Well, here I go... pulling the motor.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:16 pm

A thought,
With injectors out, measure position to the top of each piston.
If you have it in the perfect timing position, all four pistons tops should be exactly at mid travel point and equal distance to each other.
You could use a small rod to measure the piston position through the injector hole.

(timing is NOT set a TDC on this engine like most gassers, it is set a mid point of piston stroke)
also look at the crank pulley hub index mark, it should be setting at 3:00 as shown and referenced in the drawing and picture below.
Still having the flywheel (flexplate) on would probably be easier and the most accurate.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Man, that is a very good idea! And very easy to execute. Thank you!

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

This approach worked superbly... but I got paranoid, put the engine on a hoist, reinstalled the flex plate, and then checked again just to be sure. Yep, it worked perfectly.

I'm glad I double-checked, because the crank had indeed moved a couple of degrees since it's been on the stand. Getting on the hoist also allowed me to replace the 5 bolts holding in the rear bearing carrier with chromoly ARP bolts... The original bolts didn't torque satisfactorily and I assumed them stretched, which might account for the bearing carrier working its way loose originally. The new ARP bolts torqued down properly (I used 30 ft lbs, which is reasonable for M8) and are held in with blue Loctite. Hopefully the bearing carrier stays put this time! (Why make the leap to ARP? Only because M8 x 20mm flanged bolts are expensive anyway, and ARP was an easy way to get 5

)

I got the water pump swapped out, the rear timing cover reinstalled, threw in the glow plugs, and started to install the belt but paused while I look a little more about timing the CP3. I've read a bunch of, um, dissertations over the years but given it's of no pain to set the timing now, I'll do that. I just needed to look up how... Seems like it's just align the dot on the gear with the "bar" on the cover and it's done, so I should be able to do that tonight.

After getting the belt kit from idparts I went through the inventory and it seems I'm just short a thermostat and a new AC compressor and then this motor goes back in.... although I'm still interested in an electric fan conversion so I suppose that's more $$$. It's getting there though! There's far less stuff in boxes, and more stuff on the motor.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:21 pm

The CP3 Injection pump should be timed and timing marks aligned as per the FSM.
There are sound reasons for the timing marks being there from the factory.
This is the simplest explanation without getting into a lot of math, degrees of rotation, firing events, etc...

The CP3 shaft is keyed to the drive gear and indexed in such a way that timing is set to coordinate with the pressure waves of the CP3 pumping pulses in conjunction with the injection/cylinder combustion events. :!:

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Aye, I get it... After reading "everything" I'm still not convinced of the need to time it - and ChryCo and VMM both seem to say you don't have to - but it literally costs nothing and all the parts are laid bare right now. I'm certainly not going to taunt the turbodiesel gods and skip it! It would be the definition of insanity to put all this time & money into the motor and then gloss over a trivial detail like this.

I have to tell you, the images and diagrams you post on this forum are incredible. I sincerely appreciate all the hard work you put into detailing the intricacies of this motor. I've used them so many times during this process I've lost count.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

After pulling the flywheel back off, I marked the crank in back and up front so I could be sure it didn't move around....

Got the fuel pump lined up, belt installed, and tensioner set

I then turned the motor around probably 15 times - enough times so that the crank/cams/fuel pump all lined back up three times. When that was done, the tensioner had drifted a little bit

so I loosened it, readjusted it, and spun the motor another 15 times. Tensioner stayed put, so I called that good.

The only thing that's giving me pause right now is during the first couple revolutions of the motor I got a mechanical "click" from somewhere... One click per revolution, two clicks total. After that, 28 quiet revolutions. Not sure what it was, I wasn't expecting it and don't know where it came from. Maybe a cam lobe interacting with a sticky rocker or maybe the belt tensioner? I'll probably never know. Unless the engine explodes, and then I'll know exactly what it was.

Next step is getting an AC compressor. I think with that, the motor can go back in. I'd be left needing an electric fan and a thermostat, and neither of those hold up reinstalling the motor.

krb · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:27 am

Yeah, progress!!! :pepper:

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Seriously! I'm a little concerned about that click noise....it was more of a SPROING! noise and I can't escape the idea it was a rocker going weird. Since the injectors are out and the head is unused and spotless, I'm going to see if my boroscope can confirm proper valve movement so I can sleep better.

idparts has the AC compressor at $725, so that's not happening. Rockauto has a Denso at $200, the obvious answer.

I'll get that order in soon. My plan is to take advantage of a socially very distant Thanksgiving and put the motor in. Hopefully I keep remembering where things go.

