Oh, so they are cursed. RMS Take Two + MAP + IAT

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

The background:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85356&hilit=+not+actually+new+

Got the CRD back on Friday, drove it 10 miles home and parked it. Today, puddle of oil underneath. Not as bad as it was, but still too bad to live with.

I have reasonable confidence in the shop that did the work - the mechanic and I spoke a fair amount and not only am I pretty confident he knows what he's doing, there just isn't a big opportunity to screw up the seal or the crank o-ring (did both). The Jeep was test driven it before being returned it to me, and there was no puddle when I picked it up.

The oil is coming from the same spot, primarily the flange between the engine and transmission bellhousing, but there is also wet oil on the starter that I'm assuming gets blown up there while driving. Wipe it all away, wait 10 minutes, and oil seeps from between the flange again. I can't think of anything that could produce this other the rear seal. Now I'm faced with either a botched job, crank play that's murdering the seal, or crankcase pressure that's blowing oil past it. None of those are good.

I suppose the leak could be coming from somewhere else, but I just don't see where or how.

Simultaneously...

I cleaned it up this evening to take it for a drive, praying the puddle was just accumulated oil that finally found it's way out. After running for maybe three minutes the check engine light came on, with codes for IAT Circuit High, and MAP Circuit Low. Both are plugged in. The airbox cover has been off a fair amount, most recently for a replacement air filter. The MAP sensor was removed a while back for cleaning, it was covered with goop. I cleaned it with CRC MAF cleaner (figuring it was gentle) and put it back. I've read MAP & IAT codes can be related, but the low vs. high is confusing.

I am honestly not sure what comes next. I don't see a good way out of this.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:45 am

IAT and MAP are the same sensor.
You might just need a new MAP sensor. Unless there is a problem with the harness connector.

Sorry to hear that your RMS is still leaking. Not sure how they could have screwed that up. But I haven't done that job yet.
Its also possible that your turbo drain pipe is leaking where it fits into the block.

If you suspect that crankcase pressure is causing the RMS leak, then you need to look at your CCV and hose. If you are using the EHM then you should probably go back to the stock setup.

RMS is on my to-do list. My leak isn't too bad and never leaves oil on the driveway. It must only be leaking while driving.
The bottom of the bellhousing is wet with oil and the starter has a bit of oil on it too.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:25 pm

The reason one is showing high and one is showing low is that the function in opposite directions. The MAP sensor increases voltage as pressure increases while the IAT sensor(built into the MAP) decreases voltage as temps increase. So if you lost the supply voltage, the MAP would be telling the ECU pressures are low and the IAT would be sending a high temp signal back. Both run from the same 5V supply pin so maybe check that connection.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Sure, that makes sense - but isn't the 5v supply common for all 5v engine components (MAF, etc.)? Why would just two sensors be affected? I'll double check the wiring diagram, but last night didn't see a single connection just they had in common.

While reading the forum last night I found a couple people that reported "oil galley plugs" on the back of the head leaking. It's worth a shot here. I couldn't find any specific imagery and I can't see what I'm doing back there, but I think I'm looking for two small hex plugs, not the giant cam plugs... does that sound right? Anyone happen to have a picture of the back of the head to guide me?

mass-hole · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:15 pm

thesameguy wrote:

Sure, that makes sense - but isn't the 5v supply common for all 5v engine components (MAF, etc.)? Why would just two sensors be affected? I'll double check the wiring diagram, but last night didn't see a single connection just they had in common.

While reading the forum last night I found a couple people that reported "oil galley plugs" on the back of the head leaking. It's worth a shot here. I couldn't find any specific imagery and I can't see what I'm doing back there, but I think I'm looking for two small hex plugs, not the giant cam plugs... does that sound right? Anyone happen to have a picture of the back of the head to guide me?

Because maybe the connector is bad at the TMAP sensor or that specific supply wire is bad in the bundle. I think someone around here recently had a bad TMAP connection and ended up replacing the plug at the sensor.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:35 pm

thesameguy wrote:

Anyone happen to have a picture of the back of the head to guide me?

This is a very good picture* of the rear of the engine showing all parts:

Looks like there are four small plugs and one large plug on the back of the head best I can tell looking at the picture!
But I also see a large plug on the block which is probably at the end of the oil galley (upper right side of block)...
Any of them leaking oil would put oil in the area you are finding.... :roll:

*Picture by papaindigo

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Thanks for that. I will have to feel around back there some more. I can identify the cam plugs by hand, and they feel dry. I'll have to get down much lower to check anything else. Maybe I can drop the back of the transmission to gain better access.

