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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:01 pm 
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THANKS! - I believe winter fuel is in place here in Denver.
I am also using a fuel additive; opti-lube.
ALL belts and rollers changed + waterpump - 2000$+ later
oil + coolant changed/flushed.

is the thermostat housing hard to get at??
Doesn't feel as if my brakes are dragging - something I would notice upon coming to a stop or roll.
My jeep is garaged, but it's just as cold in there.
ALL alignment is fresh - tires are almost new..

Guess I am just used to gas run cars - gas is better run at coolest possible. Seems diesel performance is hurt by 'cool'.

..just thought 13mpg was terribly bad considering most will see 25/35 - from what I read.
17MPG off is a drastic difference and would indicate something is terribly wrong, broken or clogged.
This jeep runs too well to have something that terribly off.. ..and nothing I can tell is terribly off - performance wise.

dw




papaindigo wrote:
Just to kind of list things that an hit mpg in one place and assuming your new ride has already had a DOCUMENTED timing belt job done, may have been mentioned in the list but I did not notice.
1. winter fuel - I've seen mention of a 10% mpg hit or more especially without using a winter fuel treatment like the appropriate PowerService.
2. bad thermostat and yours is bad - I've personally seen at least a 10%+ mpg hit
3. dragging front brakes - another 10-20% mpg hit. Easy to check - with cold Jeep on level or slight slope does it roll easily? After a brief drive with essentially no brake use are the wheels/rotor really hot, be careful when checking.
4. viscous heater until engine is warm might cost 1mpg.
5. cold weather and short drives (e.g. anything under say 15 miles even with a functional tstat) - I've seen a hit of 3-4mpg
6. cold drive train fluids - for example tranny won't shift into higher gears at all unless tranny fluid is above a set temp.
That's not to mention tire pressure, wind, and terrain.

I'm assuming your mpg is based on hand calculation and a GPS correction of odometer reading as the EVIC is notorious for being off but usually on the high side and odometer can be +-5% with stock tires and still meet spec.

Personally I would avoid the inline tstat option but it's ok for short term use.

If you haven't done anything about the tstat by the end of March you can have my used OEM (14k miles) for the cost of shipping. Stoutdog gets the TDF one and I get Kap's from stoutdog.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:11 pm 
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dr5chrome wrote:
..wow :shock: , 480.. Seems like an inline might not be safe either. Id rather not risk it.


Yeah, it's a fair chunk of change and who wants to pay 5%-10% of the value of a vehicle for a thermostat :roll:. Wise choice with the inline. The good news is that the OE replacement costs about $100 from a number of online dealers and should last you a fair while. Mine went for 4 years/45K miles which I think is fairly typical. At that rate the TDF replacement would never pay for itself though it is a work of art 8). A higher temperature "may" be beneficial but not critical. The main aim at the moment would be to get it up to the design operating temperature. Replacement is an easy DIY job and should get you back a few of these lost mpg.

You can check my fuelly to see the impact seasonal temperature variation has on my fuel economy. It's not unusual to go below -25C during winter.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:15 pm 
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Replacing the OEM tstat with another OEM or TDFs is pretty easy see viewtopic.php?f=98&t=64568 . Be sure to use HOAT antifreeze.

Another comment on your mpg. In the real world with a GDE tune and a relatively light foot and keeping it around 1800 rpm on the highway (that's ca. 62mph and if you have the F-37 transmission tune that means you have to run up to ca. 65mph to get into the highest gear and OD then drop back to 62mph) and warm weather and none of the mentioned problems your actual mpg (GPS corrected and hand calculated) will be more like 23-24 in town (that's based on a relatively level, average speed 25mph, 10 mile in town commute) and 32mpg on the highway (that's based on a round trip from Tallahassee to DC and back) mostly Interstate except in SE GA. Yes I've hit 25 and 35 respectively but I've also hit 21 and 29 respectively and as low as 18 on the highway towing a heavy bad aerodynamic flat bed trailer. With a bad tstat alone in the summer in Tallahassee in town I with the GDE tune I ran more like 21 mpg consistently.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:14 pm 
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dr5chrome wrote:
I can tell you that this jeep does run very cool, even if its been running a while. I thought this was normal. Of the 4 sections on the temp gauge I have never seen the temp go higher than the middle of the "1st section". It also can take 4~5 miles before I get any heat from the heater. Is changing the thermostat difficult?? would you say it was sticking or not working?? Do I have to take off 1/2 the engine to get at it? This engine does run very cool.