Oh, and I found one of my extra bolts is definitely for a Saab, so it's possible the other one is as well. I put a new motor in a 9-3 a little while ago, and I'm guessing some of the extra hardware got inadvertently scattered. I should post a photo of the bits I'm unsure about and see if anyone recognizes them.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:16 pm

You are doing an inspirational job thesameguy !
Motivates me to want to get on with my 2007 needing an engine rebuild. Have you read the thread by CaptainDean ? It is a bit of a horror story, everything that could go wrong with a rebuild has for him. Worth a read though.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

I have, and it's horrifying! I have been replacing basically everything as I go, being pretty meticulous to avoid that fate. Because I don't need this car, and it's already borderline more hassle than it's worth. If things go too far wrong I will push it into the river!!!

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Well, it looks like we may be headed down the same road... misery loves company?

My boroscope is too big to fit through the injector hole, so that approach was out. I broke out the leakdown tester - I know it's not truly useful to do a leakdown test on a dry, cold motor, but it's all I have. #3 and #4 show about 50% leakage, and it's at least primarily through the bottom end so I feel decent about that. #1 and #2, however, are 90%+ leakage, and I can't really find a crank position to change that.... a degree one way and it's blasting out the exhaust, a degree the other way and it's out the intake.

On any other car I'd blame cam timing, but since the cams are locked by the pins, I don't see how that could be a thing here. If all four were showing massive leakage then I'd blame crank position, but since two seem good and two seem bad, that's not a good explanation either.

Leakage was very close to 0% before all this work, so I'm confident there isn't an issue with the deck. The head is fully rebuilt - all new everything - by a trusted shop, and I'm not inclined to believe there's a valve problem. I'm confident in my head/gasket install, and really, what scenario is a leakdown test shows a problem on a brand new head gasket? 0%.

This leaves me with the inescapable feeling a rocker is not behaving the way it should, and that's the SPROING sound I heard when installing the belt.

I'm sure as doo doo not putting this motor back in with these doubts, so I think the only thing to do here is take the camifold off and inspect the rockers, make sure they are where they're supposed to be. It's not *that* much work, but it's work I don't wanna do and it's going to cost me a $40 gasket... money I'd much rather put towards that AC compressor, but I don't know what else to do.

rankom · **Posted:** Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:26 pm

I say to be on the safe side since you heard that noise when you were barring the engine over, better pull the valve cover off and inspect the rockers. one of them probably slipped off or something.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Yep, agreed. I am Tell ng myself on the upside it means I can do a better job cleaning up the intake path... It's still pretty gnarly in there. $40 is *definitely* not worth having to take this apart again once it's in the car.

That said, this is a truly poopy design.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:09 am

You can reuse the cam gasket. It is only a light oil seal, not a critical pressure seal. Also with the pins in place, a leak down test is not illuminating b/c the valves are open.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

The pins are not / can not be in place for a leak down test... The engine is rotated to TDC for each cylinder so that cylinder is sealed. The problem I have is that 3/4 are pretty well sealed and 1/2 appear not sealed at all... The issue *could* be the motor has a lot of miles and it's a little loose cold, but the problem could also be the valves are not closing for some reason.... And I don't have a way to tell the difference. So I gotta go physically Iook.

I would definitely not reuse that gasket. I realize it might be reusable, but if it doesn't seal that means doing all this work a *3rd* time, in the car, and I'm not up for that. Not to save $40.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:19 pm

The "seal" from the camshaft gasket is just a zero-pressure leak seal. In the valve cover is the 1 psi to 1 inch of vacuum (if the CCV is connected properly to the turbo, with or without a provent) and there is no actual pressure to retain. The gasket is only there to stop the oil that is laying across to top of the head under the cams.

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

Yes, I understand. No valve cover gasket holds pressure. No pressure doesn't mean no leaks.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:23 pm

Your noise might be the lifters which aren't full of oil yet. I notice some clacking during the first startup for a couple of seconds, then it sounds normal...

thesameguy · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:24 pm **Posts:** 652

It was a one time - or I guess two time - noise on the first two revolutions of the motor... The subsequent 100 revolutions have sounded normal. But the sound put me on edge, and the high leak down numbers make me think there is a problem between cam/rocker/lifter... Although tbh I can't explain how a mislocated rocker would keep a valve open, but it seems *something* in the valve train isn't right, and I gotta at least look in there to see what went wrong. The sound could have come from anywhere, but I'm short on ideas.

Mopargarage · **Posted:** Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:16 pm

Mine is having a similar problem. I also have coolant coming out or has mixed with it. Rear of the block. I'm goimg to have the head and block checked. It's pulled and about read to go.

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Well, here I go... pulling the motor.

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