Timing belt replacement - South

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 4:21 pm

I'll order the tool then and bring it along with an air hammer. See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60588&p=672443&hilit=lisle#p672443 for some discussion of the tool and a rather cheesy no sound video. tjkj2002 reports good results out of many uses, presumably on CRDs and other vehicles. The tool doesn't get around needing to remove the shroud but it sure looks like it makes getting the fan off easy. In the mean time I think I'll take a look at the fan shroud and the mod. I could be wrong but it looks to me like one could make the cuts in the shroud without removing it using an unmounted hack saw blade and maybe a Dremel type tool with just a bit of care. I'm not too fond of the screws into plastic but the funky little trim clips that slide on from the side with a nut on the back would do the trick and be a bit stronger.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Ooh, I like the idea of the trim clips, I hadn't thought about those! They are cheap too, only a couple bucks in the parts store.

As for cutting while still on the engine.... I wouldn't. If you goof it up at all, its a $500 error wrecking your intercooler. No thanks for me, but maybe you are braver than I am.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 8:43 pm

geordi wrote:

I haven't returned my fan OR shroud to the engine bay since that job, and have not seen my temp gauge rise above dead center either. .

Well you better put it back because I sure realized I needed it recently.

I had removed mine awhile ago and the water light come on while I was 125 miles away from home traveling RT87 in the boondocks of upstate NY.

A slow drip from the heater hose drained the coolant tank and the temp gauge shot up to the red marks within seconds and it stayed there dangeraously for what seamed to me 1,000 minutes to me while I ran with an empty coke bottle to a nearby stream carrying back water dowsing the top of the engine closest to the turbo area.

The stream water was a God sent, becasue if it wasn't there, I might have possibly damaged the head. I searched for the nearest NAPA auto parts store in the area on my phone, which was 20 mimutes away to pick up Zerex antifreeze (HOAT) for the ride home.

I crawled there trying to keep the temp low.

There was no warning except for what sounded like 3 clock dings at first coming from the dash, and then the temp gauge shot way up past the red marks in less than a second. I pulled right over right by a cold stream on the side of the road.

Lesson learned:

1. Filling the coolant bottle with only water will not work for an extended period of time because it will not keep the temp low. The temperature guage will redline again within minutes of driving.

2. Keep a gallon of HOAT coolant in your tool kit along with a set of emergency tools, gorilla tape and a fuel filter.

3. Driving on long trips in a vehicle that few mechanics know anything about, it would be a wise thing to be prepared for the worst.

Racer

geordi · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 9:16 pm

You should look for the ultimate cause of the water leak, a slow leak would have given you a message and binging on the dashboard of "low coolant" as the sensor in the overflow bottle dried out.

This sounds like it leaked out a LOT faster, like from a popped hose. In the case of very low / no water in the system, the reading on the temp gauge is basically meaningless. The presence of steam heat in the coolant passages is capable of WILDLY over-temping that temp sensor, very very quickly. Thankfully, the reading on the gauge does NOT mean that the engine block is that temperature! The oil is STILL doing its job cooling and lubricating the moving parts, so you are in a bad place, but not as bad as if the engine heat-loads WITH the coolant in place and unable to remove that heat. THEN, you are really reaching the potential for damage.

I drove a 1983 Lincoln Town Car with a pinhole leak in the water system somewhere (couldn't find it at the time) for over 500 miles as an air-cooled engine. The engine was without water within 15 minutes of starting off on each trip during that time, and overheated once to the point of going 45mph with my foot on the floor... And slowing down. After I let it cool off from that, I filled it with water again and drove home - it was fine.

Why did it survive all of that? I credit the Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil I had in the engine, 100% for keeping it going. Would I do that to my CRD? HELL NO. I'm smarter now, but I've learned about engines through some tough experiences. Your CRD should be fine, but running without a fan (or with) did not help or hurt you in this case. The fan is USELESS if there isn't any water for it to cool, but it CAN cause the engine to run hotter b/c of the extra load.

