Died 5 Times Within 10 Miles!

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:47 pm

jeeplikens wrote:

Man, I'm glad I'm reading about the CRD since I was thinking about getting one when my gas powered KJ lease is up. Sorry guys but a brand new car should not be acting like a farm tractor that's been stored in the back 40 and being started for the first time in 8 months. Ones got to question if owning one is worth it if you got to add this, add that, plug it in just to get it started and keep it running. Sounds sorta like my snow blower. :wink:

Living in the Artic? Understandable. Living in Michigan? No way.

You obviously do not understand nor appreciate the advantages of diesel power. Maybe you should get a job with Consumer Reports...you'd fit right in over there. :roll:

99% of the people who own CRDs would tell you that you'd have to pry their Jeep out of their cold dead hands to get it away from them.

Oh, and by the way...it's not a car.

jeeplikens · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:19 pm

“not a car” No stinky poo Sherlock (it was a general term so read on). First off, you need to come to terms that it's part car/truck/jeep. It took me about a year but I did with my KJ and I sleep alot better when people rag on it being a SUV or whatever. It’s transportation, it’s sucks gas and is very impractical for a family of more then 4 or 3 (if you have a pet). It's fun to drive offroad the 3 or 4 times I take it into the mud. Winters? In 2wd, my minivan goes better then the KJ. In 4WD, it's fun and goes anywhere. I have no mods so get one of the front or back wheels off the ground and your done and it's not that hard. Don't get me wrong. I like it and like to drive it but it's just a way to get around town and some back roads. I understand diesels more then I care to admit. With 2 Cummings at work (generators about the size my a KJ) , on the farm and ifrom the military (I won't talk about my 82 VW rabbit I once owned for 2 winters living in Ky). If you find it acceptable that a brand new "vehicle" has such issues in the cold (you would think from the lessons learned in Europe it wouldn't be such a problem), then it's your money and you know what they say. But I find it unacceptable that if take my brand new vehicle on a camping trip, in the cold Michigan winter and have to worry about it starting or not, I think I would just pay the little extra for the gas and get the other version. That's my point. Having a few extra pounds of pull or getting a few more miles to the gallon on a automobile that I'm not going to keep past 3 or 4 years, show me the tangible benefit.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

jeeplikens wrote:

Man, I'm glad I'm reading about the CRD since I was thinking about getting one when my gas powered KJ lease is up. Sorry guys but a brand new car should not be acting like a farm tractor that's been stored in the back 40 and being started for the first time in 8 months. Ones got to question if owning one is worth it if you got to add this, add that, plug it in just to get it started and keep it running. And here I was thinking great strides were made in diesels over the years. Seems like nothing has changed. Also sounds sorta like my snow blower at during the 1st snowfall. :wink:

Living in the Artic? Understandable. Living in Michigan? No way.

Then I guess all the TDI, Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax owners with the same cold gell, filter clogging and other cold weather issues with D2 and biodiesel should follow your assessment and abandon their diesel vehicles. Cause you can read on any diesel forum where someone, somewhere has issues with bad diesel, gelling and icing when it gets cold.

But, I've had my gasser freeze up solid while I was driving down the road, with temps hovering at 2F. Cause? Gas station owner had water in his underground tanks. Guess that makes a gasser not worth it either!

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

retmil46 wrote:

Tow finally came after I was already at work, about 10 after 2 yesterday. My mother said the guy couldn't believe it was a diesel, he had to pop the hood and check it out! :lol:

Got a voicemail from the service rep, it arrived at the dealership about 3:30, said at the latest they would get to it first thing this morning. I'm going to take Walt's advice and ask them to get a fuel sample if it is the fuel filter, and tell them which gas station it was, so they can have some words with them.

Also going to pick up one or two spare filters when I go down there, and have them show me the correct way to change one out and what tools are required. My luck, it'd happen again on my trip to Texas when I'm out in the middle of nowhere and out of cell phone range, unable to call for assistance.

Were they able to figure it out today?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:14 pm

Our town is 18,000 and the county seat, for the county with a county population of 22,000 and the local Dodge dealership see's about dozen gassers to every one diesel with water in the fuel. I have always used a water remover on a regular basis in humid climates like here where I live.

Drove a MB diesel in the 70's in MI while at CMU and never had a problem starting or from gelling and the car was 10 years old at the time. I'm sure there are owners here that have no problems starting without block heater, but just like how much easier it is on the Jeep.

