Thinking about removing your FCV?

rotordriver · **Joined:** Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:35 pm **Posts:** 44

Hexus wrote:

Quote:

I mean, I have indeed seen some real forum know-it-all-but-nothings before in my 30 years of being online,

I really doubt you were connecting to ARPANET and and NSFNET back in the Mid 1980's, typically people who got online with DOS and UNIX have better typing and grammatical skills sir.

Commercial ISP's weren't even really available until the LATE 1980's, I know because I was there doing it.

Nice exaggeration though.

Ha, beat me to it.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:35 pm

If anyone has issue with my actual knowledge of the CRD and small diesels in general, I'd be happy to discuss that. Either privately or publicly, I don't care. I yam what I yam, and all that.

However, the usual reaction of someone faced with a differing opinion is not to fly off the handle and resort to a stream of exaggerations, profanity and name calling, then remove themselves from the discussion. That is the behavior of someone who simply was posting to generate a reaction. A forum troll.

I have been using computers since 1984, and been on computer networks since soon after Compuserve created a local node in South Florida where I was. I even still remember my original Compuserve user ID: 102457,33. darn that has been a long time. In all that time, I have seen many trolls. I stand by my characterization of your behavior. If you were trying to prove otherwise...

Methinks you doth protest, too much.

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

Boy, I really hope that this person actually follows through on their threat to never come back!

(Never seems to happen though - people always post again after their "last post ever" post)

Leeann · **Joined:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:19 pm **Posts:** 523

kd4pbs wrote:

I didn't catch the location, but I'd peg you for a yankee.

Admin: Please delete me from your user database. It is clear that few here know their booty from their head. If only you knew who I am and what I have contributed to the GMECM tuning crowd in the past with several "hacks" on GM ECM models and .bin's over the years, you'd actually know this is not a troll. That being said, I've grown weary over schooling stupid morons like you, and bid you a fine FU.
:seuss:

Now who's the arrogant censored word?

And good riddance.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:35 pm

I don't know about the run away stuff. I do know the FCV stays closed for the 10 to 15 seconds on shutdown. In my case , it made a significant difference on the shutdown behavior. When my original failed, it would buzz and grind for 10 or 15 seconds after engine shutdown and this was before the GDE had been installed. In cases where someone didn't notice a difference in shutdown on a CRD, the severity could be related to temperature. I ran mine broken for about a year up here in MI. During the warm months, the shutdown wasn't as violent. During the winters, it tended to run longer and be more violent; perhaps a difference in the density of the air charge. It's pretty rough on the motor mounts which are going to be more brittle during the winter months too.

Since the valve does stay closed 10 to 15 seconds, it would seem to me that this should be enough to stop a runaway that's happening. Unless the air flow being sucked into the engine is powerful enough to overcome the FCV closing and cause it to stay open a bit. I suppose one could sort of test this by revving the engine to a high rpm and shutting it down to see if there is any change in the abruptness...with the higher air flow, one may observe a delay, but there's going to be more inertia from the engine too. And the computer cuts fuel to engine during shutdown, so this won't be the same as having oil as part of the air charge. I'm not willing to pour oil in my intake to test this, so we're pretty much left with speculation.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

R2.0 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:23 pm

Wow, this takes me back. Classic Usenet troll: get on a board, come up with a "new" solution or idea that has been discussed before, continues to argue in the face of unanimous opposition, picks a particular poster to insult, makes a claim of superior authority which cannot be gainsaid and then promises to leave and take his valuable font of knowledge with him.

Unfortunately they never seem to actually go away. Just ban his IP and flush the thread.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:06 pm

Seems to hit most of the key features of our "guest" there... I stand by my assessment.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:05 pm

geordi wrote:

Seems to hit most of the key features of our "guest" there... I stand by my assessment.

I disagree. I think a lot of people here were really rude to him. You basically jumped down his throat in your first post in this thread. The tone of the post is just really aggressive.

