Well, they say liberty comes at a price.

So sure, no problem, and I get to dictate how many gallons of fuel you consume and therefore how far you drive the Liberty or other diesel powered vehicle. Or you could just employ your freedom and do whatever the heck you want. Or, you and warp2diesel could really stick it to the government and just not drive. That'll teach 'em.

I don't want to pay more for fuel either, but at least they're not considering something like a $2 or $3 per gallon tax hike. I don't like how money gets wasted by the government any more than anyone else. At this point, I don't have time to gripe at my senators or representatives and don't really have any interest in trying politics myself. Perhaps it's a path some of you could be interested in and change things for the better.

Another possibility, if you are unhappy with taxes, is to employ the method I saw in the Will Ferrell movie (Stranger Than Fiction) that I watched last night. One of the main characters purposely paid only 78% of the income taxes she owed because she disagreed with how the government spent the other 22% of it. She even went as far to write them a letter and explain her position. She got audited, but hey you can take you chances and give it a try.

As far as social engineering, I can't say I'd advocate it, but when fuel prices were high due to "free market" conditions last summer, people in cities with mass transit used it diligently, and remained doing so even after prices came off their highs. I haven't read whether that's still the case with fuel prices "so low" now, but it would be interesting if that was the case. There are some cases were people will adopt different habits with a sufficient push.

Wobbly, you've hit it DIRECTLY on the head. Pissing away (without even being honest enough to list it in the BUDGETS) 700 MILLION every single week for 6 years... Yea. Hmm, let's do some fun math!

52 weeks in a year.
6 years.
312 weeks currently burned on this fool's folly.
700,000,000 per week.
218,400,000,000 TOTAL pissed away.

For those viewers following along at home, YES, Ladies and Gentlemen... That is 218 BILLION DOLLARS.

Buying up Lehmann and giving back all of the money that Madoff stole (IF they were going to do that, which isn't ever gonna happen) now seems like a pretty good bargain, huh?

A better bargain, IF you are the ones being bought: Citigroup - Has had 45 BILLION poured into it from our wallets in the last couple of months. The US Gov't is now "negotiating" with them to convert some of that into a 35% voting stake in the wreckage of that company. It is now valued by the market at a whopping... 5.5 billion. How is it that we have paid 8 times the going rate, and only own 35%? Where'd all that money go?

How about... Into the "market" to buy up all the shares that the SMART people were selling out of? The US Taxpayer is being asked to directly transfer their tax money RIGHT TO the rich people that are selling off their stakes in the markets. Nobody who holds stock has lost any value UNTIL they sell that stock. Up until that point, it is just potential losses. But with the price dropping, everyone wants out, and these bankrupting companies are BEING DRIVEN DOWN by the biggest shareholders asking for their money back...NOW.

And we the taxpayer WILL be suffering for it. I'll take a 15 cent diesel fuel tax FOR ROADS any day, over a bailout that is mostly going to line the pockets of those that need it the least. You bought into that company, you took the risk that the stock might not go up if the management was bad. Tough crap. Take it out on the board driving that company.

Bailouts? No more!

What was your reaction then to the prices over the summer and autumn last year?

The point was not on supply but on reserves. Those reserves only get smaller, and we will run out of oil in our lifetime. Not just the easily recoverable reserves, but all of them. I got about 50 years left, and I don't expect to be able to buy an oil powered car when I go on retirement in 35.

Go watch this if you want to have a little insight on what growth means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

_________________
L.O.S.T forever!
Silver 2002 Skoda Fabia TDI, 235,000km
Former car: Jeep KJ 2003 CRD

DIESEL - saving millions of liters of petrol every day!

My frustration stems from the current government pushing for plug-in hybrids during a time when the economy is weak. At a time when the U.S. was about to launch a few new diesels, we get a new administration who is pushing forward with more strenuous emission laws and wanting to increase fuel taxes. Even as diesel engines become cleaner, it appears that our government is forcing manufactures to build electric. I wonder if Mahindra is still coming out with their hybrid diesel, or perhaps everyone is waiting to see what the current government is going to do. I’m just saying that auto manufacturers aren’t going to be manufacturing or selling diesel trucks and cars if the government is going to place higher taxes on those who use those types of fuel. President Obama believes we should tax the people who are using the fuel and who are contributing to green house emissions............meaning that the tax increase would primarily effect those who are consuming large amounts of fuel. And lastly, President Obama wants to use natural gas as a substitute for coal and use natural gas as an alternative to diesel fuel. By doing so, the cost of natural gas would be more costly as compared to #2 diesel. Obama didn’t come out and say it, but it almost sounded as though he was saying diesel fuel would receive much higher taxes than cleaner “alterative” types of fuel.

