CRD #1 fixed, CRD #2 dead on the side of the road

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:01 am

You can check Wally World - I actually found a clear plastic Fram fuel filter with 3/8" hose fittings for 2 or 3 bucks. Ranger1 and I think a couple others have made use of these, plumbed in ahead of the main filter, in times past. Matter of fact, I actually picked up one of those Fram filters and still have it laying around someplace, just never got around to using it.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:21 am

I had the same problem with my Cummins truck on Friday which does have a lift pump on the side of the fuel filter housing. With the winds we had and ambients below zero, the wind chill was about -30F. It started for and ran for a few minutes, then died, then wouldn't restart. Then it'd sputter, run for a min, die again. Guessing that something was in the lines between the tank and the filter where the heater is, I just used a small butane unit I solder/heat shrink with and thawed the lines some. Then the sun came out for an hour and I was running again.

Get it in the garage for a day to warm up, then re-evaluate the situation. I'm guessing you really don't need that lift pump.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:06 am

MrMopar64 wrote:

......... I just used a small butane unit I solder/heat shrink with and thawed the lines some. Then the sun came out for an hour and I was running again.

Ain't diesel great? It may clog up easier, but at least you can take a torch to it without blowing yer arse off.

MrMopar64 wrote:

Get it in the garage for a day to warm up, then re-evaluate the situation. I'm guessing you really don't need that lift pump.

I would LOVE to have a garage. I can only imagine what it must be like working on these blasted, ever-needing-repair vehicles without rain or sleet running down my back or freezing my hands to the engine block. If ever I am re-employed, I shall build one. It has been high on the list for quite a few years.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Get it in the garage for a day to warm up, then re-evaluate the situation. I'm guessing you really don't need that lift pump.

If MrMopar's lift pump could not move gelled/frozen water laden fuel through his fuel lines and filter, then how did KeighJ's do it? Not to mention that he's using a non positive displacement pump. Here's a thought, maybe it wasn't gelled or frozen water causing the fuel starvation issue? Either that or he has a lift pump that can move Kairo syrup and ice with one hand tied behind its back.

Yes, I see the light of logic dawning upon the situation. Better forget the lift pump and use anti-gel/heat to overcome those air locks/vacuum leaks. Maybe that's called thinking outside the box [of common sense].

Now if that doesn't work, next time this happens, plan B is to just push CRD#2 up that steep hill with those bionic arms of his, warm it up in his yet to be built garage and everything will be just fine - as long as you hit the wire at precisely 88 miles per hour at the precise instant the lightening bolt strikes the clock tower. :-)r

vegiH · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:17 am

"Marty,now don't forget to waiit until the flux Capisitor is fully charged before you reach 88MPH."Ok doc....................

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

vegiH wrote:

"Marty,now don't forget to waiit until the flux Capisitor is fully charged before you reach 88MPH."Ok doc....................

"What was I thinking? I almost forgot to take extra plutonium!! One pellet, one trip!!!"

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:40 am

A significant thing to note, here, is Mr Mopar's Dodge has a pusher-type lift pump, intended to be at\near the fuel supply source, oem remotely-mounted on the fuel manager head up on the side of the Cummins engine - those pumps are not intended for 'draw' service, so naturally it wouldn't draw slightly-gelled fuel - that remote-mounted location, higher above and even further away from fuel tank level than our filter-head, is also noted for burning brushes\commutators in the hermetically-sealed pump due to lack of fuel resulting from gravity-aided drain-back - Dodge rectumfied that system in '05 with our beloved in-tank lift-pump module (praise be to allah!) - DCJ sells an upgrade kit to convert the '03-'04 systems

A pusher-type pump can handle gelled fuel better than a 'draw' type - if it's good enuff for their CP3, it's good enuff for ours, eh

At any rate, a 'nuther method of quick-thawing gelled fuel lines is a 150w floodlight bulb in a parabolic-reflector type drop light - also a self-contained (plastic housing to prevent burns) 12v quartz\halogen driving light with extension wires and cig lighter connector or battery clamps - highly concentrated therms is the force, warm fuel is the goal - may the force be with you......................

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:07 pm

gmctd wrote:

Dodge rectumfied that system in '05 with our beloved in-tank lift-pump module (praise be to allah!) - DCJ sells an upgrade kit to convert the '03-'04 systems

3 years ago my friends south of Austin were leasing an '04 Cummins Quad Cab. When the filter-mounted lift pump gave up the ghost, DCJ wanted them to pay the cost of fixing/upgrading. But the dealer contacted Cummins, Cummins stepped up to the plate and covered the entire job under their engine warranty. Food for thought for those with an unmodified 03/04 - not saying that's still the case, but worth checking into if the need arises.