When I order my next Magnum and if no diesel is available it will have the block heater option just to make life easier on the engine. What most here don't know is a cold start is harder on a gasser then a diesel. The reason for that is diesel is an oil and gas a oil removing solvent and diesels start and run at lower rpm when cold unlike a gasser.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:08 am

Well, the latest word from the dealership is.....absolutely nothing. No call, no voicemail, nothing. I called at 11:30 this morning and left a voicemail with the service rep, but nada.

I was afraid this was going to happen. This particular dealership has a very bad reputation locally concerning their quality of service. If I'd had my druthers, this would be the last place on earth I'd go to have a vehicle serviced. But since DC was paying for the tow thru their roadside assistance, and this dealership was 10 miles away versus 35 miles for the dealership I bought it at, you can guess where they decided to tow it.

I'd be willing to bet that it's still sitting in the parking lot and hasn't even been touched. Idiots probably lost the paperwork for it, like they did the one other time I went there for service, and no one has a clue what's going on with it. And the bloody service rep probably took today off and didn't turn it over to anyone.

I'm going down there bright and early tomorrow morning. If it's still sitting in the parking lot, I'm going to call the dealership I bought it from. I've dealt with their service dept several times before and found none better in the area. If they can get it in, if necessary I'll eat the cost of the tow and get it sent over there. At least I'll know it's going to get fixed right. Then I'll walk into the office and demand the keys back, and on the way out give them a friggin earful about what I think of their dealership and who I'm going to call to complain to about their service.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:21 am

For the benefit of others in the area, the name of this sucky dealership is Lake Norman Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge. I've lost count of the number of people who have related firsthand accounts, including immediate family, who have gotten less than stellar service from their so-called service dept, or gotten screwed on buying a vehicle, the final paperwork having a different set of numbers than what was initially agreed upon. IMHO I'd avoid this place like the plague.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:45 am

I have wondered for years how dealerships can stay afloat with that kind of practice. Over the last 20 years VW got a terriable rep for that kind of thing, and that has done more damage to their sales in the US then anything else. VW has spend the last 5 years trying to get this problem straightened out and has even taken franchise from a couple of dealers.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:51 am

Yep, it's become really bad in this part of the state. The local wisdom among long-time residents is if you want to buy a vehicle, get as far away from Charlotte and the interstates as you can. With so many people from other parts of the country moving into the Charlotte area, the less than reputable dealers always have a fresh crop of victims that are unaware of any particular dealer's reputation, be it good or bad.

One trump card I do have on these guys is that I'm a DC employee. Between the two assembly plants and the parts plants that Freightliner has in the area, that's probably around 10,000 potential customers that automatically get the employee discount on a DC vehicle, not even counting family members. If necessary, I'll drop a not-so-subtle hint that not only will I call their district manager, but I will also file a complaint with the UAW rep and our personnel office, the DC Employee Purchase Program office, and make sure that word of mouth gets around on the plant floor that their dealership is the last place to go when looking for a vehicle. I might also throw in that since I'm retired military, I might just call the VA and see if i can file a complaint with them as well. Short of physically decking someone, if that doesn't get their attention, nothing will.

Hopefully, I'm wrong about what's going on, and when i get down there I'll find they have been working on the vehicle. But from past experience, I sincerely doubt it. I'll be going in with tubes flooded and a firing solution locked in just in case.

If this situation happens again, I'll eat the cost of the tow to get it over to my dealership, and then recover the cost of the tow plus any other expenses necessary from the gas station.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:12 am

Quote:

I'll be going in with tubes flooded and a firing solution locked in just in case.

Bubble Head!!! :shock:

Well at least you're a D/C man, so you can't be completely crazy. :wink:

fireman1028 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:07 pm

Quote:

For the benefit of others in the area, the name of this sucky dealership is Lake Norman Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge. I've "LOST" count of the number of people who have related firsthand accounts, including immediate family, who have gotten less than stellar service from their so-called service dept, or gotten screwed on buying a vehicle, the final paperwork having a different set of numbers than what was initially agreed upon. IMHO I'd avoid this place like the plague

I know what you mean. I went there when I was in the area to see if they could fix the shudder in the tranny. After waiting for about twenty minutes for the service rep to get off the phone with his wife. I explained to him the problem and he flat out told me, "you know, I really don't care to work on those things. They're to complicated" I turned around and walked out.
Just because they have a nice and shiney new building, doesn't mean they know their a** from a hole in the ground.

