Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

UFO · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:56 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

jinstall wrote:

Bio is now MORE than normal diesel by almost 20 cents!

Not here.

Or here either, B20 is consistantly 5-10 cents less. Unfortunately, the pump closest to me is only open M-F.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

jinstall wrote:

Bio is now MORE than normal diesel by almost 20 cents!

Still cheaper here in Oregon for B20 than for dino (but both are painfully pricey ($3.35-3.43) vs. regular unleaded ($2.75).

I use biodiesel because innovation flows out of destablized markets. A market where the only producers of goods/providers of services are large, well established businesses with a product line up that is viewed as "irreplacable" leads to monopolies and stagnation.

Public interest in biodiesel, together with government interest and subsidies, is shaking up the auto and fuel industry (the same way that hybrids are). That shake up is leading towards innovations that will take a much larger bite out of the problem (such as plug-in hybrids and algae-based BD, and eventually, if we are lucky, fuel cells).

For now, folks who are about energy dependence and/or the environment can make a good start by buying the most efficient vehicle that meets their needs. If you need to tow or go off road regularly, a CRD Jeep running some percentage of bio is a good way to (just make sure your bio is from a good source). If you just want a passenger vehicle for a daily driver, look to a hybrid or one of the new diesel VW's or Honda's coming soon. Kind of funny that in all the debate over bio here people have lost track of the #1 positive enviro benefit of diesels -- greater fuel efficiency.

MOSFET · **Joined:** Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:40 pm **Posts:** 295

B5 (only sold in winter, B20 otherwise) and straight diesel are both $3.64/gallon in upstate NY.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:52 pm

CRD for weekends/long trips/bad weather, '87 MB for the daily grind to and from work.

Unless you're looking for the absolute tops in fuel efficiency and don't mind making car payments, don't overlook the older MB diesels from the late 80's and early 90's. An '87 or early 90's 300D, 240D, or 190D can easily hit 30 mpg and above if in good shape and driven sensibly, and can be had for around 1/3 of the price of a used late model TDI, and considerably less than a new hybrid.

5 to 10 grand difference in asking price can pay for quite a few years worth of diesel fuel.

Last couple weeks I've been experimenting with the '87, only putting in a set amount of fuel to see how long it would last. Turns out in it's present shape, I can do an entire week's commute - 200 miles - easily on 7 gallons and not have the low fuel light come on. And that's with a bad case of injector nailing and a slushbox auto that's leaking 1/2 quart of fluid every 2 to 3 weeks. Might be even better once I finish going over everything.

Not bad for a 20 year old car I paid 6 grand for.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

IMO, if your daily commute is mostly highway, an older (late 90's up to about 2002) VW TDI is the way to go. 40+ mpg on the highway (over 50 mpg with some models), bombproof engines (with a few mods), and fun to drive. I like the old MB's to, but a 2000-2003 Jetta TDI Wagon is the automotive equivalent of a swiss army knife.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Keigh - You got me on one thing, I am nearly always a devil's advocate. I do not necessarily always believe everything I say, sometimes its just to get the opposition POV out there and harvest the responses. That said, I also do believe much of what I say, and in many cases very strongly. It dosen't really matter though for the sake of discussion what I am truly behind and what I am not, the point is that all points of view within reason need to be represented, or the hypothetical 'lurker' reading for answers will have to go elsewhere to see their critical questions answered if everyone is simply on one side.

Secondly, the proving the technology argument to me is a dead issue, I don't know anyone who's afraid of BD beyond the possible wear issues and the few who realize the environmental implications. And those questions won't be resolved by seeing you fill up at a pump, but instead by a large amount of credible and quotable research by independent organizations and auto manufacturers. That dosen't mean that we should shut down the BD we are selling now, after all you don't get real world research done without actually having the item in use in measurable quantities, but it also means not expanding what is essentially unsustainable and damaging in the long run just to 'prove' a point thats already been proven as much as it can be in this form.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:46 pm

Threeweight wrote:

IMO, if your daily commute is mostly highway, an older (late 90's up to about 2002) VW TDI is the way to go. 40+ mpg on the highway (over 50 mpg with some models), bombproof engines (with a few mods), and fun to drive. I like the old MB's to, but a 2000-2003 Jetta TDI Wagon is the automotive equivalent of a swiss army knife.

