The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

bugnout · **Posted:** Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:06 pm

This is great stuff guys, Quite an education. :wink:

Uffe · **Posted:** Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:15 pm

gmctd wrote:

I really appreciate your input from "inside" - this stuff is extremely difficult to come by, even on the 'net, prolly due to the EPA restrictions on modification - most of this CRD stuff I pick up on the various forums by noting the complaint, then analyzing the results of various suggested fixes, workable or not, then determining how the failure resulted the various reported symptoms - sort of back-engineering by failure analysis, probably the easiest way to learn, for me - it can leave some unanswered questions, but then later another complaint will add another bit of data, and another, then the answer is clearer - noting repeated complaints of CP3 seal leakage by the members with 45psi lift pumps is revealing (to me, but not to them) - noting the mechanical modifications to the CP3 to obtain greater volume and pressure output is also informative - prolly also helps to have a background in flow measurement and process control - these EFI systems are just mini-microcosms of the large petro-chemical systems I worked with

Interesting to hear about your background gmctd.

I am a fairly newly educated guy within control theory, and I've worked at a large european pump manufacturer for a year, so flow and pressure in hydraulics is something I've become a little aquainted with. I haven't been hard-core into the hydraulics but for motor control purposes I know a bit about it

As you say it is very interesting to gain knowledge from "insiders", because most of what we can else say is so general there is little actual use for it. Things like "don't overpressurize your common rail" don't mean a lot to people

Out of curiosity, which petro-chemical plants did you work for?

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:10 pm

I was employed by a company that designed and manufactured various computers, analyzers and associated measurement and control equipment largely used in the industry, also supplying complete packaged systems on huge skids, using ours or whichever equipment the customer specified - 10yrs in Cal and Certification, 20yrs as Sr Field Service Engineer in Customer Service

The automotive side has been strictly for love of the sport, over half a century with a wrench in my hand, some of that with a wench in my hand............

CATCRD · **Posted:** Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:42 pm

Thank you MrMopar for confirming what I have been telling people about pressure boxes and expected pump longevity.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

Interesting discussion. Yes, where you measure rail pressure is important. Measuring OBD data is useless since it is "fooled" data. It has to be a direct measurement. I am one that doesn't believe in raising rail pressure. Change the pressure cruve, maybe, but that's different. My concerns come from what I've seen on the Cummins forums with cracked an failed injectors. They are common enough with stock pressure and increased with pressure boxes. The rail pressure relief valve is known to give way with some boxes and that is set and 26K. So that means the CP3 is putting out 26K psi, which is more than stock. You can't get more power out from pressure box without increasing pressure beyond what the factory set at max. Even thought making the CP3 work harder will shorten its functional lifespan some, my big concern is the injectors. A cracked/damaged/leaking injector can cause holed pistons and general engine destruction. I have elected to leave my Cummins pressure alone. A little tweak of the Libby pressure for mileage is probably OK, especially if driven sensibly. But I have elected to change only timing and duration on my big boy.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

We don't have alot to go on here, as the manufacturers are so tight lipped about what their boxes do-- but they do post dyno numbers. When you look at those numbers you can see that they flatten the torque curve out more than they raise the peak torque. It would seem to me that they spike the rail pressure more when the system is under lower rail pressure to begin with (lower fuel load), and not so much around the maximum.

I would think this state of things is especially true with the European chip that is TUV certified. The Euro government says it does not invalidate the manufacturer warranty or exceed its design parameters. If that is indeed the case, then that TUV chip ought to give us an idea of what kind of performance is possible in a fooler box, without going out of bounds.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:33 am

TUV appears to be an expensive Eurpoean certification - the US boxes don't do it and the only one I've seen is the Digi Tuner & it's the most expensive $600+

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:52 pm

You may be forgetting, Tinman, that those CRD Cummins with rail pressure problems also have jacked pumps, some professionally, some home-jacked - that's not in the same category as oem stock trucks with only power-adder boxes and am lift pump (you may also notice that those with recurring seal problems are usually running am lift pumps) - some also are running dual stacked turbos and 60psi pressure, again not the same scenario - only jacking done here is to the chassis (ours is jacked 2") and to the axle with the flat tire.