That's not how I'm used to seeing newcomers treated on this board, and I've been here longer than any of you.

I'm not taking a position on the original supposition of the thread, for the simple fact that NOBODY HERE HAS TESTED IT. Why would you claim it as gospel truth unless you have tested it?

dieseldoesit · **Posted:** Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:22 am

CATCRD wrote:

geordi wrote:

Seems to hit most of the key features of our "guest" there... I stand by my assessment.

I disagree. I think a lot of people here were really rude to him. You basically jumped down his throat in your first post in this thread. The tone of the post is just really aggressive.

That's not how I'm used to seeing newcomers treated on this board, and I've been here longer than any of you.

I'm not taking a position on the original supposition of the thread, for the simple fact that NOBODY HERE HAS TESTED IT. Why would you claim it as gospel truth unless you have tested it?

I agree...

Edit, maybe I should have said, I agree with CATCRD in his disagreement.

Lots of hostility in this thread, a lot coming from the forum members..

kjjet · **Posted:** Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:51 am

XXX I agree. Give your opinion and the experience's you have had and if they want more information they will ask for it.

Some times there is no clear cut answer depending on how you maintain your Jeep.

My :2cents:

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:29 pm

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:31 pm

cevans wrote:

Boy, I really hope that this person actually follows through on their threat to never come back!

(Never seems to happen though - people always post again after their "last post ever" post)

As a rep for a company that has done a nice job of stocking spares and kits for the CRDs and looks to sell to members of this forum, it wouldn't seem like good business practice to jump on a new forum user and turn away a potential customer. His money would spend just as well as anyone's.

...same for Geordi in his side business of replacing timing belts. While the guy seems like the type to do his own, he may have friends that could have been referred to this forum and available services.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:57 pm

CatCRD - One of the unfortunate realities of text communications, is that nuance and tone cannot be reliably transmitted along with the wording. You said that my first post in this thread was very agressive and that I jumped down the guy's throat. I just went back and re-read every post in this thread, my own included.

Let me try and point this out, not being agressive or antagonistic in any way here: My first post was not (intended) as anything agressive or angry, I was endeavoring to simply state facts. I used the caps where I did simply for emphasis, as I have seen many times where forum codings do not process correctly (for reasons I do not understand) and bolds or color shifts get lost amid a crowd of unreadable and distracting code that displays inline with the actual text.

I did become "agressive" in my second post, pointing out what I believed to be someone posting simply to get a reaction. When Mr Newguy quoted sections of my post, and proceeded to ask questions that were not related with an obvious sarcasm emoticon; then suggested that I was "posting misinformation" stating that the FCV cannot be used to stop a runaway, directly contradicting his own assertion it can? I'm sorry... I didn't become agressive until that point, and the limit was that I suggested that the topic might have been a troll-for-reactions or simply didn't know what he thought he did about the CRD and its programming.

The result was HIS flying off the handle and amazing amount of name calling. If anyone wants to have a discussion about the programming and quality of the FCV and whether it can be modified with a manual activation button... That is fine. But I don't see where anyone was "jumping down his throat" until after he flew apart and threw a tantrum.

The other people that posted in this thread also showed a couple things: Other solutions to the potential problem, including just keeping the oil out of the intake in the first place. They also showed that they too saw something antagonistic in the posts from Mr Newguy, and responded in kind. Single me out if you must, but I wasn't the one who started the yelling.

One member did post about an actual runaway, and the FCV obviously didn't offer any solution to the problem, which bolsters what all of the respondents have basically agreed on: It is not for anything other than emissions control, which is why it is not programmed to be a safety device. Whether it can be programmed as a safety device is a separate discussion, but I agree with the others: The plastic gears that break probably would mean that the safety device programming wouldn't function properly anyway, the end result being the same: Failed engine. Keeping the oil out of the intake is the best solution, it works 100% of the time to prevent a runaway.

