Any Biodiesel Homebrewers?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

In some parts of the country, the rendering companies have links to organized crime, and they are particularly sensitive to having private parties horn in on their territory.

LOL - I don't doubt it.... wonder if they haul it away in long, black caddys.

BTW, good discussion on the real effort of making biodiesel. For an eye opener on the effects of using UVO, even on an old Benz, look at www.blackstone-labs.com. They have some sample reports online, and a quiz on one of them. Turns out, the owner of the old Benz was running UVO.
The oil condition was so bad, it went far beyond anything else they found. It also answered a question I've had about using old cooking oil, that is, no matter how you strain it, how carefully you remove the water and debris, how do you get the salt, sugar and other spices that immersed food would deposit and then dissolve in the oil? The oil analysis shows that the dissolved salt ends up in the motor oil, which turns into a very thick goo. I would think oil change intervals of 3K would be advisable for biodiesel made from UVO. If you look at the report, look at the viscosity and sodium (a major ingredient of table salt) figures.

greiswig · **Posted:** Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:49 pm

With biodiesel, the process of making it tends to take the sugars and solids out of it, since they are far more soluble in the glycerine than in the methyl esters. Typically, even the catalyst only exists as the metallic part (K or Na) in very small quantities. The main reason to reduce your change intervals with biodiesel would be to avoid having it get past the rings and contaminate the oil, and then polymerize. Usually not an issue except with older engines with poor rings.

UFO · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:25 pm

skywarn wrote:

for a two tank system, The Grease Car . Com site has a CRD WVO tank you can put in your "trunk" and is set up as a false bottem look.

i know 4 people who are running this system in there truck. From what ive heard the customer support is very good. and the product is built very well.

but then we are back to the $$$ part... to convert to a duel tank sys your looking at $3,500!! PLUS, you have to make a mental note to start the car on Diesel, let tank #2 heat up to the 140 deg mark, switch tanks to WVO tank... drive...then when you get with in 5 min of where your going, switch back to diesel tank, purge WVO fuel lines, then turn car off.... and of you forget to switch tanks on a 70deg day... forget it... better get out the hair dryer.... :shock:

This eBay listing is not helping the WVO in a CRD case.....On 2nd engine due to oil polymerization. I am looking to buy a KJ CRD, but this one is off the list.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2006-Jeep-Liberty-2-8L-CRD-Diesel-SVO-WVO-System_W0QQitemZ320104498841QQihZ011QQcategoryZ43916QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

DadsDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:22 pm

dgeist wrote:

DadsDiesel wrote:

Hi,

........... That's why I plan on running wvo in a two tank system. Forget all the processing.

Like it or not, modern diesels were designed to run on #2 fuel oil. IF we use a different feed stock, we have to make it behave like #2. Either change the feed stock [make bio-d] or change fuel delivery [use two tank wvo conversion] to make the oil behave like #2.

Dad

Dad, have you found a way to account for the behavior of the electronic fuel injectors and the much more viscous veggie oil? I've seen MANY (albeit unsubstantiated) oppinions that newer common-rail designs are not well suited to WVO/SVO.

Dan

I guess it depends on which camp you are in. The Ford/IH 7.3 has been converted with much success. The CTD CRD is just now being converted. I don't know much about the VW TDi's but I have heard stories about them both good and bad.

160 degree F. wvo reportedly has similar viscosity to #2 diesel.

Biodiesel isn't too hard to make, I have done a few small batches, Dr. Pepper method. WVO still needs to be filtered and dewatered before processing. You still have to use methanol and KOH which are both hazardous. Then dispose of the byproduct. Then, B100 still has an issue running in colder weather so it needs to be blended with #2. IMO Bio-d still depends too much on OPEC.

A wvo conversion is heating the clean, dry oil to 160 degrees and switchover isn't done till engine reaches operating temp. The only extra step I can see is making sure you purge before shutdown. Like during the turbo cool down minute?!? Even if you forget to purge and shut the engine off, just restart and purge. Good systems will have a buzzer to remind you to purge. I suppose if you had a shutdown delay timer it could be wired to purge at the same time.

IF you are a "pump-and-go" type of person neither bio-d or wvo is for you. Just remember, you are paying for that convenience.

Dad

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:52 pm

DadsDiesel wrote:

160 degree F. wvo reportedly has similar viscosity to #2 diesel.

Dad

Really? For what feed stock oil? Given the large disparity in solidification temps between, say, partially hydrogenated peanut oil and canola, I would be surprised. And, indeed, a quick search yields the following: http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27

I guess it depends on what you mean by "similar."

Again, I'm just trying to save folks some headaches...

