Cooling issues, Meltdown temp then back to normal

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:58 am

xhizzous wrote:

flman wrote:

Sounds like a HG leak, I recall mine would do all kinds of weird spikes and drops in the temperature that did not even make sense according to the load on the engine. When combustion gas was going passed the temp sensor instead of coolant, the sensor would drop in temp, while the engine is actually overheating more.

Are you loosing fluid through the weep hole at the back on the recovery bottle? Is your cooling system still pressurized after you allow it to cool down overnight? Are you loosing cabin heat under heavy acceleration?

Its never got hot before like this. its had the mystery leak for the better part of a year at least. I am for sure loosing stuff through the weep hole at the back of the recovery bottle. It blasts pressure into the insulation on the firewall, although I usually don't see it forcing liquid out.

The cooling system will remain pressurized even after sitting for 2 days without being turned on. I have not noticed it loosing cabin heat under acceleration or any other activity.

I'll pop a new thermostat in it I guess, at least that is easy with the redesigned thermostat housing.

Nothing will cure it but a new head gasket and maybe even a new head now that you have overheated it. Been their done that, anything else you do is wishful thinking.
Only one thing that can pressurize the system with out allowing it to relieve the pressure is a head gasket, pressure can go out, back it wont go back in.

Besides what is that HDS thermostat you said you put in?

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:00 am

xhizzous wrote:

flman wrote:

Sounds like a HG leak, I recall mine would do all kinds of weird spikes and drops in the temperature that did not even make sense according to the load on the engine. When combustion gas was going passed the temp sensor instead of coolant, the sensor would drop in temp, while the engine is actually overheating more.

Are you loosing fluid through the weep hole at the back on the recovery bottle? Is your cooling system still pressurized after you allow it to cool down overnight? Are you loosing cabin heat under heavy acceleration?

Its never got hot before like this. its had the mystery leak for the better part of a year at least. I am for sure loosing stuff through the weep hole at the back of the recovery bottle. It blasts pressure into the insulation on the firewall, although I usually don't see it forcing liquid out.

The cooling system will remain pressurized even after sitting for 2 days without being turned on. I have not noticed it loosing cabin heat under acceleration or any other activity.

I'll pop a new thermostat in it I guess, at least that is easy with the redesigned thermostat housing.

Nothing will cure it but a new head gasket and maybe even a new head now that you have overheated it. Been their done that, anything else you do is wishful thinking.
Only one thing that can pressurize the system with out allowing it to relieve the pressure is a head gasket, pressure can go out, back it wont go back in.

Besides what is that HDS thermostat you said you put in?

BTW, I may be the very first one on this forum to have the same symptoms as you, because I was on my own when I had similar problems.

Here you are, no one had a clue what was happening.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77168&hilit=heater+core

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:28 am

The leak would seem to be small, or at least has always been in the past. I have been driving it around for the better part of a year trying to figure this out. It has been on several long trips during that time and Never had an overheating problem before this.

It did have a functioning inline Thermostat and a failed OEM thermostat that it has been running on for at least a year. I installed a redesigned thermostat that uses a standard style Changeable thermostat insert.

My coolant pressurization/leaking problem was happening Long before that was ever installed, pretty much the entire time I have owned the jeep. Maybe it had an issue even before the ARPs and the ARP's have been saving it for this long.

I will perform the test you recommended and post results when I get home from work today geordi.

I thought it might be possible that the EGR Cooler could contribute to this, and or be the problem Yanking that and eliminating it would be a lot better than having to pull the head. I do hope a new head will not be required. I might be able to afford to do a head gasket job.. but probably not a new head. At least idparts has them should that be the case.

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:13 am

xhizzous wrote:

The leak would seem to be small, or at least has always been in the past. I have been driving it around for the better part of a year trying to figure this out. It has been on several long trips during that time and Never had an overheating problem before this.

It did have a functioning inline Thermostat and a failed OEM thermostat that it has been running on for at least a year. I installed a redesigned thermostat that uses a standard style Changeable thermostat insert.