None of this post is typed agressive, and not one word of it is attacking anyone. If people are reading into this with emotional fervor... That is on their side of the screen, it isn't coming from my side. Have a happy Labor Day and be safe at your barbecues!

kjjet · **Posted:** Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:48 pm

More reality than anyone needs. SOMETIMES less is best. But that is not some peoples reality's!!

kd4pbs · **Posted:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Know-it-alls gonna know-it-all, as I've said in the 31-some years now since being online. First, Hexus and Rotodriver, I don't remember stating anything about being on ARPANET. I'm pretty sure I stated "being online". ARPANET is not the only online infrastructure that ever existed. There was Compuserve in the early 80s, of which I used a genuine acoustic coupler on my TRS-80 Model III to connect. Telenet and Tymenet were popular when communicating with vendors. Then there were the myriad of local BBSs that proliferated in those times. My first online experience was a Model 33 teletype, complete with acoustic coupler and punch tape storage, dialing into the state college VAX.
Now, on to the meat of my return and point of following up...
November of last year found me stuck along side the road with a ventilated block due to a ceramic glow plug tip refusing to leave the combustion chamber. So, I found a non-running CRD a state away from a dealer for less than $5K; the dealer's "mechanic" had diagnosed a bad CP3A. I figured I'd put a CP3A on there and swap it with the ventilated one. Firing up our trusty hot rodded '98 Dodge 2500 24V 6BT (almost 1000 Ft/lb on the dyno, of which must be stock since it's impossible for a "forum troll" to actually amass, share, and use information to modify and beef up) with U-Haul-It trailer in tow, I went for it, sight unseen. Even in it's non-running state, I verified that the engine would turn, it had compression on all four, and nothing seriously wrong with it. I purchased it on sight, and stopped by another former CRD owner's place on the way back to pick up a good short block with all the rotating mass. He thought he had a "hole in the piston" when taking it to a mechanic after accidentally filling with gasoline, but upon removal of the head, found that to not be the case. He had already swapped in a 3.7 and parted out much of the CRD equipment, but he still sold me the block and a CP3A for less than $500. I plan to take the good bits of the short block and my ventilated block, and rebuild it all to make an engine to swap back into the donor. Hopefully though, being the troll that I am, perhaps I will find the talent to do such a thing. :roll:

Several months later, I finally got around to the project of swapping. First thing's first; I wanted to find out exactly what the issue is on the donor. It took about 10 minutes... Some "mechanic" had swapped the connector for injector #4 with the fuel pressure regulator. My guess is that the dealer ran the fuel out of it, had his "mechanic" (his young nephew) work on it, and the "mechanic" figured he'd have to remove the injectors to bleed the air out of the system. This was evidenced by new tool marks on the injector hold down clamp bolts, as well as using a set of channel locks on the injector line nuts. I guess this "mechanic" has a great future in "mechanicin'".
So, she fired up after fixing these issues, and after letting her warm up and verifying everything was oki-doki, I decided to take her for a spin.
Here's where the purpose of my follow up comes in...
After driving down to the lake near my house, back up the road, and fully checking out the donor, I decided it was a good idea to introduce the bottom of the go pedal to the floor mat and see how well she ran. I lifted off once I hit the 35 MPH speed limit, and she didn't slow down like I expected. Sure enough, we have a runaway, which I thought was odd since the experts on this forum seem to believe that it can't happen. Not severe, but I had to stand on the brakes hard to slow down, but I did wrestle her to the side of the road. First gear, emergency brake pulled, standing on the brakes, belching blue smoke, what seemed like an eternity at full stall speed, and I reached for the key. As soon as the transmission disengaged from lack of power to the valve body, the revs sounded like they were approaching grenade limit, then some sputtering, and finally the revs dropped to zero. I doubt that one revolution was spent much above red line, and not one bit of damage to anything but the turbo oil seal (likely going bad to begin with, and at least a year of sitting didn't do it well). My only regret was not getting it on video for proof, and that Chrysler decided to put an all-electronic transmission in these.
Swapped the turbo from the old engine, changed the water pump and timing belt, (FAR easier with the engine sitting on an engine stand) put in some Etecno glow plugs, removed all EGR components, and dropped the engine in the "old" Liberty, and all is well.
Strange, since all the experts here contend that the FCV will not stop a runaway. I can't figure it. I've re-hashed it over and over. The only thing I can come up with is that the atmospheric conditions surrounding the turbo inlet at that point in time had a vast shortage of oxygen, because we all know from impressive, vast, well-known, and irrefutable knowledge contained within this forum that it couldn't be from the FCV closing off flow. :roll:

