Patience Wearing Thin

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:44 am

retmil46 wrote:

Well, it's not bad Bio, haven't put anything into it except straight dino so far. filled up at a Marathon station after leaving the dealer, and topped off at a chevron station after getting home.

I'm not putting anything but straight dino in it for now. When i started using bio in the CRD, they were handing out a little flyer giving some FYI on bio. I remember the part where if your vehicle was made prior to the early 90's, some of the fuel hoses/components/seals were probably not rated to handle running bio, would soften them and cause them to fail. For now, I'm taking that warning seriously.

I ran B10 in my '83 and only fuel lines that were a problem were the fuel return lines and I replaced those without a problem, I had already replaced the black rubber lines that were on the car when I bought the car as they were leaking. The IP on the '87 MB will have no problem with WVO or B100. Matter of fact it took about 6 months before I needed to replace the fuel return lines, and I think it was the tank of B100 I ran that caused that to happen. I must say the MB sure loved the B100 and was whisper quite compared to the regular #2D when I used that stuff to drive it home from Memphis. The guy that has it now has been running it on WVO in the summer and home made B100 and #2D mix in winter in WI where he lives for the 1 1/2 years he has had the car.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:47 pm

AAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!!! :evil:

Not even 800 miles since picking it up from the dealer, and guess what?

CEL back on, belching black smoke on every accel, and fuel mileage going down the tubes.

Taking it by Advance in the AM to read the codes, but I already have a good idea what they'll be.

If it is the EGR again, then that's Strike 2 in my book.

Guess I'll be forced to drive the MB 300 D to work for a while :lol:

(Yeah, you can tell I'm just heartbroken at the prospect).

Danno · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:04 am

800 Miles is pretty good compared to what I got. I just got my EGR replaced and 5 miles after getting my CRD back from the dealer the CEL went back on! EGR Flow Control Valve got replaced that time. So far its been good for a bout 2 months since that.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:16 am

Danno wrote:

800 Miles is pretty good compared to what I got. I just got my EGR replaced and 5 miles after getting my CRD back from the dealer the CEL went back on! EGR Flow Control Valve got replaced that time. So far its been good for a bout 2 months since that.

Yep, my thoughts are it's the Flow Control Valve this time, to go again so soon. Problem will be convincing the tech to think beyond the computer and check it out.

Noticed the last 2 days before the CEL came back on, when I turned the key to the ON position and waited for all the warning lights to cycle off, you could hear what sounded like a faint whirring and clicking, as if coming from behind the dash, like a small electric motor cycling.

Tomorrow morning, I'll pop the hood before I turn the key, and see if the noise is actually coming from our prime suspect.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

CEL back on, belching black smoke on every accel, and fuel mileage going down the tubes.

Same here...except the CEL isn't on, only a P0401 code set. Belching black smoke, mileage down, power down, same symptoms as last time. I tried to clear the code, but it won't clear. This is the same P0401 code that Abernathy cleared and wrote "NTF" many weeks ago. The P0401 returned some time later but I continued to drive it as the CEL came on briefly and then went out. Prior egr failure the CEL was on continously. Finally had to take it in. It wouldn't break down, but it runs so badly now that I can't stand it anymore.

At first, the egr valve seemed to be stuck in the closed position - no smoke at all but that changed recently. I pulled the intake hose off and watched the EGR air control valve -its working properly, not stuck. Took it to a different dealer. Lets see if they clear the code and send me on my way next week.

luke warm · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:26 am

What is " NTF " ? Luke

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

NTF = No Trouble Found. In some cases, it can mean the tech doesn't want to mess with a problem and will clear the codes and send you on your way. They know from experience that there is a good chance you won't come back out of frustration. In my case, Abernathy was correct. I won't go back to them.

