It is currently Tue Dec 02, 2025 7:25 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:35 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:24 pm
Posts: 977
Location: Victoria, Canada
ATXKJ wrote:
Squeeto wrote:
Show me a link that proves that unburnt hydrocarbons are not reduced by hydrogen fuel cells please.


actually from a debate standpoint -
you have made a claim "the introduction of hydrogen may help burn the fuel more efficiently"
That claim has not been accepted
therefore it is your responsibility in the debate - to support the claim or abandon it

it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim.


I said "the introduction of hydrogen" MAY "help burn the fuel more efficiently". I don't know. But others have said that this definitely doesn't work. If the "definitely" people know this for a fact, show me a link that proves that unburnt hydrocarbons are not reduced by hydrogen fuel cells please.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:28 am 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:33 pm
Posts: 1766
Location: Wisconsin Northwoods
Squeeto wrote:
I said "the introduction of hydrogen" MAY "help burn the fuel more efficiently". I don't know. But others have said that this definitely doesn't work. If the "definitely" people know this for a fact, show me a link that proves that unburnt hydrocarbons are not reduced by hydrogen fuel cells please.


Squeeto, did you read all of the linked series of articles? I can't understand why you are looking for proof of unburnt hydrocarbons when you already quoted from the study which was performed in Barcelona in this post...

Squeeto wrote:
Also from the article:
Quote:
The experimental results demonstrate that the hydrogen addition in the intake air has an
influence on improvement of engine power, and energy consumption (Fig. 5, 7, 8). NO
emissions are very complicated (Fig. 9). Higher smoke of exhaust gases is observed (Fig. 10).
The higher engine power with hydrogen addition (Fig. 5, 7) is due to the additional heat
released from hydrogen combustion and to the reduced combustion duration (1). The
combustion of hydrogen addition provides additional heat energy, which is one of the reasons
for а higher engine output. The shorter combustion duration causes lower heat transfer rate
thought the combustion chamber walls and higher diesel fuel heat utilization. As a result of
the calculations that were done, the increase of the whole heat added to the engine cycle due
to hydrogen combustion is 2,44% averaged over the entire investigated engine speed region.
But the averaged power improvement obtained as a result of the experimental investigation is
15% (Fig. 7). The middle indicated pressure improvement at 1500 rpm is 14.8% (Fig. 5).
These facts show that the power improvement comes not only from the energy added as a
result of hydrogen addition. The greater part of power increase is due to combustion process
improvement by the means of combustion duration reduction because of superior combustion
and flame propagation properties of hydrogen. The proofs of this statement are the curves of
net heat release and net heat release rate shown respectively on (Fig. 4) and (Fig. 3).


Whether or not the energy used to make the hydrogen is less than the improved combustion energy is for another study.


Read the third line again. Why did you post it if you didn't understand what it was talking about? You should read [/i][/u]ALL[u][i] of the article, especially this page... http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam2.shtml
It should answer any further doubts which you have on the matter.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:38 am 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:59 pm
Posts: 5171
Location: Austin, TX
to say something 'may' occur - is pure conjecture
it is rebutted simply

1)If that were true there would be evidence
2) there is no evidence
3) it is not true.

if you want it to be taken as a serious point - you must provide evidence or analysis that it should be taken seriously

i.e.
I may have an invisible dragon in my garage
I may have little green men pushing my Jeep
I may have Red Matter in my fuel tank

if I do not provide support - the statements are disregarded - without someone having to 'prove' they are wrong



as to HHO -
nursecosmo's link is very good -
a point of note - the engine in the Barcelona study -
they pumped in 240Liters/hour - 4 Liters/ minute of gas mixture into a single cylinder 6 hp motor
and it did not clean up the exhaust.

There should be evidence
there is no evidence
it is not true.

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:43 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:24 pm
Posts: 977
Location: Victoria, Canada
Nursecosmo
I am not expressing myself properly. Maybe my vernacular.

Quote:
Squeeto, did you read all of the linked series of articles? I can't understand why you are looking for proof of unburnt hydrocarbons when you already quoted from the study which was performed in Barcelona in this post...


Of course I know that this is proof. ATXKJ said that it was my "responsibility in the debate - to support the claim or abandon it". I had said that "the introduction of hydrogen MAY help burn the fuel more efficiently". How can I defend a "may"? It is self defending.

"Show me a link that proves that unburnt hydrocarbons are not reduced by hydrogen fuel cells please." was written before I found the proof.