My coolant pressurization/leaking problem was happening Long before that was ever installed, pretty much the entire time I have owned the jeep. Maybe it had an issue even before the ARPs and the ARP's have been saving it for this long.

I will perform the test you recommended and post results when I get home from work today geordi.

I thought it might be possible that the EGR Cooler could contribute to this, and or be the problem Yanking that and eliminating it would be a lot better than having to pull the head. I do hope a new head will not be required. I might be able to afford to do a head gasket job.. but probably not a new head. At least idparts has them should that be the case.

VM Specialists has heads for about $600 shippied from the England. They are take offs from test engines in like new condition. That is the route I took, just get the rest of the parts in the US, as they sent me the wrong HG and returning to England can be a pain.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:16 am

flman wrote:

xhizzous wrote:

The leak would seem to be small, or at least has always been in the past. I have been driving it around for the better part of a year trying to figure this out. It has been on several long trips during that time and Never had an overheating problem before this.

It did have a functioning inline Thermostat and a failed OEM thermostat that it has been running on for at least a year. I installed a redesigned thermostat that uses a standard style Changeable thermostat insert.

My coolant pressurization/leaking problem was happening Long before that was ever installed, pretty much the entire time I have owned the jeep. Maybe it had an issue even before the ARPs and the ARP's have been saving it for this long.

I will perform the test you recommended and post results when I get home from work today geordi.

I thought it might be possible that the EGR Cooler could contribute to this, and or be the problem Yanking that and eliminating it would be a lot better than having to pull the head. I do hope a new head will not be required. I might be able to afford to do a head gasket job.. but probably not a new head. At least idparts has them should that be the case.

VM Specialists has heads for about $600 shippied from the England. They are take offs from test engines in like new condition. That is the route I took, just get the rest of the parts in the US, as they sent me the wrong HG and returning to England can be a pain.

That is a bit better for head price. I can swing $600 .. not almost $1800
how did you get a hold of them? and can they ship to a residential address inside the US or does it have to be a business address?

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:44 am

xhizzous wrote:

That is a bit better for head price. I can swing $600 .. not almost $1800
how did you get a hold of them? and can they ship to a residential address inside the US or does it have to be a business address?

http://www.vmdieselspecialist.com/

They will ship to any address, George is the head man there, but they wont take PayPal, best is to use a money order or wire funds for fastest service.

Actually looks like they are accepting PayPal again?

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:53 am

flman wrote:

http://www.vmdieselspecialist.com/

They will ship to any address, George is the head man there, but they wont take PayPal, best is to use a money order or wire funds for fastest service.

Actually looks like they are accepting PayPal again?

I submitted a request for a quote to see what they say.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:42 pm

flman wrote:

xhizzous wrote:

That is a bit better for head price. I can swing $600 .. not almost $1800
how did you get a hold of them? and can they ship to a residential address inside the US or does it have to be a business address?

http://www.vmdieselspecialist.com/

They will ship to any address, George is the head man there, but they wont take PayPal, best is to use a money order or wire funds for fastest service.

Actually looks like they are accepting PayPal again?

I was able to talk them into using my credit card. I did have to call the bank and pre authorize it though.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

"It did have a functioning inline Thermostat and a failed OEM thermostat that it has been running on for at least a year. I installed a redesigned thermostat that uses a standard style Changeable thermostat insert."

xhizzous: This is what caused your head gasket failure... it is indeed too bad that you got my thermostat installed too late to make any difference.

"Besides what is that HDS thermostat you said you put in?"

flman: The Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly is my product, and the only viable aftermarket upgrade for the cold running CRD engine problem available today.

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:52 pm

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

"It did have a functioning inline Thermostat and a failed OEM thermostat that it has been running on for at least a year. I installed a redesigned thermostat that uses a standard style Changeable thermostat insert."

xhizzous: This is what caused your head gasket failure... it is indeed too bad that you got my thermostat installed too late to make any difference.

"Besides what is that HDS thermostat you said you put in?"

flman: The Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly is my product, and the only viable aftermarket upgrade for the cold running CRD engine problem available today.

