Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:48 pm

InCommando wrote:

Do folks just stop by to poll diesel mechanics? I always read posts like " five (insert whatever here) told me I can get 5 more mpg if I..."

The EV-1's were reported $1million each to build. Nothing worthwhile there, if true.

A lot of fuel cell research going on near me. Neighbor works at one of the premier labs, in partnership with the U. of Dayton. Let's just say that the I/C engine is in no danger for at least a decade...

The MPG's claims for the Prius were grossly overstated for the average driver, and remain so even though yoter has reduced their claims. Seems that funny stuff like actually driving them, not bypassing hills, using the a/c, kinda hurts them.

Yep, gotta love all of that clean solar & hydro energy in most of the country. Just forget that the vast majority of electricty here comes from fossil fuels. I know, if the emissions aren't coming out of your personal tail pipe, but a plant you can't see instead, that plug-in car is magically "green."

And crops plant, tend, harvest, & process themselves.

The feds subsidize hybrids at the manufacturers level, or did last time I checked. I hate that my tax dollars go to aid some fat cat's car purchase when he could have a much cheaper driving experience by having a Corolla and leaving my cash out of it.

I think I will go let my '79 360 with no emissions stuff idle for a couple of hours just to undo a few Prius driver's. :shock:

LOL! Gosh, you are SO funny! This is impressive, intelligent and well thought-out commentary. You should be proud - and I'm sure your buddies will high-five you for "puttin' them tree huggin', tax-lovin', communist do-gooders in thar place-is".
It is also exactly the kind of brat-kid-worried-about-being-cool-and-tough statements I referred to in earlier posts. Perhaps you should take the time to review the thread? Everything you wrote has been addressed.
Macho-talk in forums and Youtube is usually inversely proportional to the actual physical stature of the individual making the statement except in terms of McDonald's-inspired girth.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:16 pm

InCommando wrote:

Do folks just stop by to poll diesel mechanics? I always read posts like " five (insert whatever here) told me I can get 5 more mpg if I..."

The EV-1's were reported $1million each to build. Nothing worthwhile there, if true.

A lot of fuel cell research going on near me. Neighbor works at one of the premier labs, in partnership with the U. of Dayton. Let's just say that the I/C engine is in no danger for at least a decade...

The MPG's claims for the Prius were grossly overstated for the average driver, and remain so even though yoter has reduced their claims. Seems that funny stuff like actually driving them, not bypassing hills, using the a/c, kinda hurts them.

Yep, gotta love all of that clean solar & hydro energy in most of the country. Just forget that the vast majority of electricty here comes from fossil fuels. I know, if the emissions aren't coming out of your personal tail pipe, but a plant you can't see instead, that plug-in car is magically "green."

And crops plant, tend, harvest, & process themselves.

The feds subsidize hybrids at the manufacturers level, or did last time I checked. I hate that my tax dollars go to aid some fat cat's car purchase when he could have a much cheaper driving experience by having a Corolla and leaving my cash out of it.

I think I will go let my '79 360 with no emissions stuff idle for a couple of hours just to undo a few Prius driver's. :shock:

Huh? Does a person have to be smoking pot in order for this post to make sense?

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Keigh - One thing I will point out to you is that there are already solutions for every issue raised on nuclear, from storage to the waste itself to safety. The problems with nuclear in this country are that we are using designs from the 50's and 60's with plants built at the latest in the 70's. The rest of the world moved on and the latest designs being used in France and even China are far more advanced, safe, clean and efficient than what we are accustomed to seeing here. However nuclear has much the same problem that diesel does: America had a negative experience with it decades ago and won't let those images out of thier mind long enough to reconsider.

InCommando · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:40 pm

Actually, this thread is perverted so far past the original post that you cannnot remember how it started. Perhaps a re-read is in order? If you do that, the little light might go on over your head. THERE ya go...

And you do realize, despite your other ramblings, that the CRD is an I/C (OK:internal combustions. Did that help?) engine, so it in no way fits in with the tree huggin' commie image that you apparently assign to yourself? Yeah, the mileage is better than a gasser. And for a statistically insignificant little side note in Jeep history, it serves its purpose.

It is easy to spot those internet types who like to take over a thread, throw their weight around, and attempt to inflate their own sense of self importance. If the pontification doesn't do the trick in pointing them out, look for the name calling they like engage in. Especially in a forum that they know will not allow the appropriate response to their childish commentary.

