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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:24 pm 
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Reflex wrote:
DarbyWalters wrote:
From a previous post from MrMopar64...he stated that the 2.8L we have would be good (he said safe as I remember) to 460nm torque. These results are within that parmeter. After that 460 number the Aluminum head would be suspect...something to that effect.

Sure, but what about the transmission? Drive line? etc etc. No part of the machine operates in a vaccum, change one thing and you affect dozens of other systems.


MrMopar also recently stated the newest version or our weak tranny for 08 has been brought up to 450nm. The same transfer case was used in the 4.0L I6 in the Cherokees and held up fine even though you could feel the body flex :lol: The chrysler 8.25 rear differential is the same :!: But they used a Asin AW4 tranny in the XJ :)
Before you start, our tranny is WEAK or they would not have reduced the output of our engines under F37 :shock: Not to mention improving it both for 07 and 08 :P

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:38 pm 
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Reflex...as usual you don't really contribute any information to the discussion. You point to "not operating in a vaccum" but don't offer any "evidence" <which you are always asking for> to refute the point. You just list drivetrain, transmission, ect, ect...that doesn't add anything according to your own empherical evidence standards. I think most here know that one mod can affect other parts down the line...which is "evidenced" by many posts in this forum. If any evidence is supplied, such as Dyno Charts, expert opinions from people on the build team, or experience of others...you tend to gloss over it and return to your doomday rhetoric. This forum is here to come up with SOLUTIONS or IMPROVEMENTS for our Jeeps...brainstorming...formulating ideas...ect...they all won't work but one idea feeds off another until a solution is found...

Don't get me wrong, I do understand your position most of the time, but I don't understand your approach without suggested solutions. It seems to be the glass...half full or half empty...and you always seem to err on the half empty side of the glass.

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Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:57 pm 
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Not being a mechanic I do not have mechanical suggestions. My points come from the point of view of being a test engineer for a living(although in software, not cars). The principles of test engineering apply to any product however, and that is why I raise the questions I do. Yes it can appear to be very negative, but like the scientific method itself its based on testing each possibility until what remains is the truth. Being as I understand the design process and the inherant trade offs that go into bringing any product to market, I find it dissapointing when people on forums simply assume that everything is the result of penny pinching or poor engineering.

In the specific context of this discussion, my point is that changing any one point can affect other systems, often in completely unexpected ways. That is why I tend to shy away from these types of mods, I know the KJ was tested as a whole in its stock configuration and it does just work. That does not mean that its 'wrong' to make changes, but then I see threads where people imply that its only a workable platform with X, Y and Z mods that they personally did to their own rig and found to be 'better'(which is typically untested, and is likely placebo effect in many cases). To me that is bad advice. Relating their experience is one thing, but implying that such changes are necessary to enjoy the product is more a sense of self-justification of the time and money they spent than good advice to a new purchaser.

In software I see this all the time. The products I have worked on are extremely commonly used(I'm sure you can see my IP), and end users often mod them extensively. And while they can often get 'better performance' or 'extra features' they then oftentimes do not understand the relationships between one DLL and others that depend on it, and as a result end up with what seems to them to be a random and unrelated failure that they have no way of tracing back to that mod they made months before. They also do not have the insight of working with various partners, oftentimes in ways that may to the uninformed seem detrimental to the product, but which is based on a number of factors that are necessary for legal, economic or end user issues that may not be common in one market but are in another(I had to deal with an issue that affected millions of users in Japan, and damaged the performance of an earlier release of my product, but was necessary even though US users were unlikely to ever experience the issue that required the compromise). In the auto industry similiar issues arise, whether by private partnerships or by government regulations, and simply blaming the engineers, or assuming that some random mechanic knows more is simple ignorance, and sometimes arrogance.

Yes, this is a very high level response, and intentionally so. As I said, I am not a mechanic. I am not going to state whether one mod or another works. I am only questioning the overall concept from the basis of my experience in similiar situations. I certainly have NO objection to people modding thier cars, its obviously a hobby. My problem really only comes in when such mods are treated as 'necessary' or as correcting some inherant flaw in the product(not to say its flawless, the first thing you learn in test engineering is that there is no such thing as a perfect product).

I feel sorry for MrMopar quite frequently. I recognize in his posts the same feeling that I have had to had when interacting on forums relating to my products. He can only say so much for legal reasons, so he speaks authoritatively in the hope that some will recognize that there is more that is likely not being said. But some won't listen, and there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:38 pm 
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True about MrMopar64...and he hopes we can read between the lines to get the "extras" :wink:

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Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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