I'm sure your electric fan was spinning happily trying to cool your engine down, but again... Without water, it isn't gonna happen. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to know how hot or not your engine is, since that temp sensor ALSO needs water to read accurately. Thanks for the warnings tho, it might help someone. So far we haven't had any really hot days here yet, so I haven't seen how the CRD will handle no engine fan in 95 degree + temps. Thus far, even in stop and go traffic it has been perfectly normal straight up.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 11:46 pm

I fixed the leak since, so all is well.

I wouldn't jeopardize running the vehicle without the fan though, because you never know when you might need it.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Planning time!!!!

Ok, here is where I am physically located.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.189633,-81.032903&spn=0.012421,0.027874&z=16

The city is actually "Hardeeville" or unincorporated Levy, in South Carolina. This is located 10 minutes from the downtown historic district of Savannah... Where they have bars, expensive hotels, and not one auto parts store.

The best collection of auto parts stores, hotels, food, Home Depot, Walmart, Camping World, etc. is actually just 15 miles away at I-95 in Pooler, Ga. Here's the link to that:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.121473,-81.240549&spn=0.049721,0.111494&z=14

There are two exits from I-95 in that link, 102 and 104. There is a Travellodge at 102, across from the Camping World, (that one has advertised like $30 a night) or on the West side of !-95 is a Comfort Suites that is like $85. There are several other hotels right in that area too, but those two are just the ones that I know the most about.
Food: Cracker Barrel is at 102, there are some other places nearby as well.

Auto Parts: About 2 miles west of 95 on 102 (Where the "Pooler Parkway" intersects) is an O'Reilleys Auto Parts, an AutoZone, and Advance Auto all within a block of each other. If you need Napa, it is between them and I-95.

Pooler Parkway connects back to I-95 at exit 104, where there is a Sams club (with diesel) a Walmart (without diesel) and a Home Depot for all your OTHER car part needs.

Getting to me the easy way:

From I-95 south of Savannah: Take I-16 East to Savannah, take the almost-last exit for the Talmadge Bridge / Louisville Road / Visitor's Center and then go OVER the Talmadge Bridge into South Carolina.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.079847,-81.102147&spn=0.024872,0.055747&z=15

Continue about 6 miles, then at the ONLY blinking light you will come to, turn RIGHT onto 315. It is also known as "Okatie Highway" but it is not marked as such.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.139426,-81.061935&spn=0.049712,0.111494&z=14

Continue about 4 more miles, the road will turn to the left, and you will see a sign for "RV PARK 200 Yards" on the right, then "RV ENTRANCE" that is Willow Bay Rd.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.185165,-81.027088&spn=0.024843,0.055747&z=15

In that last view, the road right where Google has the "Hardeeville RV" icon is Willow Bay Rd. That is my street. Follow Willow Bay Rd to the left from the entrance (parallel to 315) and look for a bright blinking traffic light by one of the RVs. That's your destination! (Yes, I own an actual traffic light, and it does work great!)

Now, about my setup - I will probably have us set everything up at the group shelter, where we can grill while we work, and there are restrooms available. The only reason for that is then there is more space to work than at my own site. You'll see when you get here, and it will be much more shaded at the shelter area. Power is available and I will have my compressor for any air tools (not that any are really needed for this job) and I have both an impact wrench and an air ratchet to help with pulling the bolts off.

I know we haven't discussed the subject of cost / donations to the help-a-starving-grad-student-fund yet, so I wanted to bring that up with this too. I have the special tools, and the experience of how to do this safely for your engine. I wasn't planning on doing the jobs myself, but that is a possibility if you are so inclined. I'm sure I will be getting just as dirty as everyone else... So I'm going to leave the subject open for you to decide. On my Jetta, I paid the guy who had the tools / knowledge $300 to remove and replace my injection pump, and reset the timing on the engine. This job is more involved just in GETTING to the belt, so if you want me to do the entire thing for you, rather than advise and instruct from the fender... I think $350 is fair, considering that you are bringing the vehicle here. But that is if I'm doing the whole job.