We need to start a thread for a list of dealerships that we have had good experiances at.

fireman1028 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:10 pm

Quote:

Over the last 20 years VW got a terriable rep for that kind of thing, and that has done more damage to their sales in the US then anything else. VW has spend the last 5 years trying to get this problem straightened out and has even taken franchise from a couple of dealers.

One of my previous cars was a 98 Jetta TDI and I couldn't find a honest dealership within 100 miles.
VW South Blvd tried to charge me $900.00 for a glow plug relay and $350.00 to fix a bad relay (relay 109, anyone who owns or owned a early TDI know what I am talking about)

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:14 pm

Well, one good dealership is Abernethy Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge in Lincolnton, NC. Family has bought 3 vehicles thru them, always been straight up and honest, no BS, what they quoted you for numbers is what was on the paperwork, and the service dept actually LISTENS to you and doesn't pull any unnecessary work or time servicing your vehicle.

I called salesperson that I bought the Jeep thru first thing this morning. She actually began to get irate when I told her LN had the vehicle for two days and didn't give me any word what was going on, said there was no excuse for that. I told her that when i went down there, if they hadn't started work on it already, if they would be OK with having it sent over to their dealership to be checked out. While still on the phone, she went back and alerted the service manager to the possibility of my vehicle being sent over and asking when was the earliest time it could be worked in, then told me if I decided to go ahead and have it sent over to give her a call back and they would dispatch a tow vehicle. Said and done in less than 5 minutes.

When I got down to LN, I walked thru the parking area first, to make sure they weren't BS'ing me about working on it. It wasn't in the lot, and on the way to find the rep's office, looked in the window of one of the service bays, and wonder of wonders, they actually had it inside working on it.

However, what the rep said left me with less than a warm fuzzy. First, he said it was busy around the holidays, but they'd managed to get it in that morning to work on it. That pretty much confirmed to me that it had sat down there for 2 days with nothing done to it. He said they were still checking it out and might be able to give me a phone call this afternoon saying what was wrong with it. I've read the service manual test for a clogged fuel filter, at most it would take 30 minutes if you were dragging your feet. The fact that he didn't tell me they had already checked it, after I steered them in that direction to begin with, told me they hadn't checked it yet and most likely were dragging this out for all it was worth, knowing in the end that was probably going to be the root cause. I began to wonder if he had related anything I'd told him to the mechanic. When I repeated my story of what had happened with the vehicle, and mentioned I had checked the service manual and all the symptoms pointed to the fuel filter, it was like talking to a brick wall. he just said they'd never seen a vehicle behave this way before, and it would take time to check it out. I pretty much figured at that point that I was going to be taken for a expensive ride.

Since they already had it in the bay working on it, it was past the point of redemption at that point. I am going to ask for a detailed list of all the work they did on it, and run it by my dealership to see if any of the work they performed was uncalled for and padded the bill.

jeeplikens · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:32 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

jeeplikens wrote:

Man, I'm glad I'm reading about the CRD since I was thinking about getting one when my gas powered KJ lease is up. Sorry guys but a brand new car should not be acting like a farm tractor that's been stored in the back 40 and being started for the first time in 8 months. Ones got to question if owning one is worth it if you got to add this, add that, plug it in just to get it started and keep it running. And here I was thinking great strides were made in diesels over the years. Seems like nothing has changed. Also sounds sorta like my snow blower at during the 1st snowfall. :wink:

Living in the Artic? Understandable. Living in Michigan? No way.

Then I guess all the TDI, Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax owners with the same cold gell, filter clogging and other cold weather issues with D2 and biodiesel should follow your assessment and abandon their diesel vehicles. Cause you can read on any diesel forum where someone, somewhere has issues with bad diesel, gelling and icing when it gets cold.

But, I've had my gasser freeze up solid while I was driving down the road, with temps hovering at 2F. Cause? Gas station owner had water in his underground tanks. Guess that makes a gasser not worth it either!