Agreed. It depends on your situation. In my case, 30 + mpg was more than adequate to cut my fuel bill in half (two fillups per month vice four), and since I was paying cash for a second vehicle that was essentially meant to be a "beater" local commuter car, asking price was a consideration. At the time, regional asking price for a used TDI with anything less than 100K miles on it was 75% or greater of the original list price - I even saw some dealers asking MORE than the original list for models with less than 50K miles.

And after all the dealer trips with the CRD, I wanted something "old" enough to fix in the driveway without a degree in computer programming.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:58 pm

Quote:

Secondly, the proving the technology argument to me is a dead issue, I don't know anyone who's afraid of BD beyond the possible wear issues and the few who realize the environmental implications. And those questions won't be resolved by seeing you fill up at a pump, but instead by a large amount of credible and quotable research by independent organizations and auto manufacturers. That dosen't mean that we should shut down the BD we are selling now, after all you don't get real world research done without actually having the item in use in measurable quantities, but it also means not expanding what is essentially unsustainable and damaging in the long run just to 'prove' a point thats already been proven as much as it can be in this form.

Where are the independent research organizations studying the use of dog hair in picture frames? I need to know which glues work best to hold it in place and how to wash it so allergic people don't sneeze they are near my artwork. Oh well, I guess I'll just sit here tapping my fingers until someone calls my to tell me the answers and offer me products.

As stated numerous times before "a large amount of credible and quotable research by independent organizations and auto manufacturers" does not exist without demand. Period.

Second, my daily experience is the opposite of yours which is why it is fun to have the sticker on the back of my CRD. It works well as an ice breaker for conversations with strangers and I enjoy discussing the issue with people - many of them think I have a modified vehicle. Most, including many on this thread don't know where to get it, or even how to look for it, what to expect in price or what it might due to their cars.
Further, peruse the many other threads where this topic comes up. It is often the case that the intelligent, articulate, technically savvy individuals in this forum and others - people I rely on for a great deal of information and entertainment - occasionally have irrational fears regarding this issue. When it is irrational it is often due to *peer pressure, fear of change itself, or some sort of misplaced anger or fixation.

* In the past few years on various forums regarding alternative energy in general, I have found peer pressure plays a huge role in determining people's outward behavior toward the topic. Recently, I saw a signature in another Jeep forum that said "proudly burning the fuel you save driving that Prius". This kind of statement is irrational and due to peer pressure to sound cool and tough. I have seen many other sarcastic, "tough guy" statements regarding this issue in nearly every forum where testosterone sports are involved. Since I motocross and snowmobile, I see a hell of a lot of this. I also hear it when out riding - in fact it is assumed I hate environmentalists and their silly alternative energy crap so I am often witness to these conversations completely unrestricted and unedited. It seems they are constantly at war with "those environmentalists" - which is their form of the Boogie Man. Unfortunately, in doing so they contribute further toward misinformation and furthering irrational public fears.

Finally, your devil's advocacy is a good idea in threads where enthusiastic supporters of BD are present. However, I would hope that in the "real" world you are more enthusiastic, if not about BD then some other form of alt. energy. Our species really does need it's members getting involved and tinkering with and creating demand for these things and that will only happen if they see it in their best interest to do so....which will only happen if people like YOU - people who can articulate and understand technical information and thus have some credibility - get involved.

And remember, with binoculars, I can see your house from up here on Tiger Mountain so I better see some solar panels on that roof soon soon buster!

- Chris

crd liberty · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:33 pm

And remember, with binoculars, I can see your house from up here on Tiger Mountain so I better see some solar panels on that roof soon soon buster!

Ya can't see my house from there, LOL. If ya could ya would see
solar panels on the roof. Only problem is they heat the pool, not
the house.
Steve

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

I can't argue with your personal experience, like mine its anecdotal, obviously. I just haven't seen much resistance in that area myself, especially with so many cars coming E85 certified, the explanation that works for those who don't want to know the details is that its the same thing as E85 for gas vehicles more or less, but without the mileage loss(not quite in those words).

