More diesel Bashing

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:20 pm

Yeah, it really isnt feasible with current technology. But the tech has come a long way in a short time....hopefully it will continue to improve.

Now if you had a large solar panel array at home I suppose you could charge one battery there all day, and just swap them out when you get home. Of course you would want a diesel generator onboard as a backup........I bet my grandkids will have some pretty cool stuff when they are my age...

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

DarbyWalters wrote:

I have always wondered why these vehicles don't have solar panels as a roof...sits in the parking lot and charges up for free...drives during the day and charges up for free.

People are already experimenting with solar augmented hybrids, albeit along slightly different lines:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08 ... augme.html

This guy's goal was not to use solar to charge his batteries, but rather to use solar to provide additional electricity resources to his hybrid drive while he was actually driving the car (sort of like using a regenerative braking system to provide additional resources). The result was a roughly 10% fuel economy increase in a Prius. Fairly cheap to do, and would provide the same benefit to any other hybrid.

danoid · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 pm

BiodieselJeep.com wrote:

Danoid:

Without getting you into trouble, can I ask you what is in the works?

A couple of guys out my way have mofdified their hybrids to become plug-ins. All for fun, of course, but they seem to work nicely and get them well over the 100mpg mark for most of their commuting (this is, of course, counting the electricity as "free"). Amortizing the extra batteries and electronics over the expected life of the batteries, they don't feel they are saving a whole heap of money at $3/gallon gas. I even sold my last totalled TDI to some clever boys who are maing it into a diesel-electric hybrid.

It DOES seem that if these guys can do it pretty easily. And 100mpg s certainly a show-stopper. So, you boys up in Michigan must be up to something plug-in 'cause it sure looks easy enough? A couple of concept cars could really improve the Big 3 image.

Hate to rain on your parade but I know of no plans for my company to make plug in hybrids. Personally, having also worked for an electrical utility, I'm not sure I agree with the concept that plug-in is a real benefit. I've seen the miracle of electrical power generation and transmission, and that industry has my respect as something difficult to maintain.

"Easy enough?" People who are smart enough to modify a hybrid and be able to charge balance a NiMH battery pack are not your 'average' customers. (I'm sure that the first guy - the one who told everyone else how to do it - spent a whole boatload of time figuring it out.)

Also, in a litigation happy environment like the US today, we can't even make a vehicle for 'average' customers. We have to make a vehicle idiot proof. Our reliability standards also seem to limit what we do, but do you remember that internet joke that went around a few years ago about what would happen if Microsoft made cars? My point with that one is car buyers get really upset with 'updates' - they call them recalls - but other industries made it part and parcel to operation. Try turning off software recalls (Microsoft calls it Automatic Updates) and see how happy the computer is...

If I had the time and money, my CRD would end up as a mild hybrid (basically stop-start only - good for 10% improvement in city EPA) but I need it to drive every day to work. No time to tear the front end off and tinker.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Have to agree on plug in hybrids, they are not much of a solution. All it does is move the energy problem from the vehicle to the grid, which is just as on the edge as our oil supply. Furthermore since the power is generated in plants, you have transmission loss, which can be up to 70% of the power generated. Not a good solution short or long term...

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:11 am

Reflex wrote:

Have to agree on plug in hybrids, they are not much of a solution. All it does is move the energy problem from the vehicle to the grid, which is just as on the edge as our oil supply. Furthermore since the power is generated in plants, you have transmission loss, which can be up to 70% of the power generated. Not a good solution short or long term...

*Displaced emissions vehicle*

I make one point for anyone running an electric vehicle that claims its a "Zero Emissions Vehicle" no its not, most likely you are getting power from a coal plant 200 miles away.

Now if you have a windfarm, or other "clean" or "carbon-free" source of energy, thats a step forward.

Isnt toyota going to have a plugin hybrid on the market next year? or was it someone else?

danoid · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:12 am

If anyone is curious, this is what I can share about what I'm working on.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/06/aspen-hybrid.html

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:31 am

It is time for vehicles to get 20 or more city and 25 or more highway. 5.7L Hemi/Hybrid...Why?

V6 Diesel/Hybrid sounds much better...more efficient...and the electric benefit would help with EPA issues.

But I guess you have to start somewhere...

curtis · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:53 am

Just adding my 2 cents worth here.