A failed (stick open) thermostat will absolutely devastate your MPG. Think about it, your engine cannot get up to temp to where it is designed to operate efficiently. All of the other factors mentioned are valid, but this one is guaranteed to cause poor MPG.

If money is tight and you need a $10 band-aid option, see the link below. Install into the upper radiator hose with the "bulb" facing the engine as close to the inlet as possible. Then calculate your MPG over the course of a full tank of fuel and see how it compares.

Stant 13519 Thermostat - 195 Degrees Fahrenheit

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:21 pm 
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weeks101 wrote:
dr5chrome wrote:
I can tell you that this jeep does run very cool, even if its been running a while. I thought this was normal. Of the 4 sections on the temp gauge I have never seen the temp go higher than the middle of the "1st section". It also can take 4~5 miles before I get any heat from the heater. Is changing the thermostat difficult?? would you say it was sticking or not working?? Do I have to take off 1/2 the engine to get at it? This engine does run very cool.

A failed (stick open) thermostat will absolutely devastate your MPG. Think about it, your engine cannot get up to temp to where it is designed to operate efficiently. All of the other factors mentioned are valid, but this one is guaranteed to cause poor MPG.

If money is tight and you need a $10 band-aid option, see the link below. Install into the upper radiator hose with the "bulb" facing the engine as close to the inlet as possible. Then calculate your MPG over the course of a full tank of fuel and see how it compares.

Stant 13519 Thermostat - 195 Degrees Fahrenheit

Image


That $10 band aid could cost an $1800 head. :dead:

Just buy the TDF tstat and let me know how it works out, or get the OE and save yourself the pain of a warped head.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:36 pm 
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yeah, if you do use the band aid, make sure you drill a tiny (about 1/16 should do) hole in it if possible (not sure with that style as I have the big clam shell inline in mine that houses a regular stat), as that will help with hot spots, but you could get unlucky...

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:49 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
Correct - low to really low ambients can result in reduced fuel economy
- low temp air is dense air - dense air is more difficult to pump\compress, which results in more power lost to overhead
- tailpipe emission would appear normal as engine is actually burning the excess fuel to maintain function
- can also result in incomplete combustion with less BTU per injected volume = reduced power = more fuel consumed per volume of work
- tailpipe emission ranging from white vapors, where fuel did not reach combustion temperature, to gray to black haze, where fuel reached combustion temperature but flame went out are also normal during winter climes

This is where it would be better to have a steel air filter case with temperature-controlled valved ducting over to an exhaust pipe stove, such that intake air would be preheated in winter ambients, resulting in reduced pumping effort and improved fuel economy

Just curious, so why do they pump the incoming air through an intercooler heat exchanger??? Kinda seems counter productive??? :roll:

Also, I am getting 24-27 miles per gallon consistently this winter on short hops to work (less than 5 miles) and short around town driving with no road miles. I do not have a GED tune; I am running a Yeti tune thankfully.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:41 pm 
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The CAC is intended for those climes where ambients are 100* and charge air is 250*^

Ambient temps below 30* also make the turbocharger work harder where the compressor blades are cutting thicker air - takes more power to make Boost in low temps

Pulling intake air across a stove would ease engine overhead in low temperatures, similar to CUMMINS intake air heater, which, if you observe the ammeter\voltmeter, you can see that intake heater cycles quite often after engine starts and is running - and, their CAC is much larger than the KJ's

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:38 pm 
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Mountainman wrote:
yeah, if you do use the band aid, make sure you drill a tiny (about 1/16 should do) hole in it if possible (not sure with that style as I have the big clam shell inline in mine that houses a regular stat), as that will help with hot spots, but you could get unlucky...


After you drill the hole and mount it in the radiator hose, be sure that the hole is in the 12 o clock position. This is better for allowing air bubbles to pass through.
And if you are really paranoid about it, drill two holes. One at 12 and one at 6 o clock.

I too use the Meziere in line thermostst housing because it uses a very common chevy 350 thermostat.
Just be aware that not all thermostats are created equal. Given any 195 deg F thermostat, some will open at 190, some at 200. Plus or minus 5 deg is normal, unfortunately.