Bosch spec for the CP3 in the DMax, the Cummins, and the Jeep is stated as 23206psia (housing pressure in the Dmax and Cummins version is 180psi, Jeep is 73psi, each factory-set in the COV valve) - while it's not absolutely clear if that's ECM limit or mechanical limit, it is my contention that 23206 is mechanical max unless the pump is jacked

As stated, only an aux rail pressure guage will tell the tale - that may only require connecting a Fluke DVM across the Rail Pressure sensor, noting reading at 4500psi@idle, comparing max voltage value with powerbox in stock setting to value in max setting, and some interpolation equating displayed value to pressure - quick comparison of reading on sensor side of box to reading on output side can give some sense of the fudge factor - a nice differential voltmeter would work wonders, here (just so happens that there is one or two specimens in Dr. Frankenstein's lab)

It is also my contention that, while the powerboxes work by offsetting the RP and MAP inputs, ECM programming limits max upper pressure, such that the boxes are 'allowed' to offset any pressure below max - that would mean that a cheap powerbox would give extra power early, but less power at the top - a quality box would give extra power early, but taper off to allow ECM control at the high end, so power would be as normal - this fits with the flattened Dyno torque curves - delimiting Boost would fit with higher power at the upper end (*limit Boost and ECM will pull fuel to compensate - try it: you won't like it!) - both sensors are precision +5v sourced, so a CMOS uprocessor drawing uamps would cause no problems or errors on each ECM input, much like taking a measurement with a 12megohm DVM

However, this is somewhat conjectural, as I got nuttin' to play with.....................

*Works quite well as a Valet Switch, tho!

CATCRD · **Posted:** Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:23 pm

Quote:

Question: What is the max fuel pressure that the MP-8 will produce?
Answer: The TS Performance MP-8 does not exceed 26,000 psi of fuel rail pressure. The factory fuel rail pressure can be ran 29,000 all day long and not damage anything. ( That info came direct from BOSCH).

Question: How does the MP-8 make 100hp+ without raising rail pressure beyond factory specs?
Answer: The Mp-8 is the only box on the market of it’s kind. Both the map sensor and the fuel pressure sensor are fully programmable. By reprogramming the map sensor signal you achieve several things… 1) since the map senor thinks it is at different boost level it will add injection timing accordingly. 2) This is the primary reason we don’t have to raise rail pressure beyond factory specs and risk damaging engines.

Question: Is the MP-8 a timing box?Answer: No it is not, however with the ability to reprogram the map sensor we can add injection timing to fit the consumers application.

Question: Can the MP-8 be stacked with other Modules?
Answer: Yes it can be. Make sure the box you are attempting to stack has different functions.( Such as TST etc.) I would also recommend contacting TS Performance before attempting this.

Don't know if this has been posted before, but it's a cut and paste from the TS performance web site. Take their claims for what you will, they are after all trying to sell you something.

First it says 26kpsi, then it says it doesn't exceed factory spec. I guess it depends on your definition of "spec". I would also like to know their source on the 29kpsi number. (The 100hp # is not claimed for the Liberty, but for pickup applications)
It clearly states that it's not a "timing box", but states that you can alter injection timing by altering the boost the ECU sees. I believe that part.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:00 am

So what do you think about the Workhorse Module? This product raises fuel pressure. Up to 15 % Fuel increase, 45 Extra Horsepower and 90 ft. lbs. of Torque

http://www.usdieselchips.com/site/16221 ... -45HP-90LB

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I have gathered so far. The Workhorse is related to Dr. Performance Diesel Products. The Workhorse is an in-line module (not a programmer) that plugs directly in at the ICP (Injection Control Pressure Sensor) plug and has a map sensor wire connection. The Module does not reprogram the factory ECM settings nor does it reprogram the factory fuel delivery. In addition, the module does not circumvent factory fuel delivery (over fuel) and is a very easy on and off application. The module raises the fuel rail pressure to create a microscopic fuel plume with better fuel/air ratio to the injectors allowing more efficient combustion to take place in each cylinder. In other words, the fuel plume is more enriched with oxygen than the factory fuel delivery because it requires less fuel at a higher injector pressure for combustion. More oxygen molecules (density) creates a better combustion efficiency. The module stays within the factory specifications for maximum injector PSI range. The product advertises that there is NO increase in EGT’s and that gauges (specifically a pyro) is not required. I believe that this is possible as the fuel mix would make more power with less throttle which would mean less fuel burned resulting with lower EGT’s that naturally provokes better fuel mileage.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:02 am

ECM calls for 12000psi - rail pressure sensor sez 12000psi - plug in the module - the module offsets rail pressure sensor output voltage, sending a lower voltage, such that ECM reads only 10000psi - ECM, thinking rail pressure is low, increases output till it reads the voltage corresponding to 12000 psi - now rail pressure is 14000psi = VOILA!!! rail pressure has been increased without blowing the rail off the engine, or launching the injectors thru the hood and into outer space - simple - easy - more power - try it, you'll like it..................

FYI: same with Boost pressure, via the offset MAP output

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:18 am

Okay - but is the module smart enough to know that if the ECU is calling for 25,000 psi that it shouldn't offset that signal by 2,000 psi?? - because the result would be the ECU still calling for 25,000 and the pump trying to hit 27,000 and pressure relief issues at 26,000.