If my post is really that hard to understand, feel free to PM me for a point by point explanation.

Someone please save me from people who think their mud flaps are so interesting they post them in their sig line.

[/b]

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:53 pm

InCommando wrote:

Actually, this thread is perverted so far past the original post that you cannnot remember how it started. Perhaps a re-read is in order? If you do that, the little light might go on over your head. THERE ya go...

And you do realize, despite your other ramblings, that the CRD is an I/C (OK:internal combustions. Did that help?) engine, so it in no way fits in with the tree huggin' commie image that you apparently assign to yourself? Yeah, the mileage is better than a gasser. And for a statistically insignificant little side note in Jeep history, it serves its purpose.

It is easy to spot those internet types who like to take over a thread, throw their weight around, and attempt to inflate their own sense of self importance. If the pontification doesn't do the trick in pointing them out, look for the name calling they like engage in. Especially in a forum that they know will not allow the appropriate response to their childish commentary.

If my post is really that hard to understand, feel free to PM me for a point by point explanation.

Someone please save me from people who think their mud flaps are so interesting they post them in their sig line.

You are so right. My eyes are open now.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

InCommando - I think the real exception people have is with your proclamation of wasting just to piss people off. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, but that attitude really is not productive. I argue with a lot of the people here, but my dispute is with the details of how to get from point A to point B, not the fact that one way or another we need to make the change. Denying that a change needs to happen, or worse, attempting to exacerbate the problem is to some degree offensive at the very least.

Of course if you were speaking metaphorically, if you didn't really mean you waste just to piss off the Prius crowd, well, then point made although it was obviously taken more seriously than you intended it....

InCommando · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:49 pm

Reflex, I was using a bit of license there. But do not be so sure that your, or anyone else's, position is universally accepted. This is epsecially true of "global warming" and the law of diminishing returns as it applies to auto emissions regulations. Perhaps the "peak" oil year is fast approaching, perhaps one technology or another will prevail. But for the time being, it is the I/C.

I, and many on here, actually use their jeeps for what we believe they were designed for: recreational off-roading. I also have a a modified jeep I use for the same purpose. For me, or anyone who uses any I/C powered vehicle for a purely recreational purpose, to claim to be someone who would be upset over running my jeep would be very hypocritical. I do not espouse the same views as you as we obviously hold different views on some subjects.

IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THIS THREAD: Frankly, even with the somewhat improved EPA estimates of the CRD, the KJ is never going to be "green." If one uses it as a commuter, they have made a poor choice. If one uses it to tow, are you towing something ( and using more resources) for business or a recreational purpose? If not a necessity, than they too are wasting energy and increasing pollution for the same reasons as I. From what I have read, the KJ hardly betters the numbers of my CTD, can tow far less, can haul far less, and does not seem to present a good platform from which to attack others for their views. If I am wrong, I apoligize.

I am interested in biodiesel. I stumbled upon the thread, and tried to pick my way through it to get some info as to the original post. But.... Well, you know where the thread wound up.

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:12 pm

My KJ is green in both senses of the word. InCommando, maybe you can be more clear about what you mean, as I honestly have no idea.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

UFO wrote:

My KJ is green in both senses of the word. InCommando, maybe you can be more clear about what you mean, as I honestly have no idea.

The only thing I can figure out is that since it consumes *some* resources, and since they are in some situations more than you absolutely needed, that it must be a non-green solution.

The argument dosen't make much sense because the options are available based on need. I didn't buy my Jeep based on its total 'greeness', I bought it because I made a list of vehicles that suited my potential uses, then I picked the one that I felt was the most environmentally friendly from that group. Since the Jeep had a diesel, it won over the small SUV's and light pickups that were being considered.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:05 pm

I don't have a clue what he's on about either. :?:

My CRD replaced a Jetta TDI, because I needed a vehicle that could haul more than the Jetta could, both internally and towing. The KJ IS my commuter vehicle, because I am not wealthy enough to be able to have 2 "recreation only" vehicles AND a third vehicle for commuting. I would say that my own carbon footprint is less than InCommando's, for that simple fact. I reduce it further by running as high a blend of biodiesel as I possibly can, up to B100. And I am looking into the possibility of re-starting my biodiesel production because there is quite frankly, not enough bio available where I am currently, and fuel prices are rapidly approaching retarded levels with no end in sight.