Never had one freeze up driving down the road but replaced the WHOLE fuel system on a 81 Jetta because of water. A co-worker has a TDI. He said he's never had problems with his diesel. He claims he's never poor anything in it and it's 2 years old. I expect problems when a vehicle is a few years old but we are talking NEW here and these things should be good to go. Funny though, over at a VW TDI forum, don't see many complaining about these new TDI's not running.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Here's a 2002 Golf TDI owner with a frozen fuel system... 02's are fairly new, lacking only unit injectors. Still use high pressure injectors, modern glow plugs and D2 or B20 for fuel. There are others as well.

"Last night it supposedly hit 11 degrees F. I run commercial B20, with no additives. This morning, the car wouldn't start - turn the key, wait for glowplug light, start car, it ran for about 1 second, then died. I did this 10 times, then put a hairdryer pointing at the fuel pump for about 2 minutes, tried about 6 more times, and it started. I let it idle for about a minute, then drove off. No loss of power, no hesitation, nothing. I figure if the B20 gelled, the entire fuel lines would have been full of said gel.

So, is it the un-altered B20?
The IQ of 8ish ? (dont remember exact number)
Anyone else in Providence running B20 had trouble starting?"

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:18 pm

I had B10 in the tank on a 3* morning, it started right up in the 60* garage with no problem. :lol:

Sorry I just could not resist. :roll:

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

And my CRD running B20 starts right up at 16F... but its not just CRD's that get clogged fuel filters. I was lucky when I hit a bad batch of D2 - it was late March and too warm to matter.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:31 am

Believe it or not, I got a voicemail at 4 PM while at work. It was the rep from LN, they had found the problem, fixed it, and the CRD was ready to go.

We were both right and wrong on the cause. It was a fuel supply problem, but it wasn't a clogged filter. Let's just say it was because the fuel itself was part 45 cetane and part 87 OCTANE!!!!! :shock:

Yep, there was gasoline mixed in with this tank of B20 that I filled up with back on Sunday. Apparently the last time fuel was delivered to this station, either the tanker operator or the station attendant screwed up and filled the B20 storage tank with regular unleaded! Either that, or the distributor screwed up royal and instead of blending #2 diesel and bio, blended regular unleaded and bio!

The poor guy running the station is going to have more to worry about than just me filing a claim against him. He has (or more likely HAD) a contract with the city of Salisbury to refuel the city transit buses with biodiesel, also with Rowan County and state of NC to provide fuel for their vehicles. Gawd, that's going to be a ton of money, fixing the engines in an entire fleet of transit buses, not to mention the county and state vehicles as well.

I'm going to give the station a call in the morning, but I'm pretty sure after this much time he's had several parties bring this matter to his attention, probably in not a very pleasant manner.

Apparently, I was very lucky. Total bill from the dealership for repairs was about $300. Apparently there weren't any high-end items such as fuel injectors that had to be replaced. They did mention they had to replace quite a few items, I'll get the full story tomorrow morning. I was having nightmares of a repair bill in multiples of 4 figures, and was actually relieved to hear the $300 figure.

Depending on what I find tomorrow, I may have to retract some of the harsh words I've directed their way, at least the service dept. Apparently there have been a few changes since I was down their last, and they might actually have a few people now who know what they're about.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:22 am

Well I glad it has all worked out for you, and no real damage done. Sounds like you got it under control, hope the station and it supplier have good insurance.

It kind of strange but last week about the same thing happened here local when a supplier dumped D2 into the regular gas tank and they gaught it with only about 3 or 4 cars messed up and having to be towed to shop for repairs. The tanker hadn't even finnished fueling before the mistake was discovered by the cars filling up.

Most here probably thinks this is a rare happening, but I bet there is at least one station each month somewhere with the same problem. Be it diesel in the gas, gas in the diesel, kerosene in gas, ect. I remember back in the late 70's a small airport in SC had jet fuel put into the gasoline for piston planes, and caused a real scare amoung some people. I seem to remember one plane was awaiting takeoff when the engine died.

Taz · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:10 am

Back in the 70's in MN they used to blend regular fuel with the Diesel to keep it from gelling. It was a cheap way to lower the gel point. The Regular gas would have the effect of lowering the Cetane rating, which would explain the lower fuel milage. Also the computer would dump more fuel into the cylinder to compensate for the lower effective cetane which could account for a sootier exhaust. One problem that the truckers had back when they blended regular in the diesel is that the oil would get contaminated with regular fuel and reduce its lubricating properties. You should consider changing the oil soon.

Died 5 Times Within 10 Miles!

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