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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:50 am 
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I guess we would need to decide what we really want out of the whole legal thing.

Personally I dont want any money, the only way I would go for this would be if the desired outcome would be to put our engines back to advertised specs, and fix the real problem, which lies somewhere in the transmission/torque converter/TCM. If that wasnt the whole point of a class action, then what would it be? I could care less if it makes DC looks bad, I dont want them to buyback my CRD, or give me a discount towards another vehicle. I just want my CRD to last like it should with the power it is supposed to have.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:55 am 
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Jeger wrote:
I guess we would need to decide what we really want out of the whole legal thing.

Personally I dont want any money, the only way I would go for this would be if the desired outcome would be to put our engines back to advertised specs, and fix the real problem, which lies somewhere in the transmission/torque converter/TCM. If that wasnt the whole point of a class action, then what would it be? I could care less if it makes DC looks bad, I dont want them to buyback my CRD, or give me a discount towards another vehicle. I just want my CRD to last like it should with the power it is supposed to have.


I would like to see a 10yr/150k B2B warranty provided to everyone that owns a CRD, and everyone who has paid for a warranty gets a refund, and everyone who negotiated a warranty into their purchase price, gets a fair calculated value refund for that....

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:58 am 
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alljeep wrote:
Jeger wrote:
I guess we would need to decide what we really want out of the whole legal thing.

Personally I dont want any money, the only way I would go for this would be if the desired outcome would be to put our engines back to advertised specs, and fix the real problem, which lies somewhere in the transmission/torque converter/TCM. If that wasnt the whole point of a class action, then what would it be? I could care less if it makes DC looks bad, I dont want them to buyback my CRD, or give me a discount towards another vehicle. I just want my CRD to last like it should with the power it is supposed to have.


I would like to see a 10yr/150k B2B warranty provided to everyone that owns a CRD, and everyone who has paid for a warranty gets a refund, and everyone who negotiated a warranty into their purchase price, gets a fair calculated value refund for that....


I could go for a 10Yr/150K (whichever comes last) powertrain only warranty, along with the refund of what I paid for my extended warranty. Heck if the 5-7% power reduction was only at shift points I would even accept that.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:33 pm 
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alljeep wrote:
Jeger wrote:
I guess we would need to decide what we really want out of the whole legal thing.

Personally I dont want any money, the only way I would go for this would be if the desired outcome would be to put our engines back to advertised specs, and fix the real problem, which lies somewhere in the transmission/torque converter/TCM. If that wasnt the whole point of a class action, then what would it be? I could care less if it makes DC looks bad, I dont want them to buyback my CRD, or give me a discount towards another vehicle. I just want my CRD to last like it should with the power it is supposed to have.


I would like to see a 10yr/150k B2B warranty provided to everyone that owns a CRD, and everyone who has paid for a warranty gets a refund, and everyone who negotiated a warranty into their purchase price, gets a fair calculated value refund for that....


Ditto for me :!:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:40 pm 
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If there's going to be a lawsuit, getting the problem fixed has to be the point of it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:45 pm 
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BioJeep wrote:
If there's going to be a lawsuit, getting the problem fixed has to be the point of it.


Indeed. Either FIX the problem PROPERLY, or the 10yr/150,000 mile warranty option would be good. We already have the 7/70 on our '05, but it would be nice to get the additional coverage. A proper fix, however, would negate the need to screw around with possible multiple visits over the life of the vehicle to replace the disposable torque converter/tranny.

We've had our issues with the CRD - 2 EGR replacements, lower ball joints (pre-recall), upper track bar joint (rear), loose motor mount, smoking rear brakes, and some funny stalling issues early on (Feb 05 build date). But, the 'revised' EGR has been good since 12k miles, and everything else has been resolved (for now), but with quite a bit of hassle and multiple days in the shop. Pretty sad for 30,000 miles.