I don't drive the CRD every day however, I ride my 50mpg motorcycle whenever practical, and the only other engines I have are located in the RV that I rarely move... So no waste from that either.

I'm investigating both small-scale solar and wind potential for both my home and RV, and except for the motorcycle and this current RV, I will not own any gasoline vehicles again. Diesel only, with a preference for the job the vehicle will be doing. I don't need to buy a 3500 dually ANYTHING for basic commuting, which it sounds like you do. That seems more than a bit hypocritical to me. I picked the KJ knowing full well about it's built-in flaws, but I chose it because I specifically did NOT want or need a truck which would waste more fuel on a daily basis than it would provide usefulness. The KJ provides the BEST economy for a decent-size SUV that I have seen, even considering that Chrysler installed their famous fuel-wasting module: The MOPAR badge. Anything with a MOPAR badge uses more fuel than it needs to... So there must be something about that badge.

But anyway, the other vehicles in my family are 2 Mercury Mariner Hybrids. These hold as much as the KJ, get only marginally better highway mileage, but can't tow ANYTHING to speak of. My little 4-cylinder oilburner recently pulled a combined weight of over 11,000 lbs, and booked 18mpg while doing it. Can your truck attest to that? I didn't think so. Can your truck (or ANY full-size truck) book 30mpg on the highway? Didn't think so.

Don't impugn someone else's vehicular choices as anti-green... when your own are equally (or excessively) anti-green.

We each can make choices to reduce our own individual environmental impact... Only by choice can we begin to fix the overall problems with our environmental wastefulness.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

One thing I'll point out is that by most estimates the energy consumption breakdown of a vehicle is such that 2/3 of its consumption is during the average vehicle's manufacturing and materials stage, with only 1/3 from its time in operation. One argument in favor of diesel is the longevity of the engines(at least when paired with a reasonable vehicle around it) allowing the vehicle to stay in service for years if not decades longer than the same vehicle with only a gas engine. In other words, its not 'disposable' like a typical car can be, and as such the up front energy consumption is not nearly as high over the long run. Even if you personally sell the vehicle and buy a new one, it has a much higher chance of living a long life as a used car in someone else's care, vs the ones that end up in a junk yard after just a decade.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:32 pm

geordi wrote:

I don't have a clue what he's on about either. :?:

The official DSM 4 Diagnosis is "Tractor envy" and is usually manifested through incoherent speech as well as anger and disgust toward ones own vehicle, causing displacement syndrome directed at forums in which the patient would not normally be found. Ignoring the unruly behavior usually results in the patient's realization that the universe does not really revolve around them allowing the disorder to resolve itself with time.

InCommando · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:31 pm

Is that diagnoses on both axis? :roll:

How come those who claim to be so open minded are really those who cannot tolerate a dissenting opinion about anything? They resort to name calling & other forms of cyber terrorism when someone fails to goosestep along with their manifisto.

See, I wondered over here thinking this had something to do with jeeps and/or diesels. 1st mistake. Apparently it is a rehash of some documentary by some jerk who spends more a month to heat his pool than I spend to heat my house in a year.

Dislike my KJ? Hardly. I'd have sold it immediately had that been the case. I recognize its limitations, but I do not dislike it.

I did not purchase a truck for MPG. Are were you referring to the nurse's truck? If it was my truck, I realized what I was buying. When your CRD can get 20 mpg with a GCVWR of around 22K, look me up. When it can do 100 mph with that weight, let me know. Mine has no muffler, just straight pipe, and also has the timing & fuel pressure increased. TONS of black smoke rolls when you get on it. Very similar to a "big rig" from the '70's. What do I use it for? To tow a 10K # trailer so that I can drag race a vehicle that gets about 2 mpg using LEADED 110 octane fuel and also has no exhaust whatsoever past the header collectors. The twin carbs intake 1320 cfm to feed 440 CID ( 7.2L ). Just because the audience likes it, I heat my slicks by burning enough rubber that the smoke nearly obscures the car. I do this 8 or 9 times a race day. That is a fact of life you need to live with as hundreds of thousands participate in motor sports. My beleifs, pleasures, and wishes are just as valid as any of yours.

I, too, own a motorcycle. 96 CID (1584 CC's)& 795#. Like all of my toys, I pay to operate it, so I make the decisions about it. Don't like it? Don't buy one like it.

Oh, for those who seem to think it is important, the actual tally, besides the truck: KJ, SJ, drag car, Harley & I have a Town & Country minivan. 6 vehicles, all of the energy to produce them, and only two drivers.