_________________
2015 Ram Ecodiesel/Big Horn/4x4/Quad Cab
2016 Arctic Fox 22G/Onboard 2500 LP Cummins Onan Generator/160 Watt Solar Panel

I took the road less traveled. Now I'm LOST.

Uffe, no disrespect, but I've been hearing the same line from the same groups for the past 40 years - problem is, they keep pushing the date back because they keep finding more oil.

If it was a certain fact that we'd run out of oil in 50 years, the oil industry could save themselves a fortune in the meantime by firing all their geologists and exploration teams and decommissioning all their drill rigs - it'd be a moot point looking for more if you already knew it'd all be gone.

Being on the other side of the pond, you might not fully grasp just how prevalent politics, special interest groups, lobbyists, greed, and corruption are when it comes to even discussing energy policy in this country. That's what is driving a lot of the angst in this particular thread, over what seems to be a minor tax increase on diesel fuel - over the past 3 decades, we've seen so much of out tax money wasted with little or no result - in some cases negative results - and still no comprehensive energy policy - and now our government is again asking for even more money under the worst possible economic conditions, while the current energy plan proposed seems to be nothing more than a continuation of the same old special interest game they've played for the past 30 years (the only difference being which special interests get our tax money) - well, perhaps you can begin to understand why some of us are up in arms over this.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

If you think a $.15 a gallon diesel tax increase is draconian, check out the Commision's report:
http://financecommission.dot.gov/Docume ... _Feb09.pdf

They recommend a vehicle mileage fee:

"VMT fee assesed on all miles driven, regardless of the system where they occur, would be
approximately 2.3¢ per mile for light-duty vehicles (LDVs) and 13.2¢ per mile for heavy trucks
(an average of 3.2¢ per mile for all vehicles)."

So where does the oil come from, if you think it is an infinite supply? (it is also energy stored by the sun but the proces of forming oil is extremely slow)

And do you think that the formation of oil in the underground will keep up with the demands we have today? 86 million barrels of oil.

_________________
L.O.S.T forever!
Silver 2002 Skoda Fabia TDI, 235,000km
Former car: Jeep KJ 2003 CRD

DIESEL - saving millions of liters of petrol every day!

HOLY OVERREACTION BATMAN!!!!!

Yea, let's take a trucker that HAS TO drive over 2000 miles per week (if not a lot more) and tell him that in addition to all the other ways he is crapped on by our government... He now has to pay an another $150+ PER WEEK just for doing his job.

While (of course) the stationary POWER PLANTS and FACTORIES (are there any left?) that can be producing the SAME LEVELS as a given two million vehicles (per plant!) aren't regulated or harassed in the slightest.
Corking off and filtering a SINGLE POWER PLANT to the level that the EPA is demanding of vehicles would have the SAME effect as PERMANENTLY removing 2 million cars from the roads. WITHOUT grossly effecting the powerplant's operations, since it is a large-scale stationary operation anyway. But NOOOOOOO, we can't even THINK about doing that. *rant*

Adding all this EPA bullsnot to a vehicle reduces it's economy and makes it burn MORE FUEL which makes MORE EMISSIONS no matter how you slice it. I'm not at all in favor of limiting the vehicles that people want to buy, but how about NOT limiting their engine choices to ONLY the least-efficient versions for a given platform? I'm talking (of course) about NOT using diesel engines in the larger SUV and cars, but instead putting a "hybrid" sticker onto a THREE TON SUV (Escalade) and claiming a whopping 1mpg increase (and LOTS of "green credits" from the EPA)

I think personally that not only does the entire government need a refresh, but the entire EPA should be launched into orbit with them.

"One of the popular myths about Peak Oil is that previous predictions about "oil running out" were supposedly wrong and therefore we should not pay attention to concerns about the depletion of concentrated fossil fuels. This fiction ignores the fact that the best estimates about Peak were extremely accurate -- in 1956, the geologist M. King Hubbert stated the United States would reach its peak of petroleum in 1970 and the world would peak in the 1990s. Hubbert's 1956 forecast was correct for the US, and would have been accurate for the world if the oil shocks of 1973 and 1979 had not forced conservation that temporarily reduced the growth of consumption. "

http://www.oilempire.us/peak-timeline.html

Which realistically means that the peak of production has probably already happened, or is VERY close to happening now. Yea, there will still be lots of oil around for a while, but considering how fast we are pumping it out of the ground... "Forever" for the supply isn't likely to be a very long time. Add to this that the Saudis haven't been very forthcoming about their own "spare capacity" in the last 10 years or so... And a picture starts to form. During the 90s, every time a mouse farted and the price of oil blipped, the Saudis were right there saying "we will boost our capacity to calm the market" and they did. Now? Not so much.