For an item that many still swear has no useful function or benefits, the aftermarket companies are making a pretty good living selling different varieties of lift pumps.

I've heard an antecdotal story (not verified) that DCJ wanted to sell Cummins pickups sans lift pump, because of the gear pump incorporated in the CP3. And that Cummins basically told them "no lift pump, no engines - we're not risking our reputation for your penny pinching".

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:25 pm

Correct - that lift pump upgrade became warranty replacement for those vehicles still in warranty, or an expensive kit + exorbitant labor costs for those not - the kit comes with TSB instructions

The Dodges do not function as well as the KJ's if using only the CP3 lift pump because of the increased distance from the fuel tank - that's too much 'draw', or lift, pumps being rated for lift and head capability - pusher-type pumps are low lift, high head - draw-type pumps are high lift, low or\and high head - also rated is priming capability, whether self-priming or manual primed - that also determines physical position below or above liquid level, and distance from liquid source

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

A pusher-type pump can handle gelled fuel better than a 'draw' type - if it's good enuff for their CP3, it's good enuff for ours, eh

Exactly, but this underlying logic infers that an auxiliary lift pump will keep fuel running in marginal cold slushy fuel conditions on our CRD's under the same conditions where the vacuum system can and does fail. I run a Kennedy lp in a draw arrangement(long story) engine bay mounted configuration, through a 2 um Racor filter, with B20 in the tank. This configuration has been tested in temps down to 12*F without antigel and down to 0*F with antigel, without a single non start or stalling issue. Filter output pressure ranges from 2.5 psi at 10*F cold start to 4.5psi at 60*F, at engine idle. This test is over 2 winters in an 18 month period, in elevations from 300' to well over 6100' (spare filter and tools on board for sure).

But if his fuel had seriously gelled or frozen with water, which is what the original thought offered, it wouldn't have run for long with his lift pump in either a push or draw arrangement feeding his filter head. If marginal fuel viscosity rise caused KJ's stalling, then the lift pump proved it's usefulness. If an air lock/filter vacuum lock, ditto. Either way, I see no data supporting a hard freeze or a bad gel situation. The original logic offered just falls apart no matter how you examine it.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:54 pm

Also - if both of his CRD's are fueled from the same source, both outside exposed to the weather - why would one be down with frozen/gelled fuel, yet the other still running?

A centrifugal pump supplies volume and simply dead heads, all flow stopped, at a certain pressure and can't supply pressure past that point. If the fuel were gelled or frozen, no way that a Kennedy pump would be able to overcome that.

The fact that the check valve/primer pump in the factory fuel head is inoperable, having had first-hand experience with that same scenario, the problem occurred after he had replaced the filter and tried to reprime the system, and that he was able to drive the vehicle home and idle it for an extended period on it's own fuel supply after repriming it from his second vehicle, tells me this isn't a problem with frozen/gelled fuel - it's a mechanical problem with the fuel filter head.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:28 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Also - if both of his CRD's are fueled from the same source, both outside exposed to the weather - why would one be down with frozen/gelled fuel, yet the other still running?
A centrifugal pump supplies volume and simply dead heads, all flow stopped, at a certain pressure and can't supply pressure past that point. If the fuel were gelled or frozen, no way that a Kennedy pump would be able to overcome that.
The fact that the check valve/primer pump in the factory fuel head is inoperable, having had first-hand experience with that same scenario, the problem occurred after he had replaced the filter and tried to reprime the system, and that he was able to drive the vehicle home and idle it for an extended period on it's own fuel supply after repriming it from his second vehicle, tells me this isn't a problem with frozen/gelled fuel - it's a mechanical problem with the fuel filter head.

Gelling definitely wasn't the problem. CRDs 1&2 ran fine through our 10 deg weather last month - no shelter - using B20. (although I do use anti gel and engine block heaters) I have no access to BD for the past several weeks and have been using straight-up dino diesel from several different local stations. In addition, it is warmed up significantly so it really shouldn't be gelling.

My wife's stalling originally happened with a warm car on her way to get my son when we were broken down in CRD#1. It was only about 25 deg. When I test drove hers it acted like a clogged fuel filter: It would run slowly but if you punched it, it would die. So, I changed the fuel filter and thus started a chain of unfortunate events resulting in my "fuel jump start" to get it home. I think we most likely got lousy fuel from stations compromised by the various severe weather events the worst of which was massive lowland flooding. As retmil46 mentioned the fuel manager is funky. The check valve is not working in it even though I have cleaned thoroughly and the primer just isn't priming. Perhaps there is something still in there causing problems but if it still isn't working after 10 minutes of vigorous flushing, I think it is messed up. A lift pump on #2 should negate this issue. (hopefully :roll:

)

I have got it running again and it doesn't appear to be hesitating anymore, but DW and toddler son will be in CRD#1 for a while as CRD#2 works to earn back my trust. I might have to find a patch of rough terrain to bounce around on for a while. Perhaps a bonding experience is needed. (as long as I'm within cell phone and tow truck range)

I'm going to put a small pre-filter on them both so I can actually see what nasties are flowing through the system.

