Stock Exhaust Gas Temperature

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I found a pyrometer/boost gauge combo from Westach at this link:

http://www.genosgarage.com/CoastalData/ ... 95&CATID=2

It's 1/8 npt and available complete for $199 at a Ford/Dodge Diesel online site (Genos). Nothing specific for the Liberty there yet. I'm thinking the thermocouple and wiring might be reusable even with a tuner setup. Might be a good question for Bullydog and others with egt/boost inputs. Westach lists the thermocouple type and model number in their catalog.

Inquiring minds want to know the temps on their own stock CRD!

FarmDiesel · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:49 am **Posts:** 132

My thoughts on this...

1. WHEN/IF someone develops a module for the CRD, I would love to see an 'off-road use only' mode that disabled the EGR...to lower EGT and to decrease the amount of crap being forced back into the engine.

2. I looked long and hard at the pyro install...and ended up going in the downpipe immediately after the turbo, right at the 90 degree bend. During normal highway cruise, it runs between 700-800 degrees, depending on outside temps. I just couldn't find a pre-turbo location that I was happy with. A friend of mine with a pre-turbo pyro has temps that are about exactly 100 degrees higher than mine under similar conditions...so far, mine seems to be very accurate, but off by around 100 degrees, pre-turbo. So instead of backing out at 1250, I'd start backing out at 1100 or so.

3. I'm also considering the muffler-delete option...anyone got a soundclip of a CRD sans muffler? I'm guessing with the big cat, it can't be that loud!

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:11 am

On diesels the turbo works like a muffler (a is/was a legal muffler couple years ago) and any diesel will easly pass noise dba limits. I would think the CRD would be rather quite and with a deep flat note to the exhaust. On the little 1.9 VW TDI's the exhust had a rather sporty sound, where I would guess the CRD will almost 3 liters from a 4 cyl would have a deep flat sound but not loud even when full throttled. I will be taking in the wife's CRD next week for a muffflerectomy and will probably put a steel pack straight through muffler on to eleminate any posssiable drone at highway speeds.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:00 pm

FarmDiesel wrote:

2. I looked long and hard at the pyro install...and ended up going in the downpipe immediately after the turbo, right at the 90 degree bend. During normal highway cruise, it runs between 700-800 degrees, depending on outside temps. I just couldn't find a pre-turbo location that I was happy with. A friend of mine with a pre-turbo pyro has temps that are about exactly 100 degrees higher than mine under similar conditions...so far, mine seems to be very accurate, but off by around 100 degrees, pre-turbo. So instead of backing out at 1250, I'd start backing out at 1100 or so.

Are you saying that you and your friend both have CRD's, and both of you have EGT gauges installed? If so, excellent!

I sort of wonder about the 100 degree difference though. Everything I've read on installing pyros, the general rule of thumb has been add 300 degrees to a post-turbo setup to get the temp inside the exhaust manifold, ie what you would get with a pre-turbo setup. 300 degrees added to your readings would be right in line with what TST is telling us.

If both of you have CRD's are there any differences or mods between the two vehicles that would affect the reading? Such as, he has a tow package with the heavy duty engine cooling setup and you don't, any other aftermarket mods? Are the two gauges the same or different manufacturers? Where in the exhaust manifold does your friend have his probe installed, this can affect readings as well.

Just trying to find out more, so we can compare apples to apples here. If the two vehicles are exactly the same, perhaps the 300 degree rule doesn't apply in full to engines with EGR's and variable vane turbos.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:32 am

Hmmm, I think I've found a setup that may solve where to mount the gauges.

http://www.dieselperformance.com has the BD X-Monitor, same as http://www.genosgarage.com, but have a new version that has a small monitor that can be mounted on the steering column, low and flat. They also have versions that only do two readouts, EGT and Boost, if you don't feel the need to monitor Transmission temp.

As far as my concern about 1/4" NPT thermocouples versus 1/8" NPT, I feel like an idiot. As an old mechanic, I should have remembered something called a pipe bushing. :oops:

FarmDiesel · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:49 am **Posts:** 132

Yes, I know another CRD owner with a pre-turbo pyro, and I have a post-turbo pyro (immediately after the turbo, just before the 90 degree downturn).

Under roughly identical conditions, the temps are about 100 degrees apart. Under highway cruising, my temps are usually between 700-800 degrees. His are between 800-900. Full throttle, loaded, uphill, warm weather conditions may result in EGTs reaching 1000-1050 for me, and 1100-1200 for him, for brief periods before the jeep shifts, etc. As for the range in temps, it is more dependent on ambient air temps than anything. Changing exterior temps from 80 to 20 drops my EGTs on the highway by as much as 40-50 degrees...and the same for him.

FarmDiesel · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:49 am **Posts:** 132

Oh, and both are pretty similarly equipped...both CRD sports, with similar options.