Nevertheless, the wife loves the CRD (and so do I - way fun to drive) and doesn't want to part with it. Just knowing we would be covered for a long term with 10/150K or something would be a nice benefit.

Chris

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:23 pm 
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Count me in.

My dealer has been very accomodating (Cornett Chrysler in Irvine, KY) but I'm tired of ball joint recalls (traded in a paid-off 2002 Jeep Liberty Sport 4x4 that had a couple of ball joint recalls, in addition to the CRD). As previously stated by others, I paid for and demand my CRD engine performance, reliability, and torque.

If DC wants to keep me as a customer, they can have mine back at full MSRP and sell me another Jeep (Liberty or Grand Cherokee) at Invoice less holdback less rebates and my 0.00% for 48 months I originally qualified for. It will be awfully hard to give up that 450+ mile crusing range and go back to a gasser Liberty.

I'm still trying to figure out why the "almighty HEMI" in the Grands and RAM 1500's aren't wiping out trans they way the CRD's are.

My dealership Service Manager called earlier this week stating that my parts would be in Thursday. I'm gonna sit on the back burner until I become more well informed.

Greg

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Last edited by gsbrockman on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Lurking Friend
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:57 pm 
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RTStabler51 wrote:
T^2 wrote:

Do you have any evidence to support your theory? Just because this occurred with the Lightning provides no evidence that this is the approach being used by DCX. I think it's fair to say that at the moment nobody has a clue as to how DCX plans to accomplish this so called "small reduction".

If your theory proves to be true, then I think folks might be persuaded to cool their jets.

I do have one question. If all DCX is doing is reducing the torque during shifting (like with the Lightning), then one would still expect to be able to make maximum rated torque (when not shifting) - don't you think? If this is true then why would DCX say that there will be a "small reduction in engine torque" (which suggests a change in the specifications)?
Well, a friend of mine called Customer Service today and was told he would be called back. A few hours later he was called back and told that it does affect the torque/hp ACROSS THE BAND, so it will NOT be a torque reduction at shift points, but instead affecting everything. He lurks here and hasn't posted as of yet, so hopefully he will post soon and clarify his discussion with the DCX rep.



I am the lurking friend. I did call DCX and they did tell me that the torque reduction was an overall reduction in torque for the vehicle. RTStabler51 and I are going to have our vehicles run on a local dyno before I take mine in. I will run it again afterword. As a side note, maybe we should see if others want to dyno their Libbys too. Who knows, maybe we can get a discount. I have allready contacted a lawyer and left them my question. I will keep you posted.

Super D.


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 Post subject: Re: Lurking Friend
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:15 pm 
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SuperDave_001 wrote:
RTStabler51 wrote:
T^2 wrote:

I am the lurking friend. I did call DCX and they did tell me that the torque reduction was an overall reduction in torque for the vehicle. RTStabler51 and I are going to have our vehicles run on a local dyno before I take mine in. I will run it again afterword. As a side note, maybe we should see if others want to dyno their Libbys too. Who knows, maybe we can get a discount. I have allready contacted a lawyer and left them my question. I will keep you posted.

Super D.


Super D. thanks for your help. I'm sure you'll keep us updated on the torque reduction.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:53 pm 
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Personally, I think the first thing to do of course is to ask what you want out of this. I for one am not interested in making money on this. I simply want the vehicle to be fixed right. I would only be interested in monetary compensation if in the end DCX could not (for some genuine engineering reason) or would not (the courts did not order this remedy - but instead only ordered monetary compensation) satisfactorily fix the problem.

Given my desired outcome of this mess - I think that perhaps the most prudent first step would be to give notice to DCX that most are not satisfied with the Customer Satisfaction Notice and its proposed fix. Once tended, DCX should be given the chance to come up with an acceptable remedy. If they refuse, then I think one might consider taking further steps.

One thing to note is that it might be difficult to obtain "class" certification and even if you could it might be undesirable to do so. I'm not a lawyer. Obviously, one might want to seek legal advice on the question of what would be the best course of action.