Thanks, I fell out of the picture for a while and did not catch on to the new name. I thought it was TDF tstats?

Any ways my OE ones are capable of getting to normal if I do not run the heat, or run it after it has warmed up. Will you tstats bring the needle to straight up on a cold engine with the heater running? And how long does it take to achieve this at 20 degrees at 45 to 50 MPH?

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:57 pm

Yep, the Inline thermostat/failed OEM was installed and operating in the jeep when I purchased it.

Hey, Id rather have this problem while my 06 seems to be functioning fine.. as well as close to home. I plan on performing Geordi's test when I get home and see what it shows. Also Going to Pick up another Thermostat Insert to see if it changes anything at least that's an easy change now as well

Good to add to the spare parts inventory I have.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:01 pm

flman wrote:

Thanks, I fell out of the picture for a while and did not catch on to the new name. I thought it was TDF tstats?

Any ways my OE ones are capable of getting to normal if I do not run the heat, or run it after it has warmed up. Will you tstats bring the needle to straight up on a cold engine with the heater running? And how long does it take to achieve this at 20 degrees at 45 to 50 MPH?

Mine heats up very nice and very quick, but there might be other reasons for my rapid heating :ROTFL:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

flman wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

"It did have a functioning inline Thermostat and a failed OEM thermostat that it has been running on for at least a year. I installed a redesigned thermostat that uses a standard style Changeable thermostat insert."

xhizzous: This is what caused your head gasket failure... it is indeed too bad that you got my thermostat installed too late to make any difference.

"Besides what is that HDS thermostat you said you put in?"

flman: The Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly is my product, and the only viable aftermarket upgrade for the cold running CRD engine problem available today.

Thanks, I fell out of the picture for a while and did not catch on to the new name. I thought it was TDF tstats?

Any ways my OE ones are capable of getting to normal if I do not run the heat, or run it after it has warmed up. Will you tstats bring the needle to straight up on a cold engine with the heater running? And how long does it take to achieve this at 20 degrees at 45 to 50 MPH?

People probably called it the TDF thermostat because of my Username. It is actually the H.D.S. Model 001.

There is misinformation out in CRD land that the O.E. engine temperature gauge is accurate... it is most definitely not. The O.E. gauge is not linear in its measurement, and it can not be trusted. Even a brand new O.E. thermostat does not have the appropriate opening temperature for your CRD, especially in cold weather.

I ship the Model 001 out completely assembled and ready to install on your CRD engine with a 203 degree thermostat valve already installed inside. It will get your engine up to proper operating temperature even in the coldest weather.

The main reasons I developed the Model 001 is as follows, number 1 being the most important...

1) The O.E. thermostat assembly is set to open at 176 degrees Fahrenheit. This is far too low for proper operation of a modern diesel engine, especially one with pollution control systems on it. The best reason I heard why they did this was V.M. Motori was forced to try and fight NOX, (Oxides of Nitrogen), pollution for the new pollution standards that were coming in 10 years ago. The problem with this is that the low engine temperature is one of the main reasons for the following...

A) ...a poorly performing exhaust gas recirculation system and crankcase ventilation system. Both of these systems require the engine to be HOT to have a chance at working properly. If the engine is running cool, these outdated and badly conceived systems cause the engine to fail on a consistent basis with completely clogged out intake tracts.

B) ...a cool running engine - especially a diesel engine - uses more fuel, has more reliability issues and performs poorly. Diesel engines must run HOT, (about 200 degrees), to be most efficient. In the case of the CRD, if the engine is running too low, the viscous heater is engaged more often. This causes parasitic drag on the engine, much like running your air conditioning all of the time.

2) The entire O.E. thermostat assembly must be replaced when changing thermostats on the CRD. This is an excellent example of proprietary technology, where the manufacturer designs a part in such a way that the aftermarket will not bother to copy it because it is too expensive to do so. The vehicle owner is then forced to go to the authorized dealer to purchase another official O.E. part at over-inflated prices. I designed the Model 001 with a removable cap to be serviceable, and therefore inexpensive to replace thermostat valves. The valve I have chosen was in consultation with a Stant engineer, who helped me choose a thermostat valve, (the valve used in the Chrysler Hemi V-8 line of gasoline engines), that was...

