I have wanted one for a while anyway) and will torque all the nuts to spec before continuing.
Hopefully I will be really productive tomorrow and will be able to finish it.

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 pm 
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I know this has nothing do to with your turbo but I noticed your name is 65 corvair and I was wondering if you still had the vair. Good luck with your turbo.

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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:12 am 
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[url][/url]Great News Everyone!

I finished installing the turbo and got everything buttoned up. I ran it for a bout 10 minutes and did not see any oil leaks. I will take it for a drive during the day tomorrow and see how it does. I would like to thank all the people here for their help, I could not have done it without you guys.


And for saabflyer, I still have the vair. Right now the engine and the rest of the car are sitting in 2 different barns at my parent's farm. My goal is to get it to be a safe driver for this summer.
I rebuilt the engine 2 years ago, now for the rest.
Engine Video: http://youtu.be/NHoiwUMQ-qI

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:17 am 
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The biggest difference between the flexible oil return line and rigid one, is that the flange on top of the rigid one can slide down the tube as you are trying to install it, and will annoy the hell out of you. :furious: But the flexible line has a fixed flange on top.

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:05 am 
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I went for a 25 mile drive tonight to check everything out and to make sure it is working well. It ran really well and didn't go through a quart of oil in 2 minutes. :roll:
However while driving up a long steep hill and the Check Engine Light came on. I will borrow a scanner from a friend soon to see what the code is... :POPCORN:

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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 Post subject: Re: I Think My Turbo Went Out The Door Tonight.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:14 am 
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Here is the code I got. I will pull the two CAC hoses and clean the map sensor. I wonder if one of them burst since installing the turbo.

Image

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2005 131k 3.7 Gasser (Lifted-CRD Springs, 4.10 Gears, F+R DTT, Teraflex 2wd Low, Skidrow/Mopar Skids, Rock Lizard Super Skinks, Goodyear Wrangler Authority 31x10.5-15)
2012 Triumph Tiger (TKC 80 Front Tire Heidnau K60 Rear, Crash Bars, Skid Plate, Bark Busters, Pelican Case Top Box)


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