The offset is easy - the smart enough is hard.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:38 pm

I'm thinking ECM begins to taper off soon as it sees voltage level indicating 22000, because rail\tubing\injectors are not designed for higher pressure - you can check your rail design: if it has a blanked-off port opposite each injector outlet port, it is of the new 30000psi rail design - if not, it's not - I'm thinking EDGE and the more expensive boxes factor the output at lower rpms to increase power there where DCJ has limitations due to 545RFE design, fading back to ECM control at higher rpm, where power is normally high at WOT - again, and this is what I would do if I had access to the KJ, a DVM on the Rail Pressure Sensor will tell that tale, comparing WOT 3000rpm voltage without the box to same with the box, compared to readings on your SGII or AE scantool - scantool will display what ECM is seeing in either case, so you should get a fair idea of what is happening without the module, then with the module - since everyone in-the-know is afraid of EPA, Congressional mandates, and the smog cops, and the vendors are proprietarily mum, this is the only way to settle the matter - hopefully RPS output is scaled 0.5-4.5v at 4500-23000psi, allowing overpressure indication from 4.5-5.00v (as an example)

CATCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:16 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

In addition, the module does not circumvent factory fuel delivery (over fuel) and is a very easy on and off application. The module raises the fuel rail pressure to create a microscopic fuel plume with better fuel/air ratio to the injectors allowing more efficient combustion to take place in each cylinder. In other words, the fuel plume is more enriched with oxygen than the factory fuel delivery because it requires less fuel at a higher injector pressure for combustion. More oxygen molecules (density) creates a better combustion efficiency. The module stays within the factory specifications for maximum injector PSI range. The product advertises that there is NO increase in EGT’s and that gauges (specifically a pyro) is not required. I believe that this is possible as the fuel mix would make more power with less throttle which would mean less fuel burned resulting with lower EGT’s that naturally provokes better fuel mileage.

There are a lot of statements in there that contradict each other, and a lot of just plain nonsense, that sounds scientific, but is false, not proveable, or not possible.

First it says it doesn't circumvent factory fueling, then it says it enriches the mixture. Which is it?

Quote:

the fuel plume is more enriched with oxygen than the factory fuel delivery because it requires less fuel at a higher injector pressure for combustion.

This statement makes no sense.

Quote:

The module stays within the factory specifications for maximum injector PSI range.

Which are...? What's their source for that info? Has anyone verified it?

Quote:

NO increase in EGT’s and that gauges (specifically a pyro) is not required

Kinda hard to prove if you don't install an egt gage, right?

Quote:

the fuel mix would make more power with less throttle

Makes no sense.

What these modules are doing is very simple. So simple that the vendors' websites have to make pretty outrageous claims to get people to shell out $400-$600 for something that simply offsets rail pressure, and sometimes boost pressure. Didn't someone say that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it? You'll get power from them. No doubt. But the extra claims they tack on to give you a warm fuzzy feeling are mostly false.

They count on no one doing back to back, controlled tests that might prove them wrong. Like dyno runs, careful mpg studies, EGT gages, aux rail pressure gages, and the fact that Bosch won't release the factory specs. It claims 15% fuel savings, but mpg improvement is almost IMPOSSIBLE to prove oustide a laboratory, given how many variables there are, like driving habits, avg speed, tire pressure, fuel quality, ambient temp and a host of others. But the placebo effect is so strong that many people will run a few tanks, say "yeah, I got +2mpg from the chip!" and leave it at that. Like Fox Mulder, they WANT to believe. In reality, they have so little data that nothing could be proven one way or the other.

In short, I would stay away from this chip. If you want a plug-in module, get the Edge one, its claims are conservative (IOW, believable).

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:47 pm

CATCRD wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

In addition, the module does not circumvent factory fuel delivery (over fuel) and is a very easy on and off application. The module raises the fuel rail pressure to create a microscopic fuel plume with better fuel/air ratio to the injectors allowing more efficient combustion to take place in each cylinder. In other words, the fuel plume is more enriched with oxygen than the factory fuel delivery because it requires less fuel at a higher injector pressure for combustion. More oxygen molecules (density) creates a better combustion efficiency. The module stays within the factory specifications for maximum injector PSI range. The product advertises that there is NO increase in EGT’s and that gauges (specifically a pyro) is not required. I believe that this is possible as the fuel mix would make more power with less throttle which would mean less fuel burned resulting with lower EGT’s that naturally provokes better fuel mileage.

There are a lot of statements in there that contradict each other, and a lot of just plain nonsense, that sounds scientific, but is false, not proveable, or not possible.

First it says it doesn't circumvent factory fueling, then it says it enriches the mixture. Which is it?

Quote:

the fuel plume is more enriched with oxygen than the factory fuel delivery because it requires less fuel at a higher injector pressure for combustion.