Possibly a combination between the higher daily output needed, and their own non-infinite supply... But I'd posit that they are on the ragged edge of their own max output, and possibly have ALREADY peaked internally to themselves. Ya think the world's single largest producer is going to say ANYTHING about that publicly? I'd be willing to bet money that anyone there that even THOUGHT about talking to a reporter would vanish in the night, only to re-appear in little pieces.

....turn our urine into a fuel that produced oxygen and took the CO2 out of the air, the same who are crying that the sky is falling would find another issue to cry about.

Pollution from auto and truck exhaust has drastically reduced in my lifetime. I remember when my eyes would sting and burn in traffic as do most of us over 50, now having that level of pollution is unthinkable. Same goes for water pollution, now the waste water plants discharge water that is cleaner than the rivers fish thrive in and often exceeds drinking water standards.

Those who whine, complain, and cry doomsday; will never shut up and get to work to solve the problems because they are not capable of doing so.

Japanese scientists are comparing the fear mongering of Global Warming to Astrology! But the news media will not report it.

All of use who own CRDs and properly maintain them have done more for the environment than the fools who are crying that the sky is falling.

Since most of us think out side of the box, people like us will come up with new energy sources and more efficient engines, not the fear mongers or the Politicians who just want to add on more taxes thinking it will give us an incentive to do any thing more than find a way out of having to pay the taxes.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

In order to solve energy and environmental problems, the problems need first to be acknowledged. There is a well-funded climate change denial lobby putting forth vast amounts of propaganda. Corporate media disseminates this propaganda. Labeling environmental scientists and activists as whiners, complainers, fear mongers, etc. is their stock in trade. Evidently the system is working.

The second law of thermodynamics limits the efficiency of any internal combustion engines. Joe Gearhead and all those who think outside the box will never violate it.

1) The Big Bad Corporations (BP SHELL EXXON MOBILE Bosch Siemens GE) have latched onto Climate Change as a way to make tons of money. With all due respect, where have you been lately.
2) The Pro Global Warming people are skewing the evidence they put forth, 20 inches becomes 20 feet. Sensors measuring the Ice shelf drift and give false readings, hide the truth, report the lies as fact, the end justifies the means.
3) Every day more real scientists are looking at the evidence and disagreeing or finding it inconclusive as the should. This is Peer Review.
4) Bad news sells and builds ratings good news rots along with ratings, no network wants the problem to go away it makes them money.
5) Who says that Johnny Gear Head won't tweak the Gravometric drive Engine (It will thrust like a Diesel Engine's Torque) of the future?
6) Scientists, Engineers, & Gear Heads will adapt and develop new technology that works as more of the laws of Physics reveal them selves.
7) I have stated many times that Taxation detracts from resources to develop new technology. Pay Bean Counters to find ways to get out of taxes, Engineers will not get hired. Gear Head gets taxed too much, HE/SHE does not have the money to develop ideas!!!!
8 ) Common Rail Diesel engines are now state of the art as were piston steam engines 150 years ago (5% efficient at best), with out the steam engine, the Diesel Engine would not have evolved.
9) Technology used today in Common Rail Diesel Engines will evolve into more efficient engines of the future, bicycles and buggy whips won't.
10) Hybrid technology is a knee jerk stop gap move as stale an idea as the FEED BACK CARBURETOR!! They too will die off when the second or third owner can't afford the replacement battery pack.

Go drive your Jeep, you may come up with a good idea that works.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Well, been reading with interest...

There is a well funded climate change lobby out there trying to convince everyone that acting in your own self interest is wrong and that for the good of the world we should be actively doing things that are not in our own best interest. That its better to pay $1.00 per mile for a hybrid car rather than spend .23 per mile in your used Chevy Cavalier. That its better to spend an extra 2 hours of your day to take the bus and the train rather than own your own vehicle so you can spend that time with your family. They want to tell you whats best for you, convince you that your not a good person if your not doing it their way. They are trying to force you to conform by taxing you into behaving the way they want you to behave.

Its my opinion that we humans in general don't have a clue when it comes to long term cause and effect. Wasn't it just 30 years ago there were tons of articles out there about the coming ice age. Doesn't seem to bother these global warming pundits that we've only been keeping weather records for a couple hundred years and only accurate records for the last 40 or so. The earth is 5 billion years old. Its been through many epics, the last was an Ice age only 10,000 years ago. We are still warming up from that. The south end of the great lakes are just now rebounding from the weight of the mass of glacial ice. They are actually gaining altitude by 1/2 a year. You think we humans have an effect, just wait til the next big earth quake, volcanic eruption or change in magnetic field that is sure to happen soon. The small part of global warming that we can control will seem like peanuts compared to those global changing events.

Not saying we shouldn't be good stewards of the planet. I believe in leave no trace, recycling, disposing of hazard waste correctly and doing every reasonable thing to preserve this planet for my children, but I have to do what's best for my family and frankly I resent the governments efforts at social engineering. Their job is to enable us to enjoy life, liberty and pursue our own brand of happiness. No where in the Constitution does it say the government gets to decide what happiness we are entitled to.