The tool rental from GDE is like $25, and I don't know what he sends for that, but I have the complete collection of special tools. To me, that is the range potentially. I'm not doing this for the money certainly, but I know I won't be working at all during the summer, and thus far... Have little chance of qualifying for unemployment either. So this is a case of "What do YOU feel this assistance is worth" that I'm leaving it up to you entirely. I want to protect these vehicles and keep them on the road too... But a guy has to eat, ya know?

As for food / drinks / charcoal here... I have a full bag of charcoal, as much ice as you could want, grills, tables, chairs, etc. If each of us picks an item to provide, we can have a decent meal working while these engines are apart. Lets use this thread to plan it so people are aware of where everyone is, how does that sound?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 4:00 pm

This is an overview map of the area, with icons properly located.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&vps=2&jsv=344a&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=206885621223581701336.000495d8aee3f7349a86e

Here's the directions from I-95 at exit 104. Its easier than it looks, I would suggest "driving" the route using Google Street View so you get an idea of what it looks like if you want to come this way. Going on I-16 (exit 99) from exit 102 / 104 is about 15 miles longer. I don't know if that matters to some people.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Home+Depot+%2F+Super+Walmart+%4032.142079,-81.244841&daddr=32.140047,-81.2252249+to:32.1412808,-81.206738+to:32.15517,-81.17566+to:Hardeevile+RV+Office+%4032.188298,-81.029996&geocode=Ff9y6gEdV00o-w%3BFQ9r6gEd-Jko-ykxkcfTY6H7iDHWsLeT3HPlgg%3BFeBv6gEdLuIo-ymF702GKqL7iDE-cpVZh6eKWw%3BFSKm6gEdlFsp-yk5XMNtEaL7iDGTqVysbgIc8w%3BFYon6wEdlJQr-w&hl=en&mra=dpe&mrsp=1&sz=15&via=1,2,3&sll=32.135211,-81.217289&sspn=0.024857,0.055747&ie=UTF8&z=15

Of course if any of these don't work or look understandable... LMK.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 5:14 pm

I'm in but not doing the timing belt at under 40K miles so my goal is 1) to watch/help out/learn how/swap knowledge and 2) while I'm there maybe pull my fan and install Kap's fixed fan and do the Aussie fan shroud mod for access. Plan to bring the Lisle pneumatic fan wrench set along with extra air hammer/impact wrench/ratchet (if needed can likely borrow and bring a pancake compressor); the cute little 10mm drain tool and ratchet; misc stuff to do the fan shroud mode for me and whomever else wants to do so; can bring hard copy of 2005 FSM and e copies of all else; digital camera for appropriate pictures. I can also bring a medium Igloo Ultra Cold cooler stocked with beverages of preference (PM preference). Am also happy to chip in on other gastric delights. As to the starving grad student donation my wife and I are already supporting stoutdog in that capacity but I'm happy to contribute to geordi's survive the summer pot.

For what it's worth it looks like there are ample lodging options at I-95 exits at Pooler/Louisville Rd (US 80), Agusta Rd (Hwy 21), or Hardeeville (US 17). For those that use GPS navigation devices the coordinates to the RV park entrance are 32 11 17.6N and 81 01 48.6W and with those coordinates punched in my Garmin routes me up from Florida and over the Talmadge Bridge (US 17) right to the RV park entrance but it looks like using the 104 exit (Airways Ave) would be quicker with less traffic.

One logistical suggestion. For those vehicles getting the timing belt done I assume we want to work on a cold engine not a nice hot one. With that in mind I'd think we would want to get those vehicles to the work site the afternoon before and leave them to start work the next am. With that in mind if we can coordinate on lodging I'd be happy to provide transportation to and from. Thoughts?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 27, 2011 8:37 pm

Papaindigo makes a good point about working on cool engines! If needed, I can do the shuttle thing too.

