REALLY Dirty cooling system - should I flush, or not?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:03 am

racertracer wrote:

ColoCRDx2, I would like to know how many miles and months ago your cooling system was flushed!

Read the first post :banghead:

You'll see his CRD has 94,000 miles. Then if you read further you'll see to his knowledge nothing has been done to it. BUT his son was driving it for a period of time and what happened during this time is uncertain :dizzy:

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:32 am

Joe Romas wrote:

racertracer wrote:

ColoCRDx2, I would like to know how many miles and months ago your cooling system was flushed!

Read the first post :banghead:

You'll see his CRD has 94,000 miles. Then if you read further you'll see to his knowledge nothing has been done to it. BUT his son was driving it for a period of time and what happened during this time is uncertain :dizzy:

I Know he has 94,000 miles.... that is not what i am asking.

From his post I understand that some technician might have topped it off with non approved coolant while his son had it for a time and then returned the CRD to his father.

But if you read my post, I am asking how many miles AGO was the cooling system flushed.

Maintenace schedule might have been adhered to, even though his son at one time unknowingly topped it off with non spec coolant.

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:37 am

[quote="racertracer"]ColoCRDx2, I would like to know how many miles and months ago your cooling system was flushed![/quote

This Jeep has 94.000 miles on it and has never actually had the cooling system flushed, that I know of. The plan was to do all that along with the timing belt & water pump this summer. But then we started having these overheating problems. Well, actually - the system was flushed as part of the diagnosis of this problem, but that was only 10 miles ago, before I started taking it apart.

We've always done the work on these Jeeps ourselves, other than a few oil changes here and there that were done at a Jiffy Lube type place. It might have been at one of these that someone put something wrong into the tank. But, I would more likely suspect that it was at the Jeep dealer during one of the major services that was done.

This car is on it's third EGR (currently disabled by ORM because it's failing again), the turbo failed early, as did the rear main seal and some other major issues.

I went to my local dealer the other day, inquiring about the Mopar Radiator Kleen that's referred to in the FSM. Both the parts guy and service manager had no idea what I was referring to = but showed me the 'stuff' that they use in all vehicle cooling systems. It was a three part treatment made by MOC Products consisting of "Cooling-System Fast Flush", "Cool Off" and "Cooling-System Multi-Treatment". Looking at MOC's website, the specs for the first item states "Compatible with all types of antifreeze.", while the other two say "Compatible with all conventional antifreeze/coolant".... would HOAT be considered a conventional antifreeze?

Anyway, if the dealer did happen to drain and/or flush during one of the major services they did - this is the stuff they would have put in the system. Maybe where the whole problem started?

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:44 am

My son is 30 years old and has had this car since it was new. There's never been any cooling issues, so he never would have done more than just visually check the level in the tank. When the first overheating issues started this summer - no coolant, water, or anything else was added. The level was always right at the mark.

I'm pretty sure that the culprit was the un-diesel-educated dealer.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:18 am

ColoCRDx2 wrote:

My son is 30 years old and has had this car since it was new. There's never been any cooling issues, so he never would have done more than just visually check the level in the tank. When the first overheating issues started this summer - no coolant, water, or anything else was added. The level was always right at the mark.

I'm pretty sure that the culprit was the un-diesel-educated dealer.

Your cooling system is no different then a gas engine,the same care is needed for both so don't blame anyone besides yourself.

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:35 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

ColoCRDx2 wrote:

My son is 30 years old and has had this car since it was new. There's never been any cooling issues, so he never would have done more than just visually check the level in the tank. When the first overheating issues started this summer - no coolant, water, or anything else was added. The level was always right at the mark.

I'm pretty sure that the culprit was the un-diesel-educated dealer.

Your cooling system is no different then a gas engine,the same care is needed for both so don't blame anyone besides yourself.

Really?!?!? Should I really be the one that has to tell the dealer how to properly flush my cooling system? Or, what additives they can/can't use? Or, camp out in their shop as they perform repairs that they should be trained to do? Maybe you've found competent mechanics at the dealers in your part of the world, but I never have.

And what cooling system "care" did I miss?

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:57 am

I think what we are wanting to know is .... was the cooling sytem maintenance done on schedule?

Was the cooling system flushed between the 50,000 and 75,000 mile mark?

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:58 am

ColoCRDx2 wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

ColoCRDx2 wrote:

My son is 30 years old and has had this car since it was new. There's never been any cooling issues, so he never would have done more than just visually check the level in the tank. When the first overheating issues started this summer - no coolant, water, or anything else was added. The level was always right at the mark.

I'm pretty sure that the culprit was the un-diesel-educated dealer.

Your cooling system is no different then a gas engine,the same care is needed for both so don't blame anyone besides yourself.