UFO · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:53 pm

DadsDiesel wrote:

...
160 degree F. wvo reportedly has similar viscosity to #2 diesel.
...

Only if you think an order of magnitude (within10x) is similar. I don't. CRD technology has less tolerance for high viscosity fuel than a Benz IDI engine. That's probably part of the reason Golden Fuel's CRD died; the other part is undoubtedly cold oil, as they have one of the worst systems on the market.

DadsDiesel wrote:

...
WVO still needs to be filtered and dewatered before processing. You still have to use methanol and KOH which are both hazardous. Then dispose of the byproduct. Then, B100 still has an issue running in colder weather so it needs to be blended with #2. IMO Bio-d still depends too much on OPEC.
...

Biodiesel processing needs no dewatering or filtering before processing unless you dive into grease dumpsters where there is drain water. A cursory filtering is all that's needed for the final product. When I burned WVO in my Benz, I used more petroleum to start and purge in my 20 mile commute than I use during the winter months mixing biodiesel. And the spring, summer and fall I run B100.

DadsDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:25 am

As far as viscosity, I can only relay the information I have read. Yes, viscosity is higher than #2. However if you check the chart, at 160 deg. F. about 72 deg. C. the oil viscosity appears to be within 5 centistoke points of #2 petrodiesel at 32 deg F. From the text that the chart is taken from, it is reported that petro-diesel viscosity is 8 centistoks at I am assuming room temp. at 160deg. F. oil is about 25-28 centistokes or about 3-4 times more, not 10 times more. - I will however try to research injector behaviour of the units used by the Libby.

As far as GFS quality, I have stated elsewhere that I wouldn't trust my $25K Libby with a GFS system. Not having personal experience with a GFS system, and only knowing what I have read, I had to refrain from making direct comments about his system.

Short of a Vegistroke system which is only developed for Ford PSD and about to be released for the CTD CRD's the ONLY system I will trust is Frybrid's. Greasecar is in my backyard but I wouldn't trust their system either.

what type of system did you use in your Benz? Perhaps the system was the cause for the high #2 usage?

My issue(s) with bio-d is/are:
1. From what I have read both on the infopop website and the localB100 site as well has having purchased and read Girl Mark's book, wvo should be dewatered prior to processing due to the soapification reaction when processing, i.e. the more water in the oil the more soap made. The better the filtering the less water in the oil that is attached to the debris.
2. Bio-d should be washed to remove un-reacted lye.
3. Methanol fumes need to be vented if not recovered.
4. What do you do with the byproduct. like when processing 50 gallons of oil and using 11 gallons of methanol @$3-5/gallon you get approx 11 gallons of byproduct yes?
5. Titrating wvo to account for FFA.
6. Having to break emulsions on a batch gone bad.
and lastly
7. Ending up with a processor full of goo from a batch gone bad.

Even after all of this, the home brew may be of great quality and the engine still may suffer no? Once again because of blow-by in a cold engine, bio-d ends up in the crankcase where it polymerizes.

I have said before, if you are thinking of brewing or going the wvo route because you just want to save "gas money" or are making a stretch each month to make the car payment - DON'T DO IT!!

Now, if you are crazy like me :shock:

come on down off the porch, do your homework, and have some fun! Some of the nicest people I have met are greasers and homebrewers!

Dad.

fatweasel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:14 am

"Now, if you are crazy like me come on down off the porch, do your homework, and have some fun! Some of the nicest people I have met are greasers and homebrewers! "

I definitely fall into that camp!

Still doing my research and looking for a place to set up (i don't plan to do this at my residence).

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:54 am

DadsDiesel wrote:

As far as viscosity, I can only relay the information I have read. Yes, viscosity is higher than #2. However if you check the chart, at 160 deg. F. about 72 deg. C. the oil viscosity appears to be within 5 centistoke points of #2 petrodiesel at 32 deg F. From the text that the chart is taken from, it is reported that petro-diesel viscosity is 8 centistoks at I am assuming room temp. at 160deg. F. oil is about 25-28 centistokes or about 3-4 times more, not 10 times more. - I will however try to research injector behaviour of the units used by the Libby.

As far as GFS quality, I have stated elsewhere that I wouldn't trust my $25K Libby with a GFS system. Not having personal experience with a GFS system, and only knowing what I have read, I had to refrain from making direct comments about his system.

Short of a Vegistroke system which is only developed for Ford PSD and about to be released for the CTD CRD's the ONLY system I will trust is Frybrid's. Greasecar is in my backyard but I wouldn't trust their system either.

what type of system did you use in your Benz? Perhaps the system was the cause for the high #2 usage?