FWIW, I don't think there are different cooling options available on CRDs. I believe all have the same clutch driven fan/radiator/electric fan setup, same shroud, same coolers, etc. I know the options listed heavy duty cooling for the tow package for a while, but I'm pretty sure all diesels are the same.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:08 pm

FarmDiesel wrote:

Yes, I know another CRD owner with a pre-turbo pyro, and I have a post-turbo pyro (immediately after the turbo, just before the 90 degree downturn).

Under roughly identical conditions, the temps are about 100 degrees apart. Under highway cruising, my temps are usually between 700-800 degrees. His are between 800-900. Full throttle, loaded, uphill, warm weather conditions may result in EGTs reaching 1000-1050 for me, and 1100-1200 for him, for brief periods before the jeep shifts, etc. As for the range in temps, it is more dependent on ambient air temps than anything. Changing exterior temps from 80 to 20 drops my EGTs on the highway by as much as 40-50 degrees...and the same for him.

Thanks, now that we have some data, I'll go ahead and get the AT muffler installed, and when the BD X-Monitor comes in, we'll see what this beast does with a straight-thru muffler.

Talking with BD Power yesterday, I mentioned the TST info on EGT's. He said they were testing a CRD with a beta Edge module on it, and they weren't running as hot stock as what TST claimed. Guy said that must be with their module installed, said that TST modules tended to run hot by dumping in more fuel.

BTW, what type of EGT gauge are you running, and where did you mount the gauge?

FarmDiesel · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:49 am **Posts:** 132

The pyro is an Autometer.

At present, it is mounted on top of the dash in a housing I'm not entirely happy with. I'm waiting for an A-pillar mount that I like, or a module with a display to replace the pyro with.

Keep us posted on developments!

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:32 pm

Called up the regional warehouse in Hickory NC about an hour ago, the muffler is on it's way. Ended up getting a 20% discount on it, because the guy is looking for a new dealer in our town, and if the shop that I'm having install it likes the looks and the way it performs, he wants to set them up as one of his dealers in the area.

Remember i said one guy went out of his way telling me how this muffler would screw up my engine, and tried to sell me a Flowmaster? That guy was one of the people that worked at his current dealer in my town! The other people that worked at the same shop wondered aloud why he was badmouthing AT, said they put them on every diesel truck that came in.

When i called the main warehouse in Hickory to try and clear up the confusion, and told the gentleman there what had happened, he asked me straight out if there was another performance shop in town that would be willing to be his NEW dealer!

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:41 pm

Let us know if the muffler alone without a resonator has the dreaded drone at steady rpm's. I talked with local shop about doing a straight through glass pack knowing the turbo would burn it out fairly quickly and and his comment was at least it would pass inspection. He did comment about the drone and that I would probably want a small straight through glass pack at the back end near the tip. So I have decided to wait till I hear a report from you two guys.

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:59 pm

Mitchell,

Which AT muffler did you go with? The 2525? The website lists it for gas engines though Idk if it matters. I'm very interested in improved throttle response/turbo spool-up - That's the main complaint from the wife compared to her WRX. Of course part of it is auto vs manual but she complains that there's a delay when she stomps on it.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:08 am

grywlfbg wrote:

Mitchell,

Which AT muffler did you go with? The 2525? The website lists it for gas engines though Idk if it matters. I'm very interested in improved throttle response/turbo spool-up - That's the main complaint from the wife compared to her WRX. Of course part of it is auto vs manual but she complains that there's a delay when she stomps on it.

Yes, went with the 2525. I called their main office in Utah to verify that it would work with the diesel, and inquire whether or not sizing up to a 3" aft of the cat would have any benefits. Matter of fact, the guy running the regional warehouse in Hickory NC insisted I call the main office, to verify I was getting the right one, since he hadn't sold one for this model vehicle before.

According to the tech rep at their Utah office, the only possible benefit from going with a 3" would be some possible further reduction in EGT's, but nothing really as far as performance or fuel economy.

There's a gent on the yahoo groups diesel liberty list that installed one of these. He got back to me and verified that he installed a 2525 without a resonator. He reported there was hardly any discernable difference in sound, that his wife couldn't even tell he'd swapped out mufflers. Hey, if it can win the spouse approval rating........ :lol:

He also reported that with the AT , before any other mods, his fuel mileage increased by 2 MPG by overhead computer. Since he didn't have any electronic performance doodads installed at the time, that could have affected the readout, I'd be willing to lend some credence to this.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:48 am

Better watch out shipmate, you're starting to sound like a pretty convincing salesman. :shock:

You know what we all think of those people. :twisted:

How soon do you think you will have yours on and be able to get back to us with noise report? :?:

breakerbacker · **Joined:** Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:23 pm **Posts:** 76

Retmil,

With the AT installed, did you notice in drop in turbo lag? How about any additional power? Lower EGT's are a nice benefit also.

Did you install the unit yourself or take it to a local muffler shop for install? It sounds like a quality unit, but having to pay for install makes it even more expensive.

