Waiting for the bad news....

flman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:16 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

I just spoke with him.

He's at a Jeep dealership now and said his turbo blew oil out and he just got to an exit and the engine started knocking and quit.

So now he'll need to wait till monday so they can find a Jeep dealer to repair it.

Joe

I guess there is only so much the CRD rescue squad can do, besides put you up for the night in the event of a major problem.

jinstall · **Posted:** Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:47 pm

Thanks all that called, I was driving up hill and the turbo oil seal let loose and everything went from bad to catastrophic is a matter of seconds. It is sitting at tue jeep dealer waiting to be looked at on Monday. I am pretty sure it will need a new engine, some feels you just know. Not sure if I will fix it or sell/trade it in. I love the little thing and just got it to where I wanted it and now this happens. Thanks again for all the phone calls this site really comes in for you!!!!

dkenny · **Posted:** Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:58 pm

wish I had seen this latest issue sooner..
I'm near Raleigh..or about 3 hrs away..

sorry to hear about your troubles.

-dkenny

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:40 pm

I hate to keep hearing about crap like this happening. Seams like someone is going through a catastrophy every other month and it's making me sick.

How can we stop this trend?

What are we doing wrong?

MustangPunk · **Joined:** Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:44 pm **Posts:** 11

racertracer wrote:

I hate to keep hearing about crap like this happening. Seams like someone is going through a catastrophy every other month and it's making me sick.

How can we stop this trend?

What are we doing wrong?

I don't know, but it makes me worry lol... I'm in Iraq now and the wife is back in Michigan and I sure hope nothing happens over the next year... I didnt even have time from when we got it till I left to change the fuel filter, do a provent/or EHM, and either a tune for less EGR etc... Which I wanted too, just no time. Though when I'm home on R&R, I'm for sure replacing the timing belt and all that goes with it, since it will hit 100k before then, I just hope nothing lets loose before... I was a auto/diesel tech before joining, so if doo doo hits the fan while I'm gone and I have to pay others to get it fixed I'd be even more mad...

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:48 am

Any theories as to why his turbo took a dump?
Could a poor timing belt installation lead to higher exhaust temps and turbo failure?
(doesn't seem likely)
This would not be the first turbo to crap out and take the engine down with it.
Maybe someone could start a sticky to create a log of these catastrophic failures and their causes.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:56 am

jinstall wrote:

I am pretty sure it will need a new engine, some feels you just know.

Wow, did it lock up on you or something? Was it from lack of oil? Did you drive it for a while with no oil? I hope a new turbo and oil is all you need.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:57 am

racertracer wrote:

I hate to keep hearing about crap like this happening. Seams like someone is going through a catastrophy every other month and it's making me sick.

How can we stop this trend?

What are we doing wrong?

I am going to ride my horses until they drop dead. :JEEPIN:

jinstall · **Posted:** Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:41 am

Going up a long grade on I40 it started smoking heavily and then loosing power. I got a ready to exit and then the engine started knocking, I coasted up the exit ramp and just off tot he side when the engine choked itself out. I check the oil and it was empty. It was at the dealer the day before to be checked and they said it would be good to get back home, well it only made it 60 miles before it died.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:16 am

Jinstall,

Did you repair the timing belt issue?

I read about the timing belt being off a tooth from your previous post, but what do you think happened that caused the turbo to crap out?

What were the chain of events?

VMKJCRD · **Posted:** Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:14 pm

jinstall wrote:

I check the oil and it was empty.

The low oil light is worthless on these Jeeps it seems like. I check my oil every 2 weeks and even sometimes once a week.
All it takes is 2 minutes.

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

Checking your oil before every drive won't help with a blown turbo oil seal.

jinstall · **Posted:** Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:55 am

Well you know they say things happen for a reason, I am still wondering why this is playing out the way it did. I am currently at my brother's Nana's house because she passed a few hours before the Jeep died. I think I was supposed to be here one way or another. I just wish it would have been a cheaper way of telling me. GDE called yesterday and a email came from United Diesel (Scott) last night. This group of folks that troll this forum are pretty darn good in my book. I just hope one day I can return the favors.

Subdolphin · **Joined:** Tue May 18, 2010 8:37 pm **Posts:** 15

I just had my 06 turbo go out yesterday. I am sure it is an oil related problem. I'll start tearing into it today, but I am pretty confident that I will find either a leaking turbo oil line, or a leaking seal.
In my case, the clues were there but I didn't get on top of it. I started seeing a few, small, oil drops every few days on my garage floor. I checked my oil and looked around with a light, but couldn't see anything.
Lost power yesterday about 15 miles from home. The turbo was whining pretty loudly. I was able to limp home and as I pulled in to my garage, the oil light came on. The oil was low but not what I would consider fatally low. Had I been further away, I'd have probably shut it off and got towed.
I just chaulk it up to experience and move on. I'll take oil spotting more seriously in the future. I do my own work and I figure I'll have around $900 in parts. I can't wait to discover the oil line set up on this unit.
I do think we are sometimes too quick to assume an engine must be replaced due to oil problems. It takes more to kill and engine than most folks think.
I'll take some pics and post them if I find anything interesting.

jinstall · **Posted:** Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:33 pm

As far as I can tell there are no leaks, never a drop in the driveway. Now on the valve cover that is a different story. I forgot what the black disc is called on the the VC but it is somewhat like a PCV and it started leaking about a week ago.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:01 pm

Oh man......

I hadn't seen this thread until today, and I'm feeling REALLY bad for both you (Jinstall) and Subdolphin. Low oil from a leaking turbo means that in all likelihood... Your #1 cylinder is toasted too. The turbo oil feed is directly connected to the oil feed for the #1 cylinder. Without the pressure of the turbo there, the cylinder starves for oil within 10 miles. On mine, this lead to the crank bearings on both the #1 and #2 to spin, but the #1 was completely gone when I got it apart. #2 was half-melted out of its designated location.