My issue(s) with bio-d is/are:
1. From what I have read both on the infopop website and the localB100 site as well has having purchased and read Girl Mark's book, wvo should be dewatered prior to processing due to the soapification reaction when processing, i.e. the more water in the oil the more soap made. The better the filtering the less water in the oil that is attached to the debris.
2. Bio-d should be washed to remove un-reacted lye.
3. Methanol fumes need to be vented if not recovered.
4. What do you do with the byproduct. like when processing 50 gallons of oil and using 11 gallons of methanol @$3-5/gallon you get approx 11 gallons of byproduct yes?
5. Titrating wvo to account for FFA.
6. Having to break emulsions on a batch gone bad.
and lastly
7. Ending up with a processor full of goo from a batch gone bad.

Even after all of this, the home brew may be of great quality and the engine still may suffer no? Once again because of blow-by in a cold engine, bio-d ends up in the crankcase where it polymerizes.

I have said before, if you are thinking of brewing or going the wvo route because you just want to save "gas money" or are making a stretch each month to make the car payment - DON'T DO IT!!

Now, if you are crazy like me :shock:

come on down off the porch, do your homework, and have some fun! Some of the nicest people I have met are greasers and homebrewers!

Dad.

5 centistokes is quite a bit of difference, and could be outside of the tolerance for the system. I understand some of the newer Mercedes diesels cannot even tolerate high percentages of biodiesel in their common rail systems, and that is not very much margin IMHO. I built my own WVO system for my first Benz, and it always took a long time to warm up. At least 4 miles, which is 25% of my commute. And WVO was useless for shorter tirps. I am in complete agreement with you on who makes the better WVO conversions out there, and the only one I would trust is Frybrid. However, at my fuel useage, it would take 5 years for me to pay back the inverstment, where B100 has already paid off for me (took 6 months), and I can use the fuel in ALL my diesels without conversion.

1) Again, if your oil comes out of fryers with no contamination, dewatering is NOT necessary for making biodiesel, but still necessary for burning WVO straight. I know, because I've been making it now for over two years with no issues. And I do not filter it either, all the debris settles out in the glycerol. A 1 micron filter sock is good for over 500 gallons and finished bio simply pours through.
2) I wash.
3) Fumes are vented outside.
4) Byproduct goes into the landfill, it is biodiegradeable. I use potassium hydroxide, not sodium.
5) Titrating takes 5 minutes, literally.
6, 7) Never had an emulsion, or a bad batch.

There are quick and easy tests to determine effective conversion, and even if you got 1% triglycerides remaining in your bio, that's 1% veggie oil in your bio. Not an issue compared to 70% WVO or even 100% WVO.

skywarn · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:57 am

DadsDiesel wrote:

My issue(s) with bio-d is/are:
1. From what I have read both on the infopop website and the localB100 site as well has having purchased and read Girl Mark's book, wvo should be dewatered prior to processing due to the soapification reaction when processing, i.e. the more water in the oil the more soap made. The better the filtering the less water in the oil that is attached to the debris.
2. Bio-d should be washed to remove un-reacted lye.
3. Methanol fumes need to be vented if not recovered.
4. What do you do with the byproduct. like when processing 50 gallons of oil and using 11 gallons of methanol @$3-5/gallon you get approx 11 gallons of byproduct yes?
5. Titrating wvo to account for FFA.
6. Having to break emulsions on a batch gone bad.
and lastly
7. Ending up with a processor full of goo from a batch gone bad.

Dad.

1 - storing WVO in a tank outside water will go away; also water goes to the bottom of the tank thus you pull from the middle
2 - yes, washing is the largest part of the process that’s why I can say there is no water in BD, cause if there is; you haven’t finished making the batch of fuel
3 - sure do, however so does filling you lawnmower in your garage
4 - byproduct is great stuff!! Your drains will never be cleaner! or let it set in the sun and 2 days later you have soap! or you can sell it to a shade tree guy to be used as a parts cleaner, or use it on your lawn, and garden. It helps speeds up your compost pile.
5 - only if you’re mixing oil from diff places. If you have one good source then once a month will work.
6 - this one just sucks... the only way to pass this one is to have two wash tanks and or a "oops" tank
7 - if you do #5 right this wont happen...

Ive done all of my homework and I love doing it. And yes, we are the best people you can meet! =o)
We all have good points; I choose to run b-100 and am in a place where if something goes wrong I can fix it and share it with yall. But so far after 50k+ miles she still purrs!!!

chadhargis · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:45 pm

I don't do enough miles to justify brewing my own, but I'd be VERY interested in getting some small batches. I'm still looking for a co-op around here. If I could buy, say, 50 gallons of it, then I could mix it with petro diesel and save a bunch of money. I've been running B20 in my CRD, and it runs great. I can tell a difference in the smell alone.