Greg

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:54 pm

oldnavy wrote:

Better watch out shipmate, you're starting to sound like a pretty convincing salesman. :shock:

You know what we all think of those people. :twisted:

How soon do you think you will have yours on and be able to get back to us with noise report? :?:

Hopefully, should have it tomorrow. Hickory is only about an hour away. Could have been here today, but what with this ice storm, I didn't really expect it. That's providing he had one in stock and didn't have to ship it from Utah. Would like to have it on by the end of next week, that way I can give it a good field test driving to Texas and back.

I seriously considered going with a 3030 anyway, for that much extra reduction in EGT's for any honking performance mods that I might put on later, and also to have a big 3" pipe sticking out the back to impress the natives.

But for the sake of ease of installation, and verifying that these mufflers do actually perform as advertised, I decided to keep everything stock except for the muffler. We're still learning what's going on with these machines, so for the time being decided to keep the mods to a minimum. Also, the dealer might get a little freaked warranty-wise if they see a heavily modified exhaust system, whereas a new muffler by itself shouldn't raise any eyebrows.

Trying not to sound like a salesman, but the gentleman at the regional office really went out of his way to make sure i was a satisfied customer, especially after I told him about the shuffle-and-dance the guy that was supposed to be one of his dealers gave me. A 20% discount on a $190 muffler is pretty hefty, wants me to call him back with a report on how it performs, and backed the idea of installing an EGT gauge to see how much it reduced temps. The man seems confident he has a good product and is willing to back it up. I'll at least give him marks for that.

Well, to open another can of worms, does anyone think it would be worthwhile adding insulation around the turbo housing, and the exhaust pipe from the turbo to the flex coupling or further back to the cat?

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:36 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Well, to open another can of worms, does anyone think it would be worthwhile adding insulation around the turbo housing, and the exhaust pipe from the turbo to the flex coupling or further back to the cat?

Well, not sure if this is relevant but I'm a big fan of exhaust wrap on my motorcycles. It made a huge difference on my VFR. It's a V4 with 2 headers each out the front and back into a resonator and then out into a single pipe. I wrapped all the headers down to the resonator and noticed a discernable drop in engine temps (needle would hold in a different spot) and less heat being dumped onto my legs in traffic.

However, on my race bike (an inline 4) the typical use for exhaust wrap is to INCREASE EGT's to get better scavenging and thereby more airflow. Obivously this is for non-turbo engines.

So my feeling would be you would not want to insulate the turbo as this will only increase temps inside the turbo housing and if we're worried about temp-related turbo failures that's a bad thing.

I don't think wrapping from after the turbo to the back would hurt but I don't know if it would gain you anything aside from the mysterious "faster turbo spool-up". In catalyst-equipped cars it would cause the cats to run hotter and thereby more efficiently as more heat is contained in the exhaust by the wrap.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:19 am

Guess what came this afternoon while I was at work?

Here's an image of the install the gent on the yahoo group did.

It has install instructions with it, and it states that for best performance and fuel economy to install with 12" of straight pipe ahead of and after the muffler. Looking at this other gent's install, he has it slid all the way back to where the exhaust pipe makes the bend to go up and over the axle, with straight pipe in front of it taking up the space that was occupied by the stock muffler.

Hmmm, I'm wondering, is this what the tech guys recommended, if you can't get 12" at both ends, put as much as you can at the front? Or did the muffler shop he went to just go for the easiest install? Guess I'll have to make another phone call in the morning.

If the cat could be disregarded and counted as part of the more or less straight pipe running back to that flange, seems like it would be better to slide the AT as close as possible to that flange to get some straight pipe after it as well.

Looking up underneath the rear tonight, looks like the tailpipe after the axle could be straightened somewhat as well, possibly replacing 2 90 degree bends with 2 45 degree bends, but I'll leave that to the install shop to make the call on whether that's possible.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:21 am

Dang, should have put that image as a url.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/diesel-liberty/vwp?.dir=/CDR+Jungle+Jim&.src=gr&.dnm=Aero+Turbine+Muffler.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/diesel-liberty/lst%3f%26.dir=/CDR%2bJungle%2bJim%26.src=gr%26.view=t

Sorry about that, hope it works better this time.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:12 am

I enlarged and printed off the pic of the other guy's install. Having the actual muffler to measure and scale the picture against, if you count the inlet and outlet connectors as straight pipe, he has 13.5" of straight pipe before the muffler, up to the flange, 16.5" if you count the flange and the bit of straight pipe on the other side of it you can see. On the outlet side, he has only 4", basically just the outlet connection.

That would be 20.5" total of straight pipe. If you moved the muffler 6" forward, you would end up with roughly 10" of straight pipe on both ends. Might be able to go forward another couple of inches, depending on how the section running back to the cat is configured. Even if it's not perfectly straight, it's a lot better than that 90 degree bend at the rear.

Stock Exhaust Gas Temperature

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