This kind of behavior isn't limited to auto repair - many, many years ago, right out of college, I had a job maintaining electronic communications systems and equipment in a telecom division. This included bench repair with some sosphicated test equipment. Certain employees I worked with did much the same thing that the tech at Abernathy did when certain known problem equipment kept failing and was extremely difficult to repair. They would put in a token effort, write NTF on the ticket, put it back in service and rest easy knowing that the next time it came back someone else would likely have to repair it. It is easy to know which failures are problem children because there is a repair history record available to trace and when repeated failures for the same symptom show up, its a red flag that something more than a replacement part is going to be required. Our vehicles have an extensive repair history available to any Jeep dealership who services them.

Some repair personnel quickly learn how to avoid the repairs that will take extended time to diagnose. I personally never did this - I stayed with it until I found the problem and sometimes it was an obscure field engineering update note to change components that were discovered by the design engineers to be causing a problem. Usually it was a design flaw - a design would work fine on the majority of systems, but due to manufacturering tolerances, and slight differences in mass assembly quality components, a certain number of units would sporadically fail. We called it running on the edge - running enough not to be a total failure, but poorly enough to be a problem. Troubleshooting them was difficult - but it can be done. The only thing that kept the design engineering people in the loop was the repeated failures and the calls back to the manufacturer with data on the issue - they have no way of knowing an issue exists unless that information reaches them.

luke warm · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:30 am

Thanks,

I'm an aircraft mechanic...we call it "CND", could not duplicate. Luke

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:00 pm

luke warm wrote:

Thanks,

I'm an aircraft mechanic...we call it "CND", could not duplicate. Luke

Nothing like having a CND then the aircraft fail to return or return with dangerous problem barely under control, might be kind of a personal bummer to think it could have been ones own fault. :shock:

I often wondered how subdrivers let skimmers work on some gear and big time on anything that penetrated the hull. I talked with one repair officer about that once, he was a bubblehead, and he didn't know how to answer me after I ask how they could pull the plug when some OM had been made to work around the clock on a weekend or holiday while the crew was off just to get a parapeep pulled out, repaired, reinstalled, so the boat can be ready to get underway Monday morning. :shock:

Hey I was just remember the old days Luke and not refering to you in anyway other then reminding of the same things that went on back in the day. One of those old retired remember the tough old days thing. :wink:

luke warm · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:23 pm

oldnavy,

No offence taken, In fact you are on target; it is a subject that is not taken lightly by most of my peers - from my experience at least. But now you know why the reliability thing is so big for me, I don't want to "have to" work on my car, and I prefer not to have anyone else do it when it's necessary. Major failures ( read: the kind that strand you somewhere ) are unacceptable IMHO these days, cars should be dependable. I know it happens, but I don't want to see "CND" or "NTF" if I go to a dealer's shop. Luke

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:53 pm

Stopped by Advance on the way to work today, and had them bring out the code scanner.

First 3 tries, the computer wouldn't let the scanner read the codes, saying "data link not established".

On the 4th try, it showed 2 instances of P 1267 being recorded. On the bottom of the screen it said "Manufacturer Controlled Fuel/Air Metering".

This sounds like the ECM programming is FUBAR, and it wouldn't show what was actually wrong because DC considers the programming info as proprietary.

Anyone else seen this code before, and if so, does it have a meaning other than my guess above?

Even if it's just a limited number of codes, the idea that on some of them I have no other choice than to go back to the dealer, just to find out WHY I have a CEL, much less what's actually wrong, has me throwing the BS flag.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

P1267 is a generic code that reads P0671 through P0674 on the dealers scan tool. This is what happened 2 days after my first egr was replaced. It means your glow plugs, being overutilized to keep the cylinder temperatures up when your egr put too much exhaust mixture into the engine, have now expired. Too much exhaust gas causes the cylinder burn temperature to be too low and the PCM dutifully turns on the gp's to try and raise it. Right up to the point where they die. Once they die, even with a good egr, the smoke at idle and until very warmed up is unbelievable. You can ohm out the glow plugs by disconnecting the connector just above the intake tube - good gp's are .5 to 1.5 ohms. One of mine was 167 ohms and one was open.