I was arguing my right to ask the question without having to support my statement which contains a "may". I wasn't re-asking the question.

Quote:
I said "the introduction of hydrogen" MAY "help burn the fuel more efficiently". I don't know. But others have said that this definitely doesn't work. If the "definitely" people know this for a fact, show me a link that proves that unburnt hydrocarbons are not reduced by hydrogen fuel cells please.


To be more clear, I could have written it as:

I said "the introduction of hydrogen" MAY "help burn the fuel more efficiently". I don't know. But others have said that this definitely doesn't work. The "definitely" people may know this for a fact and that is why I asked to show me a link that proves that unburnt hydrocarbons are not reduced by hydrogen fuel cells.

Nursecosmo, I have yet to read your link so I cannot comment.

ATXKJ
Quote:
if you want it to be taken as a serious point - you must provide evidence or analysis that it should be taken seriously


I am not defending anything but myself right now. Sorry if I annoyed you.

We now have some proof that hydrogen and oxygen mixed with diesel increases fuel economy/power. Is it enough to compensate for the current/power (electrical) loss to run a hydrogen generator?

From the beginning of this post, all I have been trying to say is keep an open mind until someone posts empirical fact that this does or does not work.

**************

This is going off-topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:47 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:24 pm
Posts: 977
Location: Victoria, Canada
Quote:
Nursecosmo, I have yet to read your link so I cannot comment.


Same artical as before?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:03 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:25 pm
Posts: 1306
Location: Colorado USA
Squeeto wrote:
We now have some proof that hydrogen and oxygen mixed with diesel increases fuel economy/power. Is it enough to compensate for the current/power (electrical) loss to run a hydrogen generator?

From the beginning of this post, all I have been trying to say is keep an open mind until someone posts empirical fact that this does or does not work.
Run the numbers. It is well understood by scientific types that locally producing hydrogen takes far more energy than any gain in efficiency. All the internet plans you see generate minuscule amounts of H2 that have no measurable effect on mileage or emissions. If you make a generator big enough to make a dfference, the process is SO energy intensive it makes the venture an overall net LOSS. These facts are not in dispute, so keeping an "open mind" at this point is simply being blind.

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:16 pm 
Offline
LOST Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:26 am
Posts: 254
Location: Bethesda, MD
it takes more energy to create it then it makes. No gain. People always say THEY have made a new way to make it... but never any gains.

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD
235/75R16 Firestone Destination's, Fumoto Valve
Boiler's Aluminum Roof Rack


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:32 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:33 pm
Posts: 1766
Location: Wisconsin Northwoods
Squeeto wrote:
Quote:
Nursecosmo, I have yet to read your link so I cannot comment.


Same artical as before?


Same as before. It examines the idea from every possible angle. There is no need to defend yourself. Its just that none of us who have investigated the issue want those scammers selling the HHO kits to get any fatter off of good folks who just haven't been given the facts.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:20 pm 
Offline
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:25 pm
Posts: 1306
Location: Colorado USA
Squeeto wrote:
Unfortunately there has been so much negative response against people who believe that they can run their cars on water that hydrogen fuel cells have attained a bad rapport. I know that our trucks do not always burn the fuel at 100% because it is still illegal to remove the catalytic converter. I am open to the idea that the introduction of hydrogen may help burn the fuel more efficiently giving better economy. Even over the current loss it takes to generate the hydrogen. Maybe someone on the forum has tried it? Kits seem to be very cheap now to buy.
Read this first Squeeto.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4310717.html

_________________
'05 Liberty CRD B100, SEGR - SOLD

'01 Beetle TDi B100, EGR delete
'83 Mercedes 240D B100, no EGR

--- SEGR Builder ---


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:35 am 
Offline
LOST Junkie
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:24 pm
Posts: 977
Location: Victoria, Canada
UFO wrote:
Squeeto wrote:
Unfortunately there has been so much negative response against people who believe that they can run their cars on water that hydrogen fuel cells have attained a bad rapport. I know that our trucks do not always burn the fuel at 100% because it is still illegal to remove the catalytic converter. I am open to the idea that the introduction of hydrogen may help burn the fuel more efficiently giving better economy. Even over the current loss it takes to generate the hydrogen. Maybe someone on the forum has tried it? Kits seem to be very cheap now to buy.
Read this first Squeeto.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4310717.html


Good to see (March 27, 2009) Popular Mechanics and NBC spending the money to debunk HHO cells so that we don't have to. Nice find.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group. Color scheme by ColorizeIt!
Logo by pixeldecals.com