A) ... commonly available.

B) ... will be made for many years to come.

C) ... is larger for better hot weather/heavy load performance.

D) ... is available in two or three hotter opening temperatures so the customer has a choice in what he or she chooses.

flman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:02 pm

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

People probably called it the TDF thermostat because of my Username. It is actually the H.D.S. Model 001.

There is misinformation out in CRD land that the O.E. engine temperature gauge is accurate... it is most definitely not. The O.E. gauge is not linear in its measurement, and it can not be trusted. Even a brand new O.E. thermostat does not have the appropriate opening temperature for your CRD, especially in cold weather.

I ship the Model 001 out completely assembled and ready to install on your CRD engine with a 203 degree thermostat valve already installed inside. It will get your engine up to proper operating temperature even in the coldest weather.

The main reasons I developed the Model 001 is as follows, number 1 being the most important...

1) The O.E. thermostat assembly is set to open at 176 degrees Fahrenheit. This is far too low for proper operation of a modern diesel engine, especially one with pollution control systems on it. The best reason I heard why they did this was V.M. Motori was forced to try and fight NOX, (Oxides of Nitrogen), pollution for the new pollution standards that were coming in 10 years ago. The problem with this is that the low engine temperature is one of the main reasons for the following...

A) ...a poorly performing exhaust gas recirculation system and crankcase ventilation system. Both of these systems require the engine to be HOT to have a chance at working properly. If the engine is running cool, these outdated and badly conceived systems cause the engine to fail on a consistent basis with completely clogged out intake tracts.

B) ...a cool running engine - especially a diesel engine - uses more fuel, has more reliability issues and performs poorly. Diesel engines must run HOT, (about 200 degrees), to be most efficient. In the case of the CRD, if the engine is running too low, the viscous heater is engaged more often. This causes parasitic drag on the engine, much like running your air conditioning all of the time.

2) The entire O.E. thermostat assembly must be replaced when changing thermostats on the CRD. This is an excellent example of proprietary technology, where the manufacturer designs a part in such a way that the aftermarket will not bother to copy it because it is too expensive to do so. The vehicle owner is then forced to go to the authorized dealer to purchase another official O.E. part at over-inflated prices. I designed the Model 001 with a removable cap to be serviceable, and therefore inexpensive to replace thermostat valves. The valve I have chosen was in consultation with a Stant engineer, who helped me choose a thermostat valve, (the valve used in the Chrysler Hemi V-8 line of gasoline engines), that was...

A) ... commonly available.

B) ... will be made for many years to come.

C) ... is larger for better hot weather/heavy load performance.

D) ... is available in two or three hotter opening temperatures so the customer has a choice in what he or she chooses.

Thanks for the info.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:28 pm

So went out to the garage and vented the coolant tank, There was pressure still in the system from Saturday when I parked it. I left the coolant cap off and popped the vent on the top of the radiator and let the air void on the top of the radiator out/ radiator fill with coolant to where there was no air.

I sealed it up and fired the jeep up and let it run about 5 minutes or so. Temp gauge stayed on cold the entire time and when I shut it down I popped the cap on the recovery bottle and .. no pressure release.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:45 pm

geordi wrote:

I'm curious about this... This sounds like a huge leak, and on one that I did ARP studs on?

I haven't looked at the video link yet (can't right now but should be able to tomorrow) but have you tried the cold engine test?

With a cold engine, open the cap to release any pressure that may be there. (Holding pressure can be completely normal, and doesn't by itself indicate anything at all)
Cap it back up, and run the engine for about 30 seconds to a minute. Not long enough for any coolant expansion to happen - so open the cap again. Pressure? Then there are two places for that to enter: The EGR cooler or the head gasket.