From what I've read, B20 contains more cetane, over time will clean deposits out (and plug your filter if not changed often enough), burns cleaner (less soot), and in my area, is about ten cents cheaper than petro diesel.

Regular unleaded is 2.89...same as petro diesel. B20 is $2.79, and it's better fuel. Cool!!

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:32 pm

chadhargis wrote:

I don't do enough miles to justify brewing my own, but I'd be VERY interested in getting some small batches. I'm still looking for a co-op around here. If I could buy, say, 50 gallons of it, then I could mix it with petro diesel and save a bunch of money. I've been running B20 in my CRD, and it runs great. I can tell a difference in the smell alone.

Chad, have you tried any of:
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/showstate.asp?st=TN

chadhargis · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:35 pm

Yep...I've printed maps to all my local pumps.

I am currently running B20. It seems to run fine.

But if I could find a group of folks brewing their own B100, then I could cut it down myself. I figure if I joined up with a group of folks, I'd be able to buy the B100 for less than a buck a gallon, then dilute it with petro.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:25 pm

chadhargis wrote:

Yep...I've printed maps to all my local pumps.

I am currently running B20. It seems to run fine.

But if I could find a group of folks brewing their own B100, then I could cut it down myself. I figure if I joined up with a group of folks, I'd be able to buy the B100 for less than a buck a gallon, then dilute it with petro.

Well, if you have a trailer, some barrels, and some time, there are several producers in the I75 corridor of north GA ... unless 4 hours is too far

skywarn · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:44 pm

just to point one very overlooked point about Bio-D

most people i have met all want to "co-op" I myself have had many people wanting to buy into my set up. the probs with this are very clear once you start making your own...

you just cant join a co-op and just buy fuel, you must spend a large amount of time making it as well. what ends up happening is you spend more time making it then its worth buying. ( how much is your free time worth an hour?) and/or some other "owner" messed up a batch now there is no fuel and you have to fix his/her mistake. with so many people making the fuel, do you truly know what your buying? (im talking about noncommercial co-op's)

i feel safe running b-100 cause i know there is no water in it and i filter to 0.5 microns before it goes into the tank... plus i know where the oil came from and that it was pulled from the middle of the holding tank.

it keeps coming up a lot on the thread, "Bad bio-fuel can and will hurt your CRD" this is very true, so just be very carful when buying into a Co-Op

DadsDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:23 am

Quote:

it keeps coming up a lot on the thread, "Bad bio-fuel can and will hurt your CRD" this is very true, so just be very carful when buying into a Co-Op

Yes, and bad #2 will kill your CRD too. I always go to a high volume station that sells a lot of #2.

Here is an interesting thought, I have seen on forums where bio-fuel use is bashed because someone "has a friend" that fried an IP or points to Charlie's fried engine in his Libby or [ insert story here ]... and they conclude that they will never use a bio-fuel and that it is just a fad on the lunatic fringe of Birkenstock wearing, tree hugging, left over hippie types. However, what they, and sometimes us who care to walk on the fringe forget, is that the engines and lubricants are all designed to work with petro-diesel! If those wells hadn't been struck in Texas so long ago, perhaps bio-fuel would be the norm that the engines would be spec'ed to and most if not all of these "problems" wouldn't exist.

Dad

chadhargis · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:50 am

I agree....ANY bad fuel will harm your engine. I've seen guys get a bad tank of gas and have problems, so it's not limited to oil burners.

If you look at the benefit of GOOD biodiesel, it is a superior fuel to petro in all areas except NOx output. As a moderate conservative, I'm the last one who'll be jumping on the "global warming" liberal bandwagon. I love the outdoors, and I want a clean environment, but I don't think I've ever hugged a tree.

The benefits of biodiesel are too many to ignore:

- Better lube qualities
- Solvent qualities which both clean and prevent deposits
- Cleaner burning (less soot and crap to gunk up your engine)
- Higher cetane rating
- Smoother running
- Non toxic
- Biodegradable
- Renewable
- Supports American farmers

Even if it were identical to petro diesel in your engine, the other benefits are enough to make this a viable alternative fuel.

The big downside I've been reading about is the cost to make it. Maybe that's why it's not as viable as it could be. But heck, how much does it cost to load up a tanker full of oil and float it across the Atlantic? Then there is the production volume. Even if every farmer in the US grew rapeseed or soybeans for fuel, we'd not have enough, and we'd all be hungry.

So, for now, I'd like to hook up with someone brewing their own. Let them teach me how and I can help. The benefit would be good, cheap fuel. Who knows what you're getting out of a retail pump? If you make it yourself, or know who is making it, then you pretty well know what you're getting.

Any Biodiesel Homebrewers?

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