As for the duration of the job... I was a blind man doing it the first time, and without all the right tools (and a broken alternator mount) and I did it in about 8 hours over 3 days. Obviously it won't take anywhere NEAR that long this time, I'm figuring with multiple people working on these, and I'm moving from one to the next helping / pointing out, we should easily have the front cover disassembled after 2 hours. Then it is only a matter of doing the tricky stuff and reversing.

The variables are if people want to do water pumps... I haven't the foggiest how much time that would add to the job.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat May 28, 2011 4:38 pm

A few more thoughts. Page references are to the 2005 FSM hardcopy (NOTE Sir Sam's "e" copy is missing some diesel data in Section 7 hence the "e" page numbers are off in that section)

For those that are doing the timing belt it would be a good idea to check your air cleaner box to turbo hose to confirm that it's not torn down where it hooks onto the turbo. The tear occurs right at the hose clamp on the turbo so I'd recommend getting down in there to undo that clamp and actually pull the hose off to be sure. Sir Sam found his was torn when he did his timing belt. Would hate for someone to find a torn hose while doing the belt and either have to drive with it or wait a day or two for one to be delivered to a local dealer. Replacement cost is like $50-60 dealer.

I don't recall seeing a forum write-up on replacing the water pump so here is a shot at distilling what's in the 2005 FSM. 1) take all the steps needed to get the timing belt outer cover off; 2) probably would be a good idea to use a 6mm allen wrench to lock the lock the flywheel via the ATDC access hole (pg 9-242-243 although just locking both camshafts (pg 9-244) may be enough; 3) witness mark everything including fuel pump (Geordi - what do you recommend for marking? On my own I'd want something white like quick dry model paint or white out - NOTE apparently if step #2 is done most everything has a factory mark); 4) remove the 2 timing belt idler pulleys; 5) here is where it gets a tiny bit scary (hence my comment #2) remove the camshaft sprockets by removing the intake and exhaust camshaft alignment pins (NOTE 6/1 - others report leaving these pins in and just using the pins to hold the cams in place while still others use both the pins and the VM tool. In addition Justin Grow, a VW mechanic, did a CRD timing belt successfully with cam pins he machined himself and a counterhold tool from VW to hold the pulleys in place when locking them down
http://www.metalnerd.com/cat02.htm Part MN3036) and then loosening the camshaft gears using special tool VM 1085 (pg 9-252-253) to retain the gears when removing bolts. (Geordi - FSM says use tool VM 1085 which is the same as the camshaft locking tool - funny vaguely triangular thing with a handle in both GDE's and Sir Sam's post - apparently that can be used to lock the cams in place while installing the belt and/or lock them together in the same relative position while removing them); 6) remove timing belt tensioner (apparently just remove the bolt you have already loosened on the tensioner and pull the tensioner off); 7) remove timing belt inner cover bolts (pg 9-247 fig 159 implies just 3) ideally without damage to the cover seal behind the cover (#9 in the same figure) and remove the cover (NOTE Sir Sam reports at least one person was able to remove only the exhaust cam, passenger side, which allowed the cover to pivot forward enough to remove and install the water pump); 8th) remove water pump bolts per pg 7-60 and install new water pump (NOTE the water pump has 4 bolts but it also has 2 arms with bolt holes. Now I'm not much of a betting man and I cannot find a comment in the FSM but I'll bet the viscous heater attaches to those 2 arms. If so one needs to detach the 2 water lines from the viscous heater so it can come off with the old water pump and be reinstallled on the new one); and 9) reverse the procedure back to reinstalling the timing belt idler pulleys and complete the timing belt install.

Steps 2 + 4-9 are extra ones needed to do the water pump but they don't look too difficult or time consuming. One just has to be careful not to disturb the camshaft(s) and camshaft sprocket(s) postions while doing this.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat May 28, 2011 8:37 pm

I disagree about "not too difficult" on steps 4-9 for doing this. The fact that they designed the water pump BEHIND the dang inner cover, but couldn't make the inner cover in two pieces (there is no reason not to) so that the camshaft sprockets can remain ON mystifies me. It is a huge pain in the arse.