I know everyone is concerned about the environment, but what will we do with all the batteries that will need to be replaced in these hybrids or electric vechicles? To me it sounds like these new vehicles will create a new batch of problems down the road.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:35 am

Don't totally discount plug-ins. The electric grid is not like the electric grid in your house, you don't just turn it on and off. The electric grid needs a load and serving plugins during off peak for the grid (nights) isn't really a bad thing. Threre are also some experiments, one in Austin or San Antonio, where plug ins become part of the grid storage system, reducing demands during the peak. The concept is that you charge at night durning off peak then during the day the plug ins become a huge supplemental cell to the grid plugged in at work during peak. It is a "outside the box" concept that in early testing seems to have some promise.

Jeger · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:15 am

curtis wrote:

Just adding my 2 cents worth here.

I know everyone is concerned about the environment, but what will we do with all the batteries that will need to be replaced in these hybrids or electric vechicles? To me it sounds like these new vehicles will create a new batch of problems down the road.

You recycle them? This is another area that I hope to see the technology grow quite a bit. Of course electricity is not the only way to store the suns energy. It is the easiest and most readily used right now though.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:35 pm

danoid wrote:

If anyone is curious, this is what I can share about what I'm working on.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/06/aspen-hybrid.html

Cool! Thanks for sharing!

Now, some enterprising young man will see this SUVwith nice strong suspension and say "Hmm, I could load a lot of batteries in there..."

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Cool tech on the Aspen Hybrid, but I have to concur with others on the MPG. The hybrid drive train will boost the MPG up to around the levels of the CRD Grand Cherokee... hmm... what would the MPG be if the 3.0 CRD was stuck in it, along with a 6 speed auto tranny? And perhaps some work on weight savings through lighter materials in the hood, roof, interior, etc...

I'm not a fan of trying to mate hybrid tech to traditional gasoline drive trains, especially big heavy ones. Seems like what folks tried to do in the early 1900s... sticking a gas engine in what was a essentially a horse and buggy.

On NPR this morning they were interviewing an economist with the International Energy Agency about their new forecast on energy prices and production, which pointed to oil potentially going over $100 bucks a barrel in the next 5 years due to increasing demand from developing countries, and decreasing resources for OPEC, particularly Saudi Arabia. I am fearful that taxpayers are going to get stuck with another multi-billion dollar bailout of one or more US automakers if this happens.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:09 pm

Threeweight wrote:

On NPR this morning they were interviewing an economist with the International Energy Agency about their new forecast on energy prices and production, which pointed to oil potentially going over $100 bucks a barrel in the next 5 years due to increasing demand from developing countries, and decreasing resources for OPEC, particularly Saudi Arabia. I am fearful that taxpayers are going to get stuck with another multi-billion dollar bailout of one or more US automakers if this happens.

Oh, they are already lining up for a bail-out! I give even odds that even with oil stable in 3 years you'll see one of the big three get bailed out, bought out, or radically changed.

Oh, wait, that ALREADY happened to DC....!!!!!

DadsDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:49 pm

I got bot-edited on my response to the article.

How socialistic!!!!!

I like the way folks talk about "plug-in" electrics. I don't know about you all but my monthly electric bill has doubled since "dub-ya" has been in office. No radical changes in my consumption either.

I'll take Libby and all her quirks... At least I will be one of the few drivers left on the road with the other diesels :shock:

KenJennings · **Posted:** Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 am

CNN has a short article and pictures about the American Council for Energy-Efficient Economy rankings. Several of the so-called "Meanest" vehicles are diesels and mileage doesn't appear to be the factor for some of these "mean" vehicles. Agenda? Nah. I figure if the Liberty CRD was still for sale it would be on the "mean" list. I'm surprised there are no gas Jeeps in with the top 10 meanies. (Edit: Oops! The Grand Cherokee CRD is there. It doesn't look like a Wrangler or a Liberty, so I tend not to recognize it as a Jeep in pictures. But, where are the low-mileage gassers? )

CNN Greenest and Meanest

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:56 am

Again the average person is going to beleive anything they see in print. How on earth do they rate an MB CDI worse than a ford superduty gasser? people must be educated.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:20 am

I think the guys that did that list are stuck in the 70's.

Pretty obvious from looking at their list that trucks, SUV's, and diesels are not politically correct, while hybrids and Japanese econoboxes are.

Why weren't any VW TDI's on the list? Better fuel mileage than 2/3 of their "greenest" choices. I'd bet that even if the VW Lupo were offered for sale in this country (85 to 90 mpg diesel) they would have passed it over for their green list, and may even have found a way to put it on their mean list.

How does a Lincoln Navigator get a better score than a ML 320 CDI that gets twice the fuel mileage? Half of their mean list are diesels, for no apparent reason except that they're diesels.

More than a little political and monetary motivation behind those rankings IMO.

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