And Geordi, re-read my posts. I NEVER claimed to be green in any manner. I also never claimed to use a dually anything for a DD. But I cannot believe you have an R.V., which is extremely wasteful and serves no legitimate purpose. The fossil fuels that are wasted to operate and maintain such an atrocity.... You claim you never run it, then why do you have it? Was not the waste that went into producing it pointed out to you? Recreational travel is extremely un-green, my friend. You should look into these matters.

Man, even a KJ's spotty reliability record must be a relief to those that came over from a VW.

If you really want to commit to your cause, you would not be driving at all "recreationally" and thinking it is O.K. because your carbon footprint is smaller than someone else's. If it is wrong, it is wrong, so stop throwing stones unless you are truly "without sin." And no one with a porky KJ, despite their rationalities, is without sin. Now, go jump on the person with an "R.V." which by the very nature & name ought to offend your delicate sensibilities.

You stop, I stop. Easy enough?

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:56 pm

Reflex wrote:

Keigh - One thing I will point out to you is that there are already solutions for every issue raised on nuclear, from storage to the waste itself to safety. The problems with nuclear in this country are that we are using designs from the 50's and 60's with plants built at the latest in the 70's. The rest of the world moved on and the latest designs being used in France and even China are far more advanced, safe, clean and efficient than what we are accustomed to seeing here. However nuclear has much the same problem that diesel does: America had a negative experience with it decades ago and won't let those images out of thier mind long enough to reconsider.

Yep. There are far better solutions for nuclear than we currently employ just as our CRDs are a better diesel solution than the Cutlass Supreme diesel of the early 80s. (Remember them? :lol:

)
I think it is becoming abundantly clear that nothing less than a Manhattan Project for energy is called for. This issue really is that crucial. If not for the environment then at the very least for national security, market stability and predictability etc... etc....

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 pm

InCommando wrote:

I did not purchase my truck for MPG. Are were you referring to the nurse's truck? I realized what I was buying. When yours can get 20 mpg with a CGVWR of around 22K, look me up. When it can do 100 mph with that weight, let me know. It has no muffler, just straight pipe, and also has the timing & fuel pressure increased. TONS of black smoke rolls when you get on it. Very similar to a "big rig" from the '70's. What do I use it for? To tow a 10K # trailer so that I can drag race a vehicle that gets about 2 mpg using LEADED 110 octane fuel and also has no exhaust whatsoever past the header collectors. The twin carbs intake 1320 cfm to feed 440 CID ( 7.2L ). Just because the audience likes it, I heat my slicks by burning enough rubber that the smoke nearly obscures the car. I do this 8 or 9 times a race day. That is a fact of life you need to live with, as hundreds of thousands participate in motor sports. My beleifs, pleasures, and wishes are just as valid as any of yours.

I, too, own a motorcycle. 96 CID (1584 CC's)& 795#. Like all of my toys, I pay to operate it, so I make the decisions about it. Don't like it? Don't buy one like it.

Oh, for those who seem to think it is important, the actually tally, besides the truck, KJ, SJ, drag car, and Harley, I have a Town & Country minivan.

Man, even a KJ's spotty reliability record must be a relief to those that came over from a VW.

If you really want to commit to your cause, you would not be driving at all "recreationally" and thinking it is O.K. because your carbon footprint is smaller than someone else's. If it is wrong, it is wrong, so stop throwing stones unless you are truly "without sin." And no one with a porky KJ, despite their rationalities, is without sin. Now, go jump on the person whith an "R.V." who by the very nature & name ought to offend your delicate sensibilities.

Now, you stop, I stop. Easy enough?

Please stay off my highways. If you are stupid enough to drive 100mph with 11 TONS behind you, I don't want you anywhere near the roads my tax dollars pay for, because your stupidity will eventually end up costing lives and creating huge medical expenses and cleanup costs from the police and fire departments.

So you tow a race car. Big deal. Why did you feel it necessary to fill me in on the exact cubic dimensions of a race car which doesn't NEED any emissions controls or the cubic dimensions of a motorcycle?

Are you really needing to compensate that much? I really don't care one way or the other, it just fills the thread with noise.
The fact you are bragging about the lack of emissions equipment on your truck, only proves my estimation of you as an infantile individual. One who doesn't care for either the planet he is on, or the fact that if you actually DO like diesels... You are unaware that you are damaging their reputation with the masses, and could very well REDUCE the availability of future diesel options with your foolishness.