BTW: I did finally fix the 4wd shifter. It was actually a bent handle. It still isn't right, but luckily she has access to full time awd and rarely has any use for low gear so I'll leave it be for now.

Thing One (left) and Thing Two sitting in the garage last month:

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:36 pm

I would caution against the prefilter on the non-lift pump system
The probability of leaks in a vacuum system is very high.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:40 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

I would caution against the prefilter on the non-lift pump system
The probability of leaks in a vacuum system is very high.

Good point!

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:43 pm

Good input, Ranger1, but slight contention: the operative phrase is 'can handle gelled fuel better than, etc', not 'will pump solidly-gelled fuel', which only a high-powered gear-type pump submerged in the fuel could move - a remote-mounted lift pump in draw-type service does not fare as well as those mounted at\in the fuel supply - as you know, while #1 winter fuel is anti-gel protected down to -40*F, Diesel fuel in winter climes also has higher H2O content, concentration dependent on geographical location as well as fuel station sales-volume and flood-plane location - the German lift pump sold by KD employs a magnetically-driven impeller, not even known for positive displacement capabilities - that, in itself, would seem to indicate that the pumped fuel was not dramatically gelled, where the CP3 lift pump may have done as well minus the aux lift pump - another consideration is pre-filter vs post-filter - as the filter has resistance to flow, physical location of the filter in the supply scheme will determine pumping efficiency in draw systems as well as pusher systems, but more detrimental to flow in draw-type systems - filter is pre-CP3 lift pump - draw-type pumps function off Baro (-) draw in vacuum - pusher-types in pusher-service function on Baro (+) pumped pressure - pushers move the fuel thru filters easier than drawers - even engine-operated diaphragm-type pumps, best known for self-priming at long distances from the supply point, don't function as well in post-filter service

I had thought about posting all that stuff in defense of stated position, but I'll skip it, just shortening it to state:

IMO, to accurately compare functionality of the one Dodge and two KJ systems in question would require fuel analysis at the indicated time referenced for comparison - we have little occasion for gelled fuel down here below the 'don't snow much down here' line, tho we do get similar winter-contaminated fuel - water-contaminates freeze where wax-gelling protection has been added - because of that, the three systems would need to be compared while sitting on the incline next to Keighjeigh's Jeep, having also fueled up from the same source

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it........................

Hmm......musta been composin' while others were postin'

p.s.

Looks like yer roof might have a small leak, kj

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

Get it in the garage for a day to warm up, then re-evaluate the situation. I'm guessing you really don't need that lift pump.

If MrMopar's lift pump could not move gelled/frozen water laden fuel through his fuel lines and filter, then how did KeighJ's do it? Not to mention that he's using a non positive displacement pump. Here's a thought, maybe it wasn't gelled or frozen water causing the fuel starvation issue? Either that or he has a lift pump that can move Kairo syrup and ice with one hand tied behind its back.

Yes, I see the light of logic dawning upon the situation. Better forget the lift pump and use anti-gel/heat to overcome those air locks/vacuum leaks. Maybe that's called thinking outside the box [of common sense].

Now if that doesn't work, next time this happens, plan B is to just push CRD#2 up that steep hill with those bionic arms of his, warm it up in his yet to be built garage and everything will be just fine - as long as you hit the wire at precisely 88 miles per hour at the precise instant the lightening bolt strikes the clock tower. :-)r

Ahh, another victim of Ranger's supreme intellect. Let's just dog on Mr Mopar until he doesnt post here anymore. I know what is next (because I too have been a victim of it) you are going to say he is a clown, he entertains you, he makes you laugh with his rediculous ideas.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

And what have you offered in the way of analysis? Please enlighten/entertain us all.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

Ranger1 wrote:

And what have you offered in the way of analysis? Please enlighten/entertain us all.

OK, Here it goes... I put diesel in it straight from the pump, NO additives. My CRD runs and starts down to -15F (not windchill) with no lift pump. I know you are plenty more knowledgable about these things than I am-It's not my area of expertise. It just rubs me the wrong way the way you disagree with people. That's all.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

Ranger1 wrote:

And what have you offered in the way of analysis? Please enlighten/entertain us all.

There is the "entertain" word I predicted. You can't help yourself.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:19 pm

Remember, windchill does not affect inanimate objects: -15* with -40* windchill is still only -15* to yer KJ - you, on the other hand, should prolly seek shelter..................

CRD #1 fixed, CRD #2 dead on the side of the road

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