I found Flying J's link to the following California court case to an interesting and germane read.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/revnppub/B152928.DOC

Highlights of the case:

1) The case involved '98 and '99 Dakota R/T pickups.
2) Chrysler sold or leased fewer than 7,000 of these trucks.
3) Chrysler incorrectly marketed these trucks as having a 6,400 lb towing capacity, when in fact they could only tow 2,000 lbs.
4) Chrysler's initial attempt to make this problem go away was to tell customers who wanted to tow more than 2000 lbs that they could do so if they had a $300 hitch installed.
5) Chrysler later realized the can of worms opened up by #4, notified the owners not to attempt towing of more than 2,000 lbs, and offered to refund the $300 to those customers who had already had the hitch installed.
6) Apparently somewhere around this time frame, DCX offered cash and merchandise in an attempt to make the problem go away. Many customers who never intended to tow more than 2,000 lbs found this offer to be satisfactory and accepted.
7) With the problem refusing to go away, DCX began authorizing "dealers to repurchase or replace Dakota R/Ts on a case-by-case basis, but only for customers who demanded such a remedy."
8) Plaintiffs filed suit seeking the return of their purchase or lease payments, compensatory damages, and attorney fees.
9) Chrysler then made an offer "to all previous Dakota R/T buyers of repurchase or replacement."
10) Chrysler's offer rendered Plaintiff’s case moot and the case was dismissed.
11) After the case was dismissed DCX continued "to litigate plaintiffs' entitlement to attorney fees. Chrysler insisted throughout that plaintiffs were not entitled to attorney fees, contending plaintiffs had no effect on Chrysler’s recognition of the problem and decision to offer all buyers repurchase or replacement."
12) After a year or discovery, motions, and evidentiary hearings the court rejected Chryslers claim "that it had at least decided to offer all buyers repurchase or buybacks before plaintiffs filed their case" and instead found that "plaintiffs’ case was a catalyst for Chrysler’s eventual offer."
13) Chrysler was ordered to pay the fees, which amounted to $762,830.
14) "Nationwide, 2,549 Dakota R/T buyers opted for repurchase or replacement. Another 3,101 buyers opted for service contracts and parts coupons. The total value of these offers exceeded $15 million."


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:59 pm 
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action wrote:
But dont forget, class action suites are a fantasitc way for DC to say FUG the further development of new Diesel Technology and drivelines to match...for other vechicles in the future.


They're headed that way quite nicely without a class action lawsuit. All that's needed is more disregard of their customers who already bought their diesel products and need real answers to the problems DCX created with deficient designs. The market will kill them due to their own bad design, poor product planning and shoddy workmanship. By disregard, I include more band-aid solutions, half-ass PCM/TCM flashes, and gimmicks like cutting engine power to keep the tranny together.


If DC customers end up suing them to get the CRD issue resolved, whose fault is that? For 2 years, owners have been trying to resolve most of the sloppy design work by DC as best as they can - but some of it can't be solved with homemade solutions. DC has had more than enough time to make this problem go away. A good attorney would probably love the TSB history - it's almost as good as a written confession of working around the real problem. They could bring in a top notch performance tranny expert to evaluate the CRD and its TC, and then explain what the real issue is. Let a jury see what both sides have to say and then see how fast DC can suddenly come up with a TC that works without shudder or torque reduction.

Over on Edmunds, there used to be an automotive expert working for a law firm that specialized in automotive litigation - he posted some of his expert testimony in court of the devaluing that was occurring because Honda had defective transmissions in certain vehicles - his expert witness was that as a auction buyer for used car dealerships, hondas with affected transmissions were reduced by at least $1000 in trade in value and were a harder sell due to their many problems. Honda stalled for quite some time, tried offering 100K warranty's, and eventually ended up with a recall that replaced transmissions. So enough legal pressure is sometimes required when corporations won't "do the right thing."