Really?!?!? Should I really be the one that has to tell the dealer how to properly flush my cooling system? Or, what additives they can/can't use? Or, camp out in their shop as they perform repairs that they should be trained to do? Maybe you've found competent mechanics at the dealers in your part of the world, but I never have.

And what cooling system "care" did I miss?

1st the dealer will only use the correct HOAT coolant and there flush kits will be okay with HOAT coolants otherwise every single vehicle they service will have issues.The biggest mistake is thinking any coolant can go 100k+ miles before a flush in a small capicity system.

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:46 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

The biggest mistake is thinking any coolant can go 100k+ miles before a flush in a small capicity system.

Yes, about that you are certainly right.

I should have known better, just never really thought about it - until now. Now I know for sure.

Just like the factory recommended oil change interval is 6,250 miles.... I would never go that long, and have always changed at 3,000 to 4,000 miles. Now I know to disregard the factory's coolant flush interval recommendation too. :!:

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:43 pm

Here is what I found while scouring the net

DESCRIPTION - ENGINE COOLANT
WARNING: ANTIFREEZE IS AN ETHYLENE GLYCOL BASE COOLANT AND IS HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. IF SWALLOWED, DRINK TWO GLASSES OF WATER AND INDUCE VOMITING. IF INHALED, MOVE TO FRESH AIR AREA. SEEK MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT STORE IN OPEN OR UNMARKED CONTAINERS. WASH SKIN AND CLOTHING THOROUGHLY AFTER COMING IN CONTACT WITH ETHYLENE GLYCOL. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN. DISPOSE OF GLYCOL BASE COOLANT PROPERLY, CONTACT YOUR DEALER OR GOVERNMENT AGENCY FOR LOCATION OF COLLECTION CENTER IN YOUR AREA. DO NOT OPEN A COOLING SYSTEM WHEN THE ENGINE IS AT OPERATING TEMPERATURE OR HOT UNDER PRESSURE, PERSONAL INJURY CAN RESULT. AVOID RADIATOR COOLING FAN WHEN ENGINE COMPARTMENT RELATED SERVICE IS PERFORMED, PERSONAL INJURY CAN RESULT.

CAUTION: Use of Propylene Glycol based coolants is not recommended, as they provide less freeze protection and less boiling protection.

The cooling system is designed around the coolant. The coolant must accept heat from engine metal, in the cylinder head area near the exhaust valves and engine block. Then coolant carries the heat to the radiator where the tube/fin radiator can transfer the heat to the air.

The use of aluminum cylinder blocks, cylinder heads, and water pumps requires special corrosion protection. Mopar® Antifreeze/Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (MS-9769), or the equivalent ethylene glycol base coolant with hybrid organic corrosion inhibitors (called HOAT, for Hybrid Organic Additive Technology) is recommended. This coolant offers the best engine cooling without corrosion when mixed with 50% Ethylene Glycol and 50% distilled water to obtain a freeze point of -37°C (-35°F). If it loses color or becomes contaminated, drain, flush, and replace with fresh properly mixed coolant solution.

The green coolant MUST NOT BE MIXED with the orange or magenta coolants. When replacing coolant the complete system flush must be performed before using the replacement coolant.

CAUTION: Mopar® Antifreeze/Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (MS-9769) may not be mixed with any other type of antifreeze. Doing so will reduce the corrosion protection and may result in premature water pump seal failure. If non-HOAT coolant is introduced into the cooling system in an emergency, it should be replaced with the specified coolant as soon as possible.

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:59 pm

racertracer wrote:

I think what we are wanting to know is .... was the cooling sytem maintenance done on schedule?

Was the cooling system flushed between the 50,000 and 75,000 mile mark?

You guys had me wondering, so I checked my owner's manuals when I got home.....

I've always followed the Maintenance Schedule(s) that came with the vehicle(s).

In the case of both of our CRD's I've followed "Schedule B" which is for vehicles that see more severe service. You know, it's the schedule that recommends changing the oil/filter at 6,250 mile intervals instead of 12,500 mile intervals - which schedule would you follow? (and by "you", I mean any reader.... not just you, racertracer) Would anyone hoping to keep a car for hundreds of thousands of miles ever go 12,500 miles between oil changes?

Like I said in an earlier post - you guys are correct in saying that I should have known better than wait 100,000 miles before changing the coolant (as recommended by Maintenance Schedule B.) At least that what it says in the owner's manuals of both my 2005 & 2006. Has anyone out there seen different in their manuals?

Researching this issue and hearing all the feedback here - I promise to do better in the future. :cry:

But I don't think that the 94,000 mile wait is what killed this cooling system - the coolant in my 2006 CRD with 98,000 miles has never been changed either - and it looks perfect. Like it was just poured out of the jug.

BTW - in my manuals "Maintenence Schedule A" for less severe service (with 12,500 mile oil change intervals) - recommends coolant flush and refill at 62,500 miles.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:25 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

Your cooling system is no different then a gas engine,the same care is needed for both so don't blame anyone besides yourself.