Don't worry about my views on alternative energy, I'm advising the Democratic party on their energy platform every year and making adjustments. I'm not even trashing proposals for biofuel subsidies, for many its a visible reminder and something to 'sell' to voters as evidence we are making progress, when in reality the true progress is in the R&D that is being justified with these platforms. That dosen't mean that it dosen't bother me that we have to do something wasteful and counter productive now to get to where we really need to be.

BTW, I bring up algae a lot, but I'm not wedded to the concept. Like all early stage concepts, it could simply not pan out, whether for economic, logistical or mass production reasons, but the reason I support it so strongly is that its the kind of out of box thinking we really need to get through this challenge, something that can concievably meet our needs, not simply offset growth to some small degree like crop based offers. There are other possibilities in this area like bacterial fuels, but algae is the furthest along that I can see so far.

And I can't really put a solar panel up on the roof, my house is not south facing unfortunatly and there is a huge tree that shades the roof. My yard isn't large enough to put one there. When I get around to building the home I want, you can bet it'll have both wind and solar thanks to net metering...

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

retmil46 wrote:

At the time, regional asking price for a used TDI with anything less than 100K miles on it was 75% or greater of the original list price - I even saw some dealers asking MORE than the original list for models with less than 50K miles.

I've toyed with the idea of putting my wife's 2006.5 Jetta TDI on the market $25-26k (current private party prices in the Portland area for a car with her mileage). We only paid $21 for it, and I could then get her a Prius and take advantage of the Oregon tax credit ($1500 bucks), or a hybrid Civic and get both the Oregon and a federal tax credit (another $1100 or so, for a total of $2600).

Unfortunately, my entrepreneurial zeal ran head long into her “those cars a geek ugly" feeling about the Prius and Civic. Was a little like telling an 8 year old you are selling their X-box and replacing it with an Atari 2600.

crd liberty · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:47 pm

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article. ... tid=435691
New Diesels are coming out

crd liberty · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:48 pm

Volkswagen's 2008 entry is a 2.0-liter 4-cylinder in Jetta TDI sedans; an estimated $25,000 typically equipped. Its smaller 140-horsepower engine does not require urea injection and should return an estimated 45 mpg highway.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:48 pm

Quote:

I've toyed with the idea of putting my wife's 2006.5 Jetta TDI on the market $25-26k (current private party prices in the Portland area for a car with her mileage). We only paid $21 for it, and I could then get her a Prius and take advantage of the Oregon tax credit ($1500 bucks), or a hybrid Civic and get both the Oregon and a federal tax credit (another $1100 or so, for a total of $2600).
Unfortunately, my entrepreneurial zeal ran head long into her “those cars a geek ugly" feeling about the Prius and Civic. Was a little like telling an 8 year old you are selling their X-box and replacing it with an Atari 2600.

Have her actually drive one for a while - if you can. I drove my mom's down from Seattle to Portland & back and then used it for a week while she was on vacation. By the time I was done, I loved it. The one thing I distinctly remember was that in traffic, it was often dead silent - which I eventually came to expect .....and was then shocked jump back into my Subaru Outback (pre-CRDs) and crank up a rumbling engine. With the Prius, I simply walked up to the car with the proximity sensor in my pocket, which then automatically unlocked. I got in - no key on the steering column - pushed a button and off I went. Environmental factors aside, it was a nice car.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:54 pm

Quote:

Don't worry about my views on alternative energy, I'm advising the Democratic party on their energy platform every year and making adjustments.

Well, that explains a lot. :lol:

And now I worry even more.

As for the solar panels on your house: Chop down the offending shade tree so you have better sunlight on the roof. Then split the wood for firewood. If it is a decent sized fir you should get a couple of years of heat out of it. Then plant 4 trees to replace it in better locations in the yard and a few more in the forest somewhere for good measure. Then up go the panels, or wind farm, or solar water heater.....or, as in my case, a new deck to enjoy global warming.

And yes, I can see your house - I look directly down on Renton! You are my subjects. Now do as I say not as I do. :twisted:

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

KeighJeigh wrote:

Quote:

Don't worry about my views on alternative energy, I'm advising the Democratic party on their energy platform every year and making adjustments.

Well, that explains a lot. :lol:

And now I worry even more.