_________________
2005 CRD "Ol' Blue"
Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot range model air rifle with a compass in the stock and this thing which tells time.
My build page- RL Komodo Rear and TJM Front Bumper, armored, lifted, JBA Steel D30, 4.10s and ARB air lockers.

Being a real scientist myself, and a member of the American Chemical Society, I can state with certainty that the official position of the ACS is that Global Warming is anthroprogenic (resultant from human activity). This has be "peer reviewed" ad nauseum. It is generally regarded by the majority of the scientific community as "fact." You won't find a widely-recognized respected authority that will promote the contrary. You will also be hard pressed to find other highly respected scientific or engineering societies who argue the contrary.

That being said, there are some very smart people out there that believe the Global Warming either isn't an issue or that is just a natural weather cycle. However, these people are a minority. The weather on our planet is very complex. It's very difficult to model. What's being put forward is a best guess. If you're standing on a railroad track and a train is coming, most people would concede that's a good idea to get out of the way. It might not kill you, but most aren't willing to take that chance. No one can say with certainty what the effects of Global Warming will be. However, most will concede that this is an ounce of prevention outweighs a pound of cure scenario. There are those who don't fully buy in, and this is okay, but the respect the evidence for what it is. Man may not be the cause, but we're probably not helping the case. As with most things, implementing improvements or preventive measures in moderation at the very least makes sense.

As a group, scientists aren't in the business of taking measurements so that they can inflate them to create some grand scheme to scare people. The "peer review" process mitigates this pretty well. As a group, we're concerned with the "truth." The catch is that with any data, there can be many interpretations. Over time, the peer review process distills it down to a consensus. Granted, that have been a few times in history where the consensus was wrong, but this eventually got fixed with time. Given the scale, magnitude, and ramifications, this was thought about this very carefully before "signing on."

An example of the peer review process in action: Jan Hendrik Schon, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hendrik_Sch%C3%B6n Mr. Schon did a lot of work on a molecule called pentacene while at Bell Labs. He claimed all kinds of wonderful things such as making transistors and even molecular magnets. When "great" results like these are reported, it's typical for other people in other labs to try to repeat them, for they want to learn from it and apply the technique or knowledge to something different. People weren't able to repeat his experiments. A reviewer eventually noticed that he had plots of some data he collected in a paper that were identical, even down to the noise peaks, for molecular compounds that were completely different. With further examination, it was noticed that this was happened across separate publications. This resulted in all of his work being re-examined. He was fired from his job. I referred to him as "Mr." above instead of "Dr." because his university stripped him of his Ph.D.

Given time, "peer review" will catch you. ...because in the end, as scientists, we're really after the truth. I don't know who your "scientists and engineer sources" are, but it is quite possible that they are either not current or are hacks. Now, it's your right to agree or disagree with whatever theory is out there. I'm just stating how that majority of "real scientists" view this. I'll admit myself that it's difficult to believe how we could have such an effect on the planet, but I'll readily argue that we're probably not helping the cause. As stated above, we should do things in areas where it makes sense. I don't necessarily agree with all of the initiatives being put forth by the government.

....a once common disorder treated by medical doctors. In 1952 this disorder was wiped from the AMA books because peer review found it to be a total crock of bull. If you want I can PM the documentation.

Nicole Tesla questioned the Einstein Theory of Relativity, now that Physicists have put down their Kool Aid, the peer review has started and the THEORY is developing cracks and holes, yet many scientists have made it their RELIGION. Many PROFESSORS are still preaching this THEORY like a RELIGION in their lecture halls and class rooms.

Isac Newton who discovered many of the laws of Physics, but his Alchemy where he tried to turn lead into gold went through the peer review and what was legitimate was developed into chemistry and Alchemy was tossed out.

Models and Theories are not Laws. Just because (some/many?) Scientists, Journalists, and Politicians have drank the Kool Aid does not make it fact, it is a theory. Every day more Climatologists are doing their jobs and practicing peer review, truth about the Climate will come out. Opinions of Social Scientists, gynecologists, psychiatrists, ect are lumped into the totals of the Global Warming numbers.

Should we practice good stewardship for our environment, yes, it is basic house keeping.

As said before any CRD owner who maintains their Jeep has done more for the environment than the hand wringers and fear mongers who are not capable. Fear mongers and hand wringers have been proven wrong so many times that not questioning their beliefs is not very smart.

Hedging ones bet and defaulting to good environmental stewardship is the best plan of action, drinking the Kool Aid is not.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Sorry guys, ya know...forum rules, no politics etc.

_________________
Cherokee 2,5 CRD: sold - Wrangler TJ 2.5: gone - Touareg V10 TDI: new toy

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