Now to rebuild the short block, find a good used turbo, slap it in the donor, and sell it for a profit.
I'll keep my FCV, thank you.

PS- Thanks, CATCRD, if they haven't chased you away as well... At least I know there is intelligent life on here.
Oh, and if I offended anyone with the "sensored", I don't give a "censored". The forum software mis-spelled it, chief, not me.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:11 pm

I hesitate to post to this thread due to some of the emotion contained in some of them. But one point I would like to point out is that you stated you have a built up 98 24 valve Dodge diesel. I too also have a built up 98 Dodge 24 valve diesel and it does not have any kind of valve between the turbo and the intake similar to the FCV on a CRD which somewhat negates your reasoning for having one. None of the early non ERG Dodge Cummins that I am aware of ever came from the factory with any such devise. :roll:

I removed the FCV on my CRD as one of the first five purchasers of the Weeks elbow kit many months ago and I have not had any adverse problems by doing so. :wink:

I certainly do not claim be a expert on the CRD, but my understanding of the sole purpose of FCV on the CRD was to provide a low pressure zone in the intake at certain times to allow the engine to suck the exhaust gases from the EGR system into the intake and on to the combustion chambers. Like the Dodge, the CRD has no designed protection for overspeed other than fuel control by the OBC....

mass-hole · **Posted:** Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:46 am

Aside from the fact that I'm not even sure I would think fast enough to cycle my key instead of just throwing the transmission into neutral to prevent myself from flying off the road into some guys house(and thus allowing enough time for the engine to spin to 20 billion rpms anyways,) I would rather risk the very slim chance of a run-away and be able to use Weeks101 elbow kit than have to keep the FCV and horrific stock intake elbow. The elbow kit provides so many advantages in terms of convenience and simplicity its not even a question.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:01 am

mass-hole wrote:

I would rather risk the very slim chance of a run-away and be able to use Weeks101 elbow kit than have to keep the FCV and horrific stock intake elbow. The elbow kit provides so many advantages in terms of convenience and simplicity its not even a question.

I think most on this list would tend to agree with your statement including myself! :wink:

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:36 pm

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:13 pm

but at the risk of getting flamed I don't recall anyone saying a runaway was impossible on a KJ CRD. In fact the are at least a couple of posts about runaways occurring. Rather the debate has been to what extent if any the flow control valve can stop a runaway.

A true diesel engine runaway is base on the intake "inhaling" a combustible fuel from at atmospheric source (uncommon) or a source internal to the engine such as excess piston blow by being recycled to the intake via the crankcase vent system or a turbo oil supply failure that sends oil directly to the intake system. The latter certainly could cause a runaway but to the extent I recall turbo destruction posts I don't recall a runaway rather the ones I recall involve massive exhaust smoke clouds and lots of oil on the ground from the end of the tailpipe.

I will note that a "false" runaway can be caused by a sticky go pedal (see viewtopic.php?f=98&t=76222). If one pressed the go pedal all the way to the floor and it did not return properly the exact same symptoms would occur.

In the case of a true runaway the only fix that I know of is one that shuts off the air supply otherwise it will stop only when the inhaled fuel is exhausted or the engine destructs. In the case of the sticky go pedal put the tip of you shoe under the pedal and pull up.

Thinking about removing your FCV?

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