On the camshafts, the pins locate them at the proper 90 deg ATDC for all this, and when everything is set correctly, there are FACTORY witness marks painted red (and molded into the parts) that should all line up. The two camshaft sprocket marks point at each other, the fuel pump points at a witness on the cover, the bolt holes in the crankshaft are vertical, and the crankshaft has its own red mark.

I did try messing with the camshaft sprocket nut on mine, and I got NOWHERE with trying to loosen it to do the belt. The pins did NOT have the strength (nor did I want to stress them at all) to hold against whoever tightened those nuts. So if anyone else is planning on doing the water pump with this job... Unless you have a leak, please consider that your wish may add a half-day to the job, at least. I cannot estimate how long it will take to do that job, and I personally do not want to attempt it without a VERY good reason.

The lifespan of our waterpumps seems to be considerably more than the belt, as much as 200k miles. Maybe we will discover that there IS a way to get it off without pulling the inner cover (go in from behind with smaller tools?) but this is not a job for the faint-of-heart.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2011 7:55 am

It's certainly a pain in the you know what and a really stupid design but water pumps don't last forever. That said the CRD water pump seems to be a pretty simple design consisting of not much more than a housing, bearing, and impeller which suggests it would last a really long time although there is at least one report of one going bad (serious water leak) at 71,xxx. Right now I'm no where near the timing belt point and frankly don't know what I'll do regarding the water pump when the time comes. The only point of my post was to try to list the extra steps (e.g. beyond the ones needed to do a timing belt) needed to do the water pump; probably should not have expressed a totally uninformed opinion on the difficulty of those steps.

I have yet to locate torque figures on the camshaft sprockets but I can say that both the 2005 and 2006 FSMs say to remove the intake and exhaust camshaft alignment pins and then loosen the camshaft gears using special tool VM 1085 to retain the gears when removing bolts. So geordi is correct that the alignment pins are not designed to hold the camshafts in place while the sprockets are removed. I've edited my list of steps to reflect that.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:12 pm

It has now been just over a week since the last post in this thread, and far longer than that since either of the two members who needed their timing belts has joined this thread and commented about their plans.

As it is 12 days from the date we HAD planned on, with no indication whether anyone is actually interested in doing their timing belts... I am pulling the plug on the 18th. We can reschedule for some time later in the summer such as in July, but right now, this is not going to happen. I have a potential project starting sometime later in June (don't know when yet) but the complete lack of communication makes planning a meet impossible.

PapaIndigo, thanks for your info and assistance, I would be happy to continue talking about the fan shroud mod anytime. I think you have a good idea that I might try with mine.

Oh, and thanks, but I don't need that fan tool - My fan is not EVER going to be locked on there that tight again.

lgoodbar · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:05 am

Sorry about not confirming sooner... I just got back from work travel the past three weeks.
If you don't mind, Geordi, can we plan a meetup for July?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:41 am

I'm open with no substantive conflicts until 9/14-18.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:39 pm

Goodbar, I'm fine with pretty much anytime this summer. There is a possibility of a multi-camera project for a couple days sometime in July that I've heard about, but I don't know when yet. (I run camera for certain events, sound for film / TV projects, and more) So that might be the only sticky point.

I understand everyone has other stuff going on, I do too... Thats OK, and everybody has a different situation with life / finances / time available. Thats OK too. We just need to be in communication to make this work from so far away. I don't want to cost anyone any money from a blown trip or reservation, because something came up, but I usually don't get a lot of notice on my smaller projects (the events) so thats why I wanted to confirm everything with THIS, just in case that wanted to conflict I would know for certain.

My bigger confirmed projects aren't until the fall right now, so that leaves the summer open.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:12 pm

PM sent, assuming the forum actually sends it, to the original group.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:02 pm

Just so you know, I did see that PM to the group.

Timing belt replacement - South

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