CRD Injector pump update. Gonna have to sell the CRD :(

Snowy · **Joined:** Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:00 am **Posts:** 42

If the tools (pins, actually) to hold the timing belt in place are what you guys need, they are not that expensive. I don't know about any of the others that you may need for some of the other things you need to do. Google them for the website.

SPX Corporation • Miller Special Tools
28635 Mound Rd. • Warren, MI 48092-5509
Phone: 1-800-801-5420

These guys have the tools in stock (three sets of "pins' that hold the timing gears in place) and on their way to me, in Los Angeles, even as we speak. Here are the part numbers: VM.1089, VM.1053 and VM.1052. The total ran just above $100 or so for everything. There is one other tool, but the dealer says we won't need it. It does have a price tag of over $200, so I'm glad it is not necessary.

For what it's worth.

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:27 am

Don't give up... wait for the warmer weather to arrive so you can work on it again, cold weather is brutal on the body and mind especially in Anchorage.

Get the tool and give it to your mechanic to use so he can properly do the work.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:41 am

Allright, let me chime in on this...

First off, call Green Diesel Engineering and talk to Keith. He rents all the tools for $20. See if he has a set available that is not rented out currently adn explain your situation that you are down and in need of the tools to fix ur rig. He may be able to get them out to you ASAP. Also, if you have any questions, he is a wealth of knowledge on the CRD.

Second, (and this is my personal opinion based on my experience doing my timing belt myself, in my garage with his tools) It IS possible to use the cam locking pins to hold the camshafts in place (since I did this accidentally) though it puts alot of stress on the locking pins and the holes they go into in camshafts themselves. I loosened the bolts on the camshaft sprockets using only the pins to hold them in place before I realized that was what the other tool is used for...to NOT put all that stress on the little locking pins (though obviously they are stong enough and it only lightly marred their surface). Again I am not recommending this for the obvious reason that something may break and there are other options to avoid needing the cam holding tool...see below.

Thirdly, and most important of all, it IS NOT necessary to loosen the camshaft sprockets at all if the injection pump is put/left in the original position. This means the third expensive tool is not really necessary if you do not loosen the cam gears. Only the locking pins (or something similar to do the job) would be required...see explanation below:

- The Injection pump is timed, you probably know this. What you may not know is it has 3, yes 3 possible positions that are ok for it to be in when everything else is lined up (because it had 3 pump cycles every rotation). It, however, has only 1 timing mark on the injection pump sprocket to line up with the 1 mark on the housing. When I took my belt cover off and started getting into it, I realized the injection pump did not match the timing mark for it. This is because it has 3 cycles per revolution. Because it has teeth on the sprocket it may not line up with the position of the cam gears when turned to its timing mark, the manual says to loosen the camshaft gears and then time the pump (because of this). This (loosening camshaft gears) can be avoided if you rotate the engine until it is in the correct position for timing it AND the injection pump is on the correct cycle for its mark to line up also(this may take several revolutions to achieve both at the same time - or you might get luck and have it all lined up on the first try). OR, the other option is to use a sharpie or white out to mark the pump pulley exactly where it matches the mark on its housing and then ensure the pulley is in this exact position when putting the belt back on (not really recommended because it is easy to mark at a slight angle and can be difficult to tell if it is lined up right, etc for optimal timing). By doing one of these things you can avoid having to loosen the cam gears and avoid retorquing them when done.

Also, it would be smart to replace the timing belt while in there and if you can afford it the water pump, timing tensioner pulley, and 2 timing idler pulleys so your jeep is good to go for another 100k miles if you have not already replaced those.

Hopefully this helps so you don't have to give up on this project.

May God be with you,

- Mark

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:43 am

Snowy wrote:

If the tools (pins, actually) to hold the timing belt in place are what you guys need, they are not that expensive. I don't know about any of the others that you may need for some of the other things you need to do. Google them for the website.

SPX Corporation • Miller Special Tools
28635 Mound Rd. • Warren, MI 48092-5509
Phone: 1-800-801-5420

These guys have the tools in stock (three sets of "pins' that hold the timing gears in place) and on their way to me, in Los Angeles, even as we speak. Here are the part numbers: VM.1089, VM.1053 and VM.1052. The total ran just above $100 or so for everything. There is one other tool, but the dealer says we won't need it. It does have a price tag of over $200, so I'm glad it is not necessary.

For what it's worth.

The pins are what hold the camshafts in place(roughly $100 for those new), the other $300-400 tool is what holds the gears so you can loosen them and retorque to spec.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:51 am

I'm lost here, what is a 'metering' pump?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:13 am

I could be wrong but I think it's the gear pump on the back side of the CP3 that's used to pump the fuel from the tank supposably doing away with the need for a lift pump

tonycrd · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:20 am

If it is that, I wouldn't mess with it. Take the whole thing of the engine and take it to a BOSCH service or get a complete replacement.

And it's not that hard to take the T belt of.

Most people get all anal when it comes to T belts but there is no need for that.

Mark (with some paint or chalk) the cam gears. No need to use lockpins or whatever.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:24 am

You've gotten some good advice here :mrgreen:

A wounded soldier with over 100k miles in the deep north can't be worth much $$
Rent the tools and wait until it's warm or have a garage.
Then enjoy your CRD again while you pondering your future choices :BANANA:

Joe

coleyf · **Joined:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:14 pm **Posts:** 28

All good advice, but it is my only vehicle. I have been borrowing a friends car for 3 months now!