As for the solar panels on your house: Chop down the offending shade tree so you have better sunlight on the roof. Then split the wood for firewood. If it is a decent sized fir you should get a couple of years of heat out of it. Then plant 4 trees to replace it in better locations in the yard and a few more in the forest somewhere for good measure. Then up go the panels, or wind farm, or solar water heater.....or, as in my case, a new deck to enjoy global warming.

And yes, I can see your house - I look directly down on Renton! You are my subjects. Now do as I say not as I do. :twisted:

Considering my location I'd say the tree provides more environmental protection where it is. I could not plant four more that would be even put together nearly its size, this thing is *huge*, and furthermore it provides a natural level of shade that allows me to skip AC on even the hottest days. Since I"m in the middle of a 'typical' subdivision, I doubt I could honestly get enough of an effect out of solar to make it worth the effort, I'd do much better getting my house properly insulated(in the plans, 1958 homes never really bothered with insulated) and changing my water heater over to a tankless system(also in the plans). For a home like this, maximizing efficiency is probably the best way to go, but as I said my next house will be built with these things in mind, in an area where I can get away with them.

And your welcome to attend the monthly Dem meetings, go to the county Legislative Action Committee meetings, and meet your congressmen. I highly reccomend talking to Zach Hudgens, he's on the technology committee in the state legislature and is highly involved in energy projects. Also, if your not already, try to become a delegate. You can have some influence on the party platform via that process(plus in the people you meet).

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

crd liberty wrote:

Volkswagen's 2008 entry is a 2.0-liter 4-cylinder in Jetta TDI sedans; an estimated $25,000 typically equipped. Its smaller 140-horsepower engine does not require urea injection and should return an estimated 45 mpg highway.

Yah, if we were to sell we'd need to sell soon. The TDI market in the northwest is currently highly inflated due to the overall demand for biodiesel vehicles, and TDI's particularly. VW has had problems ramping up production of those engines, however (first a big fire at the main factory, now other things). I've read they may not make it to market until late 2008 and early 2009. I'd love to have one of the new TDI sportwagens when they come to market. The new engine has more punch than the 1.9 in our Jetta (right around 100 hp, 177 foot pounds of torque), though the fuel economy is about the same.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:12 am

Threeweight wrote:

Unfortunately, my entrepreneurial zeal ran head long into her “those cars a geek ugly" feeling about the Prius and Civic. Was a little like telling an 8 year old you are selling their X-box and replacing it with an Atari 2600.

I can actually echo her sentiments about one hybrid, the Honda Insight. Looked OK from the front and the side, but the first time I saw one from the rear, I busted out laughing because it was flat-out butt ugly!

Unless the majority of your driving is city/stop and go/short trips, I think you'd be better off with the TDI. Even then, the TDI would probably still turn in pretty respectable mileage in comparison. And if you plan on keeping it past 100K miles, you won't have to worry about eventually replacing the battery pack.

And that's the problem with the current crop of hybrids - the batteries will require replacement some time down the road - not MAY but WILL! And if you're past the warranty period, the cost will be such that most people will simply dump the car (trade in will probably be nil with a worn out battery pack) and buy something else.

Let's put it this way - would you spend $25K on a brand new conventional car, gas or diesel, if you knew with certainty ahead of time that no matter how well you maintained it, that after 100K miles it would require a complete engine swap just to keep it running, and your only other option would be to trade it in for peanuts because the dealer knew as well that the engine would be shortly giving up the ghost?

dieseldoesit · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:16 pm

I am sure when the demand gets high enough, someone will be selling battery packs for hybrids that will be better (more energy density) than what was originally there.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:58 pm

On the little 2 seater Honda Insight, the battery pack is nothing more than 120 nickel hydride D cell flashlight batteries stacked together for 144V.

Couple of years back, some of the first Insight owners started noticing that their battery packs were dying off. The pack had an 80K mile warranty.

When they inquired with their local Honda dealers about getting a replacement pack, they were told that since they were outside the warranty the price would be $5500 plus shop labor rates.

Some of the more enterprising owners figured out how to open up the pack container themselves, remove the old batteries, and solder in a set of new ones. Even at that, the replacement batteries themselves cost them well over $1000 wholesale.

Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

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