As far as the CEL goes, I double-checked the manual and the MAP and IAT both have home-runs for reference/signal/ground back to the ECM on totally different pins (34, 83, 63, 60 and 32, 58, 36 resp.). No intermediary connector. The CKP, MAF, APP sensors, etc. all also have 5v references, so it seems unlikely there is a problem with the 5v supply on the ECM. Unfortunately my scan tool (an Autel MD803) doesn't speak CRD so I can't read these sensors' outputs. I am wondering if maybe the codes refer to "different than expected" rather than "absolutely wrong," in which case perhaps one of them is malfunctioning, and the resultant signal makes the ECM think the other one is wrong.

The bad connector idea does make me wonder - the harness does not plug into the MAP sensor in a positive-feeling way. Removing the rubber seal fixes that, but it raises questions. I will pull the pins and check them out.

It's completely drivable with the oil leak, but I'm not going to drive around leaving massive oil spots everywhere. Unless I find that leak is something other than the RMS the Jeep is gone. I am buried and I don't need another time consuming project. If I'd been able to see the leak before I bought it - which I couldn't due to the skid plate - I'd never have gone down this road. This weekend it crossed over from fun project to epic waste of time and money. Pretty disgusted with myself right now.

Here's to hoping the leak is from somewhere accessible.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:26 pm

MAP sensor has 4 wires.
5v supplies both MAP and IAT
Pin 2 is the output from IAT.
Pin 4 is output from MAP.

I've had bad connectors on my rail pressure sensor and my fuel quantity solenoid.
Discovered the bad connectors by wiggling the connector and watching the engine sputter and stumble while idling. And by watching the sensor readings with my torquepro app.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Yep - I will check the 5v on both sensors this evening. If there is 5v and ground at the sensors, then the issue is either the sensor or the relationship between them. I'm pretty confident the reference voltage is *not* the problem. Almost 100%.

Here's some other stuff:

These photos were taken after a 30 minute drive, sitting about 20 minutes, a full clean, then sitting another 30 minutes. These are streams of oil *long* after shutdown.

There is oil coming down between the engine and the bellhousing "adapter" as well as between the adapter and the transmission. But, there is also oil way up by the starter. All very discouraging.

However, while trying to find the plugs on the back of the head, I referred to this picture I took with the transmission out - I won't put it inline as it's **huge**:

http://sacsaabs.org/sacsaabs.org/misc/0 ... aks2_4.jpg

Note the areas I circled - you can see oil has been flowing through the bolt holes, but there isn't any oil from inside the bellhousing to the outside. Also, these are the SAME spots I'm seeing leaks now. Look over by the starter, and you can see traces of oil from the top to the bottom along the flange.

I think this suggests oil is travelling from above the bellhousing and sort of drilling "through" it. Seems like this supports the idea the leak is above the transmission. But, it also raises the question whether it's coming from the head or maybe even the head gasket. Really not sure how to narrow that down visually.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:51 pm

Have you tried or considered adding UV additive to the oil to pinpoint the leak location using a UV light? Might be worth a try!!! :idea:

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I think this is the plug I was reading about -

From here: viewtopic.php?f=98&p=781854#p781854

It seems possible although being on the passenger side would not explain the leak from the starter I don't think.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

WWDiesel wrote:

Have you tried or considered adding UV additive to the oil to pinpoint the leak location using a UV light? Might be worth a try!!! :idea:

Yeah, gonna do that. Amazon should be delivering the dye this afternoon. Not sure I will be able to see anything - all I can see is where it ends up but it's certainly worth a shot.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

flash7210 wrote:

IAT and MAP are the same sensor.

I feel dumb...

I just realized this, went back to apologize to you for misunderstanding your suggestion, then realized you'd spelled it for me. Derp.

Ordered a new sensor - I'd bet money it's failed internally and the only reason the code didn't show up long ago is the protective layer of gunk that had formed around it. Cleaned the gunk and it was free to malfunction.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:19 pm

Have you done the weeks101 stage 2 kit? You may be able to see up there if you have, or it might be a good time to do it.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I haven't, and I can't. It would never pass inspection.

Unfortunately I just had that side of the engine apart for glow plug replacement, but if push comes to shove I can always do it again - it wasn't bad at all. Just not sure what more I'd be able to see with the EGR stuff still there.