Perhaps someone should buy a domain name thats close to daimlerchrysler.com and let the CRD story be told there to prospective diesel customers, and how DC has handled it to date. At least potential new DC diesel customers could go into their new purchase with some idea of what to expect if there are problems.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:38 pm 
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T^2 wrote:
Given my desired outcome of this mess - I think that perhaps the most prudent first step would be to give notice to DCX that most are not satisfied with the Customer Satisfaction Notice and its proposed fix. Once tended, DCX should be given the chance to come up with an acceptable remedy. If they refuse, then I think one might consider taking further steps.


On second thought it might be better to go ahead and consult a lawyer from the get go. Whatever course is chosen, I would make sure that everything that happened was well documented.


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 Post subject: before and after
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:44 pm 
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For this to play some before and after dyno runs would be needed and they need to be forth coming about how they detuned the CRD. And fuel economy before and after would be helpful.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Ranger1 wrote:
They could bring in a top notch performance tranny expert to evaluate the CRD and its TC, and then explain what the real issue is. Let a jury see what both sides have to say and then see how fast DC can suddenly come up with a TC that works without shudder or torque reduction.


Any chance that our "class action group" could call upon people from Suncoast, ATS, DTT, or Goerend Brothers for testimonials and expert information ?

Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:59 pm 
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It would be up to the attorney(s) who would take such a case - if experienced in automotive litigation, they can pay for which ever expert witness testimony they require to prove their case.

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 Post subject: Class Action Lawsuit
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:14 pm 
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Yes "class action" is probably a bad idea-- the last day or so I have been steering towards the attorney general idea and perhaps organizing a network to supply "ammo" to those who wish to have a buyback or to fight DC with their own lawsuits. I agree that class action lawsuits are generally worthless and a last ditch effort.

Other options still exist. For example, getting the state attorney generals involved for product misrepresentation will put DC's butt in a sling and make them more likely to see things our way. So will pointing out the computer kludges and non-complaince with government/emissions regulations. These are things that will get DC attention that it does not want. Lets keep listing all alternate angles that we can pursue this from, in the event it comes to us needing them. The whole point of this is to get the problem fixed right-- or to get money from DC to get it fixed right.

I have already talked to one attorney about this and he is working to get me in touch with an attorney that handles buy back cases here in AZ.

The main thing is lets keep gathering evidence of what is, and what has been, going on. The more evidence we have-- the more options each of us have. I will look into purchasing a domain name to allow us to co-ordinate efforts at this. I may register some tonight. Should the name be a spoof on dc corporate or something uniquely identifying the CRD?

Please keep posting ideas. As for me, nothing is for sure yet.... but those that fail to plan, plan to fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Action Lawsuit
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:59 am 
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Pablo wrote:
Yes "class action" is probably a bad idea-- the last day or so I have been steering towards the attorney general idea and perhaps organizing a network to supply "ammo" to those who wish to have a buyback or to fight DC with their own lawsuits. I agree that class action lawsuits are generally worthless and a last ditch effort.

Other options still exist. For example, getting the state attorney generals involved for product misrepresentation will put DC's butt in a sling and make them more likely to see things our way. So will pointing out the computer kludges and non-complaince with government/emissions regulations. These are things that will get DC attention that it does not want. Lets keep listing all alternate angles that we can pursue this from, in the event it comes to us needing them. The whole point of this is to get the problem fixed right-- or to get money from DC to get it fixed right.

I have already talked to one attorney about this and he is working to get me in touch with an attorney that handles buy back cases here in AZ.

The main thing is lets keep gathering evidence of what is, and what has been, going on. The more evidence we have-- the more options each of us have. I will look into purchasing a domain name to allow us to co-ordinate efforts at this. I may register some tonight. Should the name be a spoof on dc corporate or something uniquely identifying the CRD?