Don't sugar coat it man, tell him what you really think. We should figure out where he lives and point out all that's wrong with his house, family, diet, job skills, and personal grooming habits. You have great advice, but you must take crap from people all day long. Don't you work at a Jeep dealer?

I had my thermo replaced a while ago, and now I'm worried I didn't ask for a full flush. Perhaps I'm sitting on a 92k time bomb. I'll be sure to keep it to myself if I end up with tar in my system.

Sorry, I already know I have a snow day tomorrow, and I've been enjoying my beer and watching Tosh.0. Maybe I'm the a-hole in the room tonight.

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:44 pm

Finger pointing doen't belong here.

Fact finding for what to look for when our CRD follows suit and discovering ways to properly repair the issue is what we are after.

All's well.....and thumbs up brothers.

And sisters.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:59 pm

Big Montana wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

Your cooling system is no different then a gas engine,the same care is needed for both so don't blame anyone besides yourself.

Don't sugar coat it man, tell him what you really think. We should figure out where he lives and point out all that's wrong with his house, family, diet, job skills, and personal grooming habits. You have great advice, but you must take crap from people all day long. Don't you work at a Jeep dealer?

I had my thermo replaced a while ago, and now I'm worried I didn't ask for a full flush. Perhaps I'm sitting on a 92k time bomb. I'll be sure to keep it to myself if I end up with tar in my system.

Sorry, I already know I have a snow day tomorrow, and I've been enjoying my beer and watching Tosh.0. Maybe I'm the a-hole in the room tonight.

Yeah I don't sugar coat anything.I used to work for a GM/Jeep dealership,now in a independant shop and yes I hear the stupidest crap you could ever imagine everyday,all day from stupid customers.Guess why I'm no longer allowed to talk to customers,never did answer the phone as it is not my job.

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:50 pm

So, let me get this straight - had I brought one of my Jeeps to your Jeep dealership for regular maintenance or repairs at 55, 70 or 80 thousand miles - you would have recommended a cooling system flush and refill, even though the maint schedule didn't specify it until 100k miles?

Where have you been all my life? You're way smarter than all the mechanics at the 10+ dealerships that we've had our jeeps to in the last 192,000 combined miles

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:21 am

ColoCRDx2 wrote:

So, let me get this straight - had I brought one of my Jeeps to your Jeep dealership for regular maintenance or repairs at 55, 70 or 80 thousand miles - you would have recommended a cooling system flush and refill, even though the maint schedule didn't specify it until 100k miles?

Where have you been all my life? You're way smarter than all the mechanics at the 10+ dealerships that we've had our jeeps to in the last 192,000 combined miles

I would personally recommend it every 3 years or 50k,professionally I can not.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:27 am

In all seriousness, I'm at 92K in an 05, and I'm pretty sure most of my fluid is original. I had the thermo replaced and I think they just topped it off. If anything, I've been underheated in my Jeep. I will need to look into a full flush before summer.

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:16 am

Big Montana wrote:

In all seriousness, I'm at 92K in an 05, and I'm pretty sure most of my fluid is original. I had the thermo replaced and I think they just topped it off. If anything, I've been underheated in my Jeep. I will need to look into a full flush before summer.

I would suggest to anyone who's got tons of miles on their original coolant to do what I did - clean and backflush the heater core first, before having a full system flush. Run the output hose into a clean bucket. See what comes out. It'll give you an idea about what might be lurking in your radiator.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:29 am

But aren't we saying that you may have mixed coolant? Would we all be that bad?

ColoCRDx2 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:39 pm

Big Montana wrote:

But aren't we saying that you may have mixed coolant? Would we all be that bad?

Yes, I've come to the conclusion that somewhere down the line someone definitely topped off the system with the wrong coolant. The only thing we did bad was not pay more attention to who was adding misc fluids. I'm pretty sure now that it was probably done during an oil change at a Jiffy-Lube or Walmart.... which really stinks, because any time that we've had the oil changed at those type places - we've always supplied the proper oil, filter and drain plug wrench... just to make sure it was done right. We've usually changed the oil in both CRD's ourselves, but sometimes when on the road, we've had no choice. Who'd have thought this would happen?

We're going to monitor things much more closely in the future, and warning labels are already on the coolant tanks.

And - just to un-ruffle the feathers of any professional Jeep mechanics whom I may have offended:
Even though the parts manager and the service writer at my dealer had no idea about the approved Mopar radiator cleaner - I talked to a person in the lab that produces the three-part cooling system cleaner/treatment that they use (MOC Products), and their product is HOAT based, and therefore 100% compatible. Again - sorry if I pissed anyone off by stating that the dealer might have done it....

REALLY Dirty cooling system - should I flush, or not?

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