CF

bugnout · **Posted:** Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:00 pm

Do you have a lift pump? If not, could be the cheapest solution.

timsvulcan · **Joined:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:29 pm **Posts:** 14

For locking pins I just used the butt end of two drill bits that fit snug in the camshaft holes. wrap a little tape around the drill bit end and they won't jiggle out while you work. Simple solution to a complex problem.

coleyf · **Joined:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:14 pm **Posts:** 28

bugnout wrote:

Do you have a lift pump? If not, could be the cheapest solution.

Yep, did the lift pump and upgraded the filter housing assy already.

CF

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:51 pm

The injection pump is not "timed" in a common rail system - it is merely a high pressure hydraulic pump, necessary to build the required pressure in the rail and injector pipes - the injectors are timed by the ECM based on the crank sensor and cam sensor inputs - there is a metering valve in the CP3 that controls the flow from the internal lift pump to provide lubrication for the internals, bypassing of air and excess flow, and fuel to the high pressure pumping pistons - for those interested, a complete description of the Bosch CP3 and KJ C(ommon)R(ail)D(iesel) injection system can be found in the CRD TECH section

Perhaps you could explain exactly what or who has convinced you to replace the metering valve?

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:34 pm

Actually, the pump on a common rail is specifically timed to the position of the engine. Due to the pressure wave that is generated as the fuel is compressed and the injectors open, it's absolutely necessary to avoid a bad resonance of the frequency of the wave. Also, it has been found that optimizing the timing of the pump can actually gain a percentage of power.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:40 pm

Seems plausible on I6 or V6, where three cyls fire per 360deg crank revolution, once each 120deg - CP3 has three pumping pulses per 360deg revolution, one each 120deg - CP3 rotates once per each crank revolution - 4cyl fires twice per 360deg revolution, first cyl at 0deg, second cyl at 180deg, or once each 180deg - CP3 would give one pulse at 0g, engine fires at 0deg - CP3 gives second pulse 120deg later - engine fires 60deg later at 180deg - CP3 gives third pulse 60deg later at 240deg - engine fires third cyl 60deg later at 0deg - etc - similar dis-timing with V8, with 4 firing events per 360deg - IIRC, having not looked into this for nearly a year (and my write-up has myseriously been deleted, prolly by a gasser modulator!), the CP3 input\drive shaft is tapered, as is the drive gear, for simple interference fit when nut is torqued to proper value, not requiring a key\keyway

What say you?

And, don't fergit: I know just enuff to be dangerous, eh..............

Glad to hear from you, MMo

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:59 pm

gmctd - I'd bet this is the thread
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=249350#p249350

(I don't think anyone would delete your posts - maybe rearrange, shuffle - not delete)

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:32 pm

Excellent find, my friend - last nite I used the SEARCH function until I began to develop carpal tunnel syndrome, and couldn't even find myself - only in specific words I'd used in response to some thread - but wassupwidat?? Alternate fuels???? I don't even put Valero Diesel in my tanks, much less alternate fuels.......well, maybe a little Wally world syn 2-stroke oil to make up for the lost sulphur\lube..............

tonycrd · **Posted:** Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:14 am

Gmctd, there is a timing notch on the HP pump sprocket.

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:08 am

Right, I've seen that - to be honest, I have not disassembled the KJ drive sprocket from the CP3, so it is possible that Bosch keyed the sprocket and drive shaft due to the 4cyl stresses resulting from the 2-per-rev firing pulses - you can see one result of those extreme stresses by observing the blowby pulses with the oil filler cap removed

But, nah!!!!!! They would have consulted with me, first, B4 they did that..........right?

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:13 pm

gmctd wrote:

Seems plausible on I6 or V6, where three cyls fire per 360deg crank revolution, once each 120deg - CP3 has three pumping pulses per 360deg revolution, one each 120deg - CP3 rotates once per each crank revolution - 4cyl fires twice per 360deg revolution, first cyl at 0deg, second cyl at 180deg, or once each 180deg - CP3 would give one pulse at 0g, engine fires at 0deg - CP3 gives second pulse at 120deg - engine fires 60deg later at 180deg - CP3 gives third pulse at 240deg - engine fires third cyl 60deg later at 0deg - etc - similar dis-timing with V8, with 4 firing events per 360deg - IIRC, having not looked into this for nearly a year (and my write-up has myseriously been deleted, prolly by a gasser modulator!), the CP3 input\drive shaft is tapered, as is the drive gear, for simple interference fit when nut is torqued to proper value, not requiring a key\keyway

What say you?

And, don't fergit: I know just enuff to be dangerous, eh..............

Glad to hear from you, MMo

May be off base here, but I think the pump sprocket is sized exactly so that the difference between the crank rotation and the pump sprocket allows it to always be at the top of a cycle. 3 pump rotations times 4 cyl = 12, so if the gear circumference was as such to do 1 pump rotation (3 pump cycles) per injection cycle (12 pumps per engine/crank rotation for example) it would be timed at the top of the cycle at the same time, EVERY single time for each cylinder. It is doubtful they would put a timing mark on the pump sprocket and say it needed to be lined up if it didn't matter so I think MrMopar is right.

Remember, injection is only done once per 2 revolutions of crank per cylinder due to exhaust part of combustion cycle.

- Mark

CRD Injector pump update. Gonna have to sell the CRD :(

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