This is a laminated steel gasket, and unless the gasket was the wrong size originally (could be possible) and the liners are impacting the bottom of the head instead of allowing the gasket to compress... I cannot see where the ARP studs could have failed and you are now having a head gasket issue. I would be concerned about potential cracks in the head that went undiagnosed... But I would also suggest the two-hole gasket to allow for better clamping after the head is inspected for any cracking that could explain this leak. I don't normally lift the head when doing the ARP studs, so whatever was there before is retained, just compressed stronger. This has been successful on more than 20 CRDs thus far, so I am very curious what is happening in your case.

Yeah, based on Flash's experiences, sure sounds like a crack. Makes sense to me if you have a slightly warped head from uneven factory bolts, that there is a slight danger of cracking it when you clamp it down evenly with ARP's. If there is a crack, at least this is a low chance event. Still worth trying ARP's without lifting head IMO.

My condolences...

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:59 pm

Could it still be possible that its coming through the EGR Cooler. I noticed since I was walking around while it was idling there was a significant amount of moisture in the exhaust. Diesels don't usually do the whole fog thing on startup with moisture in the exhaust.. or do they?

It was doing it the entire time It idled. Its ~28 Degrees here right now

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:23 pm

xhizzous wrote:

Could it still be possible that its coming through the EGR Cooler. I noticed since I was walking around while it was idling there was a significant amount of moisture in the exhaust. Diesels don't usually do the whole fog thing on startup with moisture in the exhaust.. or do they?

It was doing it the entire time It idled. Its ~28 Degrees here right now

White, foggy smoke coming out of the exhaust?
Again, not a good sign.
Although diesel engines will sometimes blow white smoke after startup when cold, but that should quickly go away.

Easiest way I know to check for a leaky EGR cooler...
At the bottom port on the EGR valve that would normally feed into the intake elbow. Loosen the two screws that hold it closed and pull it open a bit.
If water comes out, the EGR cooler is leaking.

The definitive test for a blown head gasket or cracked head:
1. Use a cooling system pressure tester to pressurise the cooling system to 16psi
2. Remove all four glow plugs
3. Pull the ASD fuse so the engine will crank but not start
4. Crank the engine
5. If water comes out of any of the glow plug holes the head gasket is blown or the head is cracked

CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:16 pm

flman wrote:

Any ways my OE ones are capable of getting to normal if I do not run the heat, or run it after it has warmed up. Will you tstats bring the needle to straight up on a cold engine with the heater running? And how long does it take to achieve this at 20 degrees at 45 to 50 MPH?

In those conditions mine gets to full temperature in 4 to 5 miles, even with the heater running the whole time. Mine's been installed for a full year and I couldn't be happier with it.

I'm not sure why TDF is getting flak from a handful of people here. He really went out on a limb to make these and I'm guessing still hasn't turned a profit. I fully expect complex machined parts for a low-volume, out-of-production vehicle to be expensive, but I like to support vendors who support our community with unique offerings. If someone can machine their own serviceable thermostat from their factory one, then more power to them. I don't have the time or equipment.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:39 pm

CATCRD wrote:

flman wrote:

Any ways my OE ones are capable of getting to normal if I do not run the heat, or run it after it has warmed up. Will you tstats bring the needle to straight up on a cold engine with the heater running? And how long does it take to achieve this at 20 degrees at 45 to 50 MPH?

In those conditions mine gets to full temperature in 4 to 5 miles, even with the heater running the whole time. Mine's been installed for a full year and I couldn't be happier with it.

I'm not sure why TDF is getting flak from a handful of people here. He really went out on a limb to make these and I'm guessing still hasn't turned a profit. I fully expect complex machined parts for a low-volume, out-of-production vehicle to be expensive, but I like to support vendors who support our community with unique offerings. If someone can machine their own serviceable thermostat from their factory one, then more power to them. I don't have the time or equipment.

I love mine, it looks great and you can tell a lot of thought went into the design, I have 0 complaints about them. They're a great product.

I have purchased 2, One is installed and I am waiting for a good opportunity to put my 2nd one on my 06 Jeep. Now...probably after I get my 05 apart and back together. I would recommend to anyone planning on owning one of these jeeps for the long haul to definitely get one.

Cooling issues, Meltdown temp then back to normal

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