As for "throwing stones" I said I have an RV that I hardly move. You obviously have MANY vehicles that fall into the description of "Recreational vehicle", while it doesn't sound like any of them are what people generally think of as an RV. A MOTOR HOME if you must insist on banality. I would contend that NONE of those are, they are merely off-road vehicles.

By the way, you really should check your facts before posting something silly like "a KJ's spotty reliability record must be a relief to those that came over from a VW" when you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. EVERY mechanical contrivance has reliability issues. The VW I had, had no more than the KJ does. As a matter of fact, it has done quite well for me, and continues on the road with the new owner, who finds it in perfect condition even after 150k miles. He even stated that it was considerably faster than his other identical Jetta, with less miles. The opinions you read online are usually from the people that have bad experiences. Happy people aren't busy kvetching online, they are busy with their lives.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:58 pm

chadhargis wrote:

For me, diesel is what makes sense. I wanted decent fuel economy, towing capicity, and fuel that's easy to find. I got that with my Liberty. I can't imagine trying to tow my motorcycle trailer to the track with a Prius. Something tells me it woudn't fair too well.

I fully agree. Diesel just makes sense and the technology is getting more and more refined.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:03 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

geordi wrote:

I don't have a clue what he's on about either. :?:

The official DSM 4 Diagnosis is "Tractor envy" and is usually manifested through incoherent speech as well as anger and disgust toward ones own vehicle, causing displacement syndrome directed at forums in which the patient would not normally be found. Ignoring the unruly behavior usually results in the patient's realization that the universe does not really revolve around them allowing the disorder to resolve itself with time.

NOW I understand.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:08 pm

Moving on past the Psych ward,is there anyone in or around Rice lake Wi who makes Biodiesel or knows where to find it?

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:14 pm

InCommando wrote:

Reflex, I was using a bit of license there. But do not be so sure that your, or anyone else's, position is universally accepted. This is epsecially true of "global warming" and the law of diminishing returns as it applies to auto emissions regulations. Perhaps the "peak" oil year is fast approaching, perhaps one technology or another will prevail. But for the time being, it is the I/C.
I, and many on here, actually use their jeeps for what we believe they were designed for: recreational off-roading. I also have a a modified jeep I use for the same purpose. For me, or anyone who uses any I/C powered vehicle for a purely recreational purpose, to claim to be someone who would be upset over running my jeep would be very hypocritical. I do not espouse the same views as you as we obviously hold different views on some subjects.
IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THIS THREAD: Frankly, even with the somewhat improved EPA estimates of the CRD, the KJ is never going to be "green." If one uses it as a commuter, they have made a poor choice. If one uses it to tow, are you towing something ( and using more resources) for business or a recreational purpose? If not a necessity, than they too are wasting energy and increasing pollution for the same reasons as I. From what I have read, the KJ hardly betters the numbers of my CTD, can tow far less, can haul far less, and does not seem to present a good platform from which to attack others for their views. If I am wrong, I apoligize.
I am interested in biodiesel. I stumbled upon the thread, and tried to pick my way through it to get some info as to the original post. But.... Well, you know where the thread wound up.

Commando, if you had led off with the above remarks you would have engaged many people in reasonable debate regarding Biodiesel which is the topic of this thread and alternative energy in general which is what it naturally expanded into. I think you probably have some good input that needs to be considered but starting off with infantile remarks regarding your attempts purposely subvert the efforts of people who are trying to reduce their their impact and then taunt and brag about it paints a picture of a teenage redneck with a misplaced sense anger. No, I am not calling you a name - for all I know you are a PHD candidate - but your remarks painted a different picture.

InCommando · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:18 pm

Geordi, the word you are looking for is displacement, not dimension. And just why are you online? SHuldn't happy people be doing something else? Once again, a rebel without a clue. Maybe there is a TNG marathon you could catch?

Could someone explain sarcasm to Geordi while we are here? I am not claiming at any point to be green, nor am I worried about image, and they are not YOUR highways any more than they are mine.

Does TN even require State Boards? It does not appear that way.

Someone's whose height of witticism is KeighJeigh gets something.... explains the mud flap fascination. ANd I would rather not have any discourse with you, however you spell it. You are brainwashed and will not be happy until everyone else toes your line.

Are we done now?

Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

Who is online