Please keep posting ideas. As for me, nothing is for sure yet.... but those that fail to plan, plan to fail.


Very reasoanable approach. Unfortunatly DC didn't even bother to respond to the NC Att. General over the engine warranty.

DC has already lost a ton on money with the CRD in the US, no question, my service history is two pages longs long now before the F37 work and more warranty work being done with the power windows (not crd specific but still this will be the third ime). They want this problem to get away from them and into our pockets, that is why everything is only a band aid fix to get us all past warranty. (cust satisfaction=one time fix, recall notice=their problem for life of vehicle)

I don't want a buy back, I want to know this CRD isn't going to cost me a new tranny every 50k or so at $4,000 out of pocket. If something doesn't change we are all looking at annual maintenance/repair cost on our CRD's in the 3-4 thousand dollar a year range. That sucks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:20 am 
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I could see a class action suit if this were a genuine safety issure where people could be hurt or something.

That Dakota Trailer towing capacity is a great example. DC put peoples lives in danger by saying the vechicle could tow MUCH more then it was Actually capable of, thus putting the owners and other drivers on the road at risk should something happen to the vechicle while towing somethign heavier then the Actual tow capacity.

Having torque reduces is a PITA and not what advertised, but so far we havent seen any hard numbers on just how much torque we're talking about. Still, its not a life safety issue and not the end of the world LOL. If its that big a deal there's lots of tuning boxes out there that will get that torque back and then some, or just dont have the dealer do the reflash.

At the end of the day EVERY vechicle manafacturer has issues with some product. If we keep them inline on safety issues then we're all going to benefit. But if the general public just Sues for every GD problem that comes up, manafacturers speand more $$$ on their own lawyers, then the price of vechicles just goes higher, inflation going up faster.

Seriously, I'm not saying bend over and let DC ream us a new one, just save this crap for the REAL problems.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:46 am 
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action wrote:
I could see a class action suit if this were a genuine safety issure where people could be hurt or something.

That Dakota Trailer towing capacity is a great example. DC put peoples lives in danger by saying the vechicle could tow MUCH more then it was Actually capable of, thus putting the owners and other drivers on the road at risk should something happen to the vechicle while towing somethign heavier then the Actual tow capacity.

Having torque reduces is a PITA and not what advertised, but so far we havent seen any hard numbers on just how much torque we're talking about. Still, its not a life safety issue and not the end of the world LOL. If its that big a deal there's lots of tuning boxes out there that will get that torque back and then some, or just dont have the dealer do the reflash.

At the end of the day EVERY vechicle manafacturer has issues with some product. If we keep them inline on safety issues then we're all going to benefit. But if the general public just Sues for every GD problem that comes up, manafacturers speand more $$$ on their own lawyers, then the price of vechicles just goes higher, inflation going up faster.

Seriously, I'm not saying bend over and let DC ream us a new one, just save this crap for the REAL problems.


The power reduction is not the real problem, It wouldnt make any sense for DC to just go around reducing power on their vehicle without a reason to do so. The REAL problem is the Torque converter. If your torque converter goes out it could definantly be a REAL safety issue. Maybe a class action isnt the way to go, but somehow DC needs to get this fixed.

Maybe they have with this F37 notice, but not for everyone, my CRD is not included in that, so I still have a very real and obvious problem.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:12 pm 
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action wrote:
I could see a class action suit if this were a genuine safety issure where people could be hurt or something.

That Dakota Trailer towing capacity is a great example. DC put peoples lives in danger by saying the vechicle could tow MUCH more then it was Actually capable of, thus putting the owners and other drivers on the road at risk should something happen to the vechicle while towing somethign heavier then the Actual tow capacity.

Having torque reduces is a PITA and not what advertised, but so far we havent seen any hard numbers on just how much torque we're talking about. Still, its not a life safety issue and not the end of the world LOL. If its that big a deal there's lots of tuning boxes out there that will get that torque back and then some, or just dont have the dealer do the reflash...