I have the updated fuel head to install, so I could proceed with that - having it gone would allow some better access I think.

I have been staring at pictures all morning, and nothing jumps out as a likely suspect, though I can still find logic with the problem coming from up top somewhere. I'd assume all the freeze plugs on the back of the block are for coolant, that even the Italians wouldn't use a press-in plug for oil... so I am left with the cam plugs (I think), that plug on the side of the block, the valve cover, and the head gasket.

I also am considering removing the intake manifold/valve cover. It doesn't seem too awful (injectors, wiring?). It just starts being mission creep, and the core is that I just don't have the bandwidth for a witch... I mean oil... hunt. I guess the upside of this in combination with the fuel head would be a great time to install an EGR block off plate. That would be some good access.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:35 pm

My project has had a very similar look as yours as far as oil distribution, leakage, drippage, etc. I was thinking it was RMS as well, but when I pulled the starter everything was clean and dry, including the flex plate. After much time, I came to the conclusion that it was coming from the turbo drain tube at the grommet point where it delivers return oil to the block. It seems it was the source long enough that everything below this point and behind this point was oil soaked, even around to the EGR area, (which I believe contributed in it's own way) and back around the bellhousing and transmission pan. (I wish I had a way to take pictures.)

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Wow, the turbo drain was blowing all the way around to the other side of the motor? You replaced the seals and it cured the leak?

I know there is oil being dispensed from my turbo drain, I just couldn't image how it would get to the starter, etc. I know engine bay airflow can be crazy, but it seems like a lot of oil would have to make it's way around. Although, admittedly, the driver's side is nowhere near as nasty as the passenger side, so there's that.

I'm up for replacing a turbo drain - it *cannot* be worse than the one on a Saab... for one, you can actually see it.

It's really too bad nobody makes a flexible drain -

I have one on my XR4Ti and it solves oh so many problems.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:15 pm

Like I said.. I wish I had a way to take pictures.
On the driver's side, the engine from the egr valve back and down had enough oil to make it wet, then it has a coating of dust that looks like someone sprayed powdered graphite on the whole thing, as much as could possibly stick. the oil dripped down across the pan, and migrated all over the whole thing. But by far the biggest contributor was the turbo oil return.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:48 pm

On your other points
Seals replaced
Tube replaced
Turbo replaced
Head replaced
Tires replaced
Intake replaced
CAC hoses replaced
EGR displaced far far away
Same with CAT and MUFF
Cams replaced
Lifters replaced
Puck augmented with Provent
all timing stuff replaced
all serp belt stuff replaced
etc
etc
It's not running yet, but getting close
Transmission, brakes, suspension, and driveline stuff to follow
(Thanks to someone recently posting on replacing the rear CV joint of the Front prop shaft, I shined a light up there,and whaddya know.. The only evidence of a boot is the clamp that was around the small end. ... one more thang to add to the list.

Regarding your EGR comments, if You put in a blockoff plate to prevent the contaminating exhaust from re-entering your engine, there is no visible or electronic way an inspector could know that unless they disassemble and remove it, and they don't do that even in Cali.

Edit: I have an extra blockoff plate somewhere around here I can mail ya if you want it. It's thicker than it needs to be, but you can use it as a template if you want to make a thinner one.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

That's really fascinating. I have some "Pig Mat" - it's a polypropylene (I think) towel that's absorbent and resistant to most everything. I'm going to try wrapping the drain tube in it and take a drive to see how wet it comes back and if it mitigates or changes the leak. Fortunately the shop powerwashed the transmission before reinstalling, so it's pretty clean down there - no dirt or grime. Oh yeah, and the dye... if all the oil is coming from that place, it should be an interesting light display.

I'm not worried about the EGR block off - you're right, they'd never find it. It's the Weeks kit that they would - it basically replaces the intake elbow and everything attached to it with a tube. Even painted black I'm sure they'd spot it. It just doesn't look like a factory piece.

Everything about that screams "aftermarket."

I fully intend on blocking off the EGR and doing a GDE tune... or did. If I can't cure this leak relatively easily and cost effectively, I'll be dumping the Jeep. I have to do all the stuff you just named on two other cars.

The only reason I just bought a MAP sensor is to turn off the CEL so I can legally sell it.

Oh, so they are cursed. RMS Take Two + MAP + IAT

Who is online