Disclaimer.
I am currently repairing my head gasket although I believe it is un related to my choice of thermostat.
Careful monitoring of my engine temperature has shown that it never got above 205F which is normal.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:54 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
Pulling intake air across a stove would ease engine overhead in low temperatures, similar to CUMMINS intake air heater, which, if you observe the ammeter\voltmeter, you can see that intake heater cycles quite often after engine starts and is running - and, their CAC is much larger than the KJ's

As the owner of a Dodge Cummins, you are most correct sir, the intake heater will cycle on and off quite a few times to keep that air temperature heated till the motor heats up. Volt meter drops and lights dim every time it cycles on...must be pulling quite a few amps? :shock:
A very good case indeed for an inline air heater on our CRD's as Weeks proposed if it could be set up to be controlled based on inlet air temperature like the Dodge... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:24 pm 
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DO NOT take your fan off in Denver. I've worked on probably close to 30 CRD's now. Every time there's one with a stock fan clutch, they can't make it 5 minutes up I70 past 470 without starting to overheat. Obviously, the fan clutch is bad, but the fan is still spinning at least somewhat. Definitely replace that thermostat


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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:03 pm 
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I have ordered a new thermostat. Ive been told to stay away from anything 'Crown', so I ordered the mopar - 100$. Will put it in as soon as it comes. [online, 100$ - at the dealer 175$ ..that doesn't make sense.] Would have liked to try the TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK therm, but I dont have 500$ to spend on a thermostat, unfortunately.

might take 5 days to get the Mopar, so Ill have to drive it as is for now.

regards, dw

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:12 pm 
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I would say you are losing at least 3-4 MPG due to a particularly bad thermostat. Also, you are losing another 3 MPG due to the viscous heater running continuously. This is due to the coolant never reaching the temp at which the ECU shuts it off. It is not very efficient in raising coolant temp. I would remove the relay until you replace the thermostat. Too risky to run in line thermo if you tow ANYTHING.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:17 pm 
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that reminds me, there's a semi recent post on here of a guy who made an old thermostat housing to where you can actually change the stat (a really old thread of Kaps stat also), but anyhow, if you can run a dremel, a hack saw, and a few other tools. You could take your old one and fabricate it to where you can take the top off and change the stat. I think you need to get one small piece machined. Would be pretty cost effective, and you could have it done by the time your new stock one fails in 30-45k miles...

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - mileage??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:51 pm 
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..at least I wont over heat :roll:

Since I have the GDE tune, would it not be wise to pull any relays?
which relay should I pull if so? [what # relay].

I will be towing a small trailer this weekend [13']

dw

ps: what is the spec for the thermostat in this engine? [@ what temp is it supposed to open?]

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:51 am 
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Like I said, viscous heater relay in your fuse box. No problem with GDE tune, but put it back in when you have installed a new thermostat.

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:08 am 
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Pulling relay #R-36 in the power distribution center (plastic box in front of battery - be careful as lid can break if it's cold and it's a bit finicky to open/close) will disable viscous heater. Mine has been unplugged for ages. Stoutdog, in NE now, reports that he plugged his back in this winter and gets cabin heat "slightly" early than if unplugged, has fully functional thermostat, but other than that no benefit. Pulling the viscous will set a readable B10B3 fault code but that will not activate a MIL/CEL.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:39 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
The CAC is intended for those climes where ambients are 100* and charge air is 250*^

Ambient temps below 30* also make the turbocharger work harder where the compressor blades are cutting thicker air - takes more power to make Boost in low temps

Pulling intake air across a stove would ease engine overhead in low temperatures, similar to CUMMINS intake air heater, which, if you observe the ammeter\voltmeter, you can see that intake heater cycles quite often after engine starts and is running - and, their CAC is much larger than the KJ's


When I owned a 2001 FL50 with the ISB, just like you said, that intake heater did a lot of cycling on a cold starts, and this rig had a big CAC and all the other cooling components were big as well.

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:43 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Mountainman wrote:

Disclaimer.
I am currently repairing my head gasket although I believe it is un related to my choice of thermostat.
Careful monitoring of my engine temperature has shown that it never got above 205F which is normal.


Any warpage on the exhaust side?

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 Post subject: Re: poor than poor - GDE??
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:18 pm 
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flman wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Mountainman wrote:

Disclaimer.
I am currently repairing my head gasket although I believe it is un related to my choice of thermostat.
Careful monitoring of my engine temperature has shown that it never got above 205F which is normal.


Any warpage on the exhaust side?


Cant really tell for sure.
It looks to me that the head gasket leaked between cyl 2 and 3 on the intake side.
Although all 4 cylinders has evidence of water in them.

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