I wouldn't consider a "saftey issue" as the threshold in determining whether you have a legitmate case. In fact auto manufacturers have already been successfuly taken to the woodshed for just this sort of thing. For example - take the Hyuandai case linked here:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/hyundai_settlement.html
http://www.hagens-berman.com/frontend?command=Lawsuit&task=viewLawsuitDetail&iLawsuitId=1083

Key Hightlights of the case:

1) Hyundai overstated Horse Power figures on about 1.3 million cars, sold from the mid '80's to 2002.
2) Hyundai "misstated" H.P. by as much as 10%.
3) Hyundai estimated that the average misstated h.p. figure among all 1.3 million vehicles was 4.6 horsepower.
4) Like DCX with the Dakota, Hyundai's first aproach in making the issue go away was to buy customers off with extended warranties, roadside assistance plans, free oil changes and discounts on new vehicles.
5) Like with DCX, Hyundai customers didn't bite and pressed on with the suit.
6) Hyundai settled the case. Hyundai's cost: up to $176 million.

Unfortunately, since it was a class action - the "individual" probably would have been better accepting extended warranities and discounts on other vehicles. My point here however, is that this issue with dimished torque may very well be a legitimate case. Note that Hyundai's misstated figures only averaged 4.6 H.P.. The reduction in torque on the Liberty has been rumored to be as much as 20 lb-ft.

There have been other similar cases:

Ford was apparently sued because of an "under-powered" Mustang and 2001 Miata's that were rated for 155 H.P., but in reality only produced 142 H.P..

Nissan was apparantly suied over the Infinity Q45 because it's 0-60 time was about 1 second longer the what Nissan had claimed.

More entertaining reads are linked here:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060313/AUTO01/603130350/1148
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/homepage/article_1311641.php


action wrote:
At the end of the day EVERY vechicle manafacturer has issues with some product. If we keep them inline on safety issues then we're all going to benefit. But if the general public just Sues for every GD problem that comes up, manafacturers speand more $$$ on their own lawyers, then the price of vechicles just goes higher, inflation going up faster...


These problems could be avoided if these companies did due diligence in their design work, didn't cut so many corners trying to maximize profits, and didn't make exaggerated claims in an effort to boost sales. Putting the onus on the consumer to keep cost down by turning the other cheek (and in the process allowing these companies to preserve thier ill gotten booty) – in my mind - is hardly the answer.

action wrote:
Seriously, I'm not saying bend over and let DC ream us a new one, just save this crap for the REAL problems.


What others consider to be a REAL problem may differ from what constitues a REAL grievance for you.

I would say that devaluation in resale value due to lowered specs can by itself cost consumers of the CRD real money - let alone the tarnished reputation that the vehicle has sustained due to reliability and mechanical issues. Lost time dealing with a myriad of issues comes at a real expense. Buying a vehicle is probably the second most costly thing most people purchase – second only to a house. False advertising that leads a customer to make the wrong choice can cause real harm to the buyer, especially when the buyer finds that the vehicle cannot meet the requirements of its intended use. Getting out from under one vehicle and into another comes at a real cost. If this "fix" ends up being a half measure that only serves to allow the vehicle to stay in one piece through the warranty period, then I think its clear that there will be REAL expenses (and therefore REAL damages) that people will have to pay after the warranty expires - both in terms of repair cost and lost longevity of the vehicle.

Many here may not agree with your assessment as to what constitutes a REAL grievance. For the reasons I’ve mentioned above, and for many others, I think those that feel that they have a legitimate case might very well be right. On the simple principle that the buyer should get what they pay for – I think there is no argument. If DCX alters the specifications of the vehicle after the fact, then there is no question that people won’t be getting what they paid for. To ask the customer to just take it and smile, for whatever reason – well I for one find that to be unacceptable.


Last edited by T^2 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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