Jinstall - Yea, you will need a new engine, 99% certain. Will the dealer pony up for it, since they were the ones most recently having it in pieces? I really hope so.

Sub - When you get to putting the new turbo in and are ready to start it up... Have a VERY good listen to the engine at idle. If it is making ANY NOISES other than the runrunrunrunrunrunrrunrunrunrunrunrurnrun of a happy diesel.... SHUT IT OFF and look at rebuilding the bottom end. Noises on this motor = almost certain doom, as several people have discovered.

I'm starting to agree - Are we doing something wrong here? This is looking more and more like a design flaw issue (not that we will get ANY support from Chrysler) but there must be something we can do to protect the engine even more.

How about those oil centrifuges, except plumb the output to both the turbo AND an oil dump at the top cap... (take the input from the stock filter outlet by the sensor) That way, the turbo gets a direct feed of super-clean oil, and the #1 cylinder gets protected by NOT sharing oil pressure with the turbo...? GDE? Would this work?

Subdolphin · **Joined:** Tue May 18, 2010 8:37 pm **Posts:** 15

I appreciate the heads up. I'll certainly keep an eye out for trouble. I had oil pressure to the very end so I really think I'm gonna be okay. It appears the turbo oil supply is in parallel rather than series with the internal supplies.
I sure don't see any way a timing belt problem would effect the waste gate temp. And I would think that a mistake on the belt install would give you a code. Maybe?
I have seen numerous warnings about not turning your engine off before your turbo has a chance to cool down (after highway). The SM cites this as the most common cause for turbo bearing failure.
I'll keep you guys posted, I'm just gettin a slow start.
Thanks for the input...I sure hope you're wrong on this one!!

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:26 pm

How do you know you had oil pressure? How low did the engine get on oil? Do you have an external oil pressure gauge with a sender mounted somewhere other than the bottom of the engine?

The problem - You CANNOT trust the factory oil pressure sender to that idiot light. It is located directly opposite the filter outlet, which is fed from the pump... So this is the ONE place in the entire system that would be the LAST to run out of oil. As long as you had at least 1 quart for the pump to shove into the filter... The sender will think there is pressure.

Perfect example: When my turbo failed, I lost a GALLON of oil (so only 2 quarts or so left in the engine) into the exhaust line... The idiot light NEVER LIT. Yet after towing it back home and replacing the turbo, refilling it with oil... It ate the #1 piston less than 10 miles later on the test drive and spat it out through the pan.

Subdolphin · **Joined:** Tue May 18, 2010 8:37 pm **Posts:** 15

It was down about maybe 2 qts at the most. The oil light came on as I was coming up to my garage. I figure that was the point at which the breach between the bearing and the gas path allowed oil to suck through. Maybe like a venturi effect.
No I don't think oil lights are that good, but I trust them as much as any other stock sensor in my system.
I figure the copious flow of oil anywhere, even flowing out of my turbo, is a pretty reliable indicator of oil pressure beyond the area you described.
What is it that makes you think that any oil leak on the turbo starves #1 cylinder? It doesn't appear that these things are piped to depend on the turbo return to supply anything else.
Is it possible that it was just that you ran out of oil? Two qts ain't much. Even if your turbo was fine, 2 qts could be a problem.
4-4.5 qts of oil is a whole lotta oil to blow through your turbo! Man I'd hate to be the guy behind you.
As to the other concern in this thread regarding generic failures of CRD turbos, I talked today with one of the few outfits that sell rebuilt turbos. I don't know if it's any indicator but they don't think they have any core to rebuild yet.
I may have to send mine to them and wait on it.
Could be that it's just cause it's a new nondealer part. I know nobody but the dealers have ps pump for CRD's either and the rebuild factory says there is no demand and there are no cores.
It would be nice to think that ours are isolated problems and not what is in store for others. I do know that this VM Motori engine is pretty highly regarded in countries were small diesels are popular.
I think I'm save my high regard until I know my bearing are ok!!

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:11 am

I know that the #1 cylinder and the turbo are connected by the oil gallery that feeds them. Think of a T pipe. I had plenty of time to inspect this system and see where the flow went while cleaning out my wrecked block. I put a pressure washer up against one of the holes (Sorry, I don't recall exactly where it was) and blew - The water came blasting out of the #1 piston crankshaft port, and the still-connected oil line to the not-mounted turbo. It wasn't coming out of anywhere else.

Yea, losing a gallon of oil into the turbo would have been bad, if it had been into a hot exhaust - The engine and exhaust were cold, I had just started off that morning. 32* out, and it had not been plugged in the night before. Stone-cold engine oil. I believe this is what contributed to the turbo failure in the first place.

But think about the pressure feeding a T pipe. If you have 2 restrictions on the outlets, both sides will flow the same amounts. Remove one side's restriction (blown turbo seal) and the still-restricted side will starve for lubricant. This is what happened, and the only thing that could have caused such damage in such a short period. For the record - After my turbo blew, I thought I had only popped a boost hose. Felt exactly the same. I coasted to a stop about 1/4 mile away, at an intersection. Pulling to the far side of the intersection (still idling the motor) was when I first heard anything unusual - A rattling from the turbo b/c the exhaust turbine had actually snapped from the shaft. THEN I shut it off... And discovered the loss of oil. It wasn't smoking, just pumping (at 80psi) all the oil into the exhaust.

At such high pressure and flow, losing 4 quarts in less than 45 seconds is completely possible. If you are only 2 quarts down, consider yourself lucky. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that the #1 cylinder didn't starve for pressure for even that short time... But hopefully it didn't have enough time to overheat and hurt itself.

Waiting for the bad news....

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