This statement makes no sense.

Quote:

The module stays within the factory specifications for maximum injector PSI range.

Which are...? What's their source for that info? Has anyone verified it?

Quote:

NO increase in EGT’s and that gauges (specifically a pyro) is not required

Kinda hard to prove if you don't install an egt gage, right?

Quote:

the fuel mix would make more power with less throttle

Makes no sense.

What these modules are doing is very simple. So simple that the vendors' websites have to make pretty outrageous claims to get people to shell out $400-$600 for something that simply offsets rail pressure, and sometimes boost pressure. Didn't someone say that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it? You'll get power from them. No doubt. But the extra claims they tack on to give you a warm fuzzy feeling are mostly false.

They count on no one doing back to back, controlled tests that might prove them wrong. Like dyno runs, careful mpg studies, EGT gages, aux rail pressure gages, and the fact that Bosch won't release the factory specs. It claims 15% fuel savings, but mpg improvement is almost IMPOSSIBLE to prove oustide a laboratory, given how many variables there are, like driving habits, avg speed, tire pressure, fuel quality, ambient temp and a host of others. But the placebo effect is so strong that many people will run a few tanks, say "yeah, I got +2mpg from the chip!" and leave it at that. Like Fox Mulder, they WANT to believe. In reality, they have so little data that nothing could be proven one way or the other.

In short, I would stay away from this chip. If you want a plug-in module, get the Edge one, its claims are conservative (IOW, believable).

Thanks for the post. I have the Workhorse for my Cummins and it does add power. I'm just scared that I will blow my injectors or something. I'm debating if I should continue running the workhorse. I‘ve had it for the past year (20,000 miles) and it seems to work just fine. I can say that the Workhorse does add a very noticeable power increase. Everyone that I know who has actual experience with the module say’s that it does what the manufacturer claims. The company even gives you a free 30 day risk free trial. On the Cummins forum two guys tried it out and they all reported more power and a mpg increase by hand calculations. I’m not saying that it’s the best product on the market, but I do have to admit it does increase power.
You admitted that it does increase power so, in you opinion, how does the module increase power and do you think it is a safe product?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:07 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

The module raises the fuel rail pressure .

Quote:

You admitted that it does increase power so, in you opinion, how does the module increase power and do you think it is a safe product?

you raise the fuel pressure - easiest simpliest way - put a resistor in the sensor line - - it always reads low - so the ECU increases pump pressure - the injector opens the valve - higher pressure sprays more fuel - makes more power.
how high? - a company that has real R&D with metrology can tell you - a small shop probably doesn't even know how to measure it.
long term reliability??? - you are the test vehicle - let us know in 100,000 miles.

Although as gmctd was pointing out a good company can also take the sensor signal - and monitor it and through a little logic - feed it to the ECU so that it's a nonlinear and limit the overpressure - the problem is that since no one gives you data - you're banking on the companies reputation - I think Edge has the advantage here.
(Edge has the edge)

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:28 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

The module raises the fuel rail pressure .

Quote:

You admitted that it does increase power so, in you opinion, how does the module increase power and do you think it is a safe product?

you raise the fuel pressure - easiest simpliest way - put a resistor in the sensor line - - it always reads low - so the ECU increases pump pressure - the injector opens the valve - higher pressure sprays more fuel - makes more power.
how high? - a company that has real R&D with metrology can tell you - a small shop probably doesn't even know how to measure it.
long term reliability??? - you are the test vehicle - let us know in 100,000 miles.

Although as gmctd was pointing out a good company can also take the sensor signal - and monitor it and through a little logic - feed it to the ECU so that it's a nonlinear and limit the overpressure - the problem is that since no one gives you data - you're banking on the companies reputation - I think Edge has the advantage here.
(Edge has the edge)

So either the Edge or the Smarty for my Cummins. Thanks for the information!

CATCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:40 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

You admitted that it does increase power so, in you opinion, how does the module increase power and do you think it is a safe product?

Like ATXKJ and others wrote, it increases fuel pressure, sometimes above factory limit of 23kpsi, to increase the quantity of fuel delivered. I think it's a reasonably safe module if you don't abuse the new found power. It's all about duty cycle. Higher duty cycle = shorter life, on average. Like ATXKJ wrote, you are the test mule, like I am for the Inmotion tune.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:46 pm

Since we are talking about the sky is falling read this.

http://www.vitabeat.com/diesel-fumes-af ... r/v/8099/#

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:58 pm

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

Since we are talking about the sky is falling read this.

http://www.vitabeat.com/diesel-fumes-af ... r/v/8099/#

Isn't that some people how people end their misery :shock:

Sitting in a room with a car running :cry:

I think they should do the same study using gasoline cars too. It's just more diesel bashing. I wonder where in California the study was done :?:

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

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