If your tech finds that replacing the bad glow plug fault doesn't clear the code, have him trace out the wiring from the glow plug harness connector on the cylinder head - #1 and #4 are reversed. Unless cylinder #1 is at the firewall, the wires are reversed. Star told my tech that most of the 05's were wired that way, but not before he wasted half a day trying to figure it out.

As to the trouble reading the codes, I could read and clear codes before the last flash update. Now I cannot. They either hosed my PCM or the new code has changed the parameters so that my scan program no longer works. I have read on another site that someone using a Scangauge now has the same problem - can't read a darn thing after the latest flash update.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:37 am

Almost tempted to call up and see what the bloody things cost, if not excessive, just get them and change then out myself. These 60 mile round trips to the dealer are getting way old.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

$48.00 each. You can change out #1 and #4 without too much trouble, but #2 and #3 are behind the intake tube - it has to come off before you can reach those 2. I had to ohm out the wiring problem before they could figure out what was wrong on mine. Not to mention that they had to order the gp's after they found 2 bad, so it was another 7 days before those came in. The situation is probably better now, but I'd call the parts department and ask if they have any in stock first - if not, order them, when they come in, then take it in for repair. Once they know what they need, they can then use yours. But I'd ohm them out first just to be sure. If you're like me, tired of too many hundred mile round trips, only to have to come back again when parts are in, you have to think ahead of them. When it happened to mine, Star would not release the gp's to the tech even after he identified the problem, without another battery of tests. Same as they did on the egr valve. So in frustration, I offered to buy the gp's at my own expense from their parts department, let him put them in and forget Star. Parts department couldn't order them last summer as they were on national restriction. I think they are available now though at larger dealerships. The only other caveat is that the tech cannot touch the ceramic tips or drop them even 2 centimeters - as described on the instructions. They will burn out if the oil on your hands gets on the ceramic tips. Strange for a device that is being sprayed with hot diesel oil. But same caveat applies to TDI's late model gp's by Bosch. Drivbiwire had same warning over there.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:56 am

As far as the intake tube, do you mean the Air Flow Control valve and the attached stub tube? From what I've seen, could manage to pull that off myself as well, just need the new gaskets for it.

Still have to make a trip to the dealer though, all parts orders have to be prepaid. :roll:

And I'll be double-d####d if I'm going to order them thru Lake Norman!!!!

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Yes, that's the tube. The FSM states that you also have to remove the Alternator and its support bracket to get to them. I'd ask if they're in stock before taking it in though. I don't think I've ever owned any vehicle that had so few parts in normal stock at the dealership before.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Retmil, if it turns out that your gp's are bad, I'm wondering why a PCM code safeguard hasn't been put in place. Mine went out last summer. I've tracked others on other forums who have had egr failures, then followed by failures on overstressed gp's. Some of the PCM flash updates list more robust/longetivy of gp's by reducing gp duty cycle in their changelog. So, knowing that the maximum duty cycle of the gp's is a known fact, why doesn't the PCM have a safeguard built-in to its programming, especially when a component like a failed open egr causes an artifical out of parameter condition like too low a burn temperature to exist? Why not monitor the gp's duty cycle in these conditions, and go into a safeguard gp limit mode before they are overstressed, then set a code that shows a condition of unable to bring burn temperature up to spec? Seems less expensive than replacing gp's. It could even be listed as a CEL situation with an EPA emissions failure condition, requiring immediate service.

It seems simple enough here just discussing it. I wonder if DC has outsourced the PCM coding and the flow of information just isn't as good as it could be?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:47 am

I bloody well hope it is the glow plugs. I'll find out later today, got several multimeters around.

I was in the mood yesterday, that if it did turn out to be the EGR again, after less than 1000 miles, factoring in all the other trips for other problems, I was ready to call the beast "sold". NADA on it for my mileage is $18K and change, owe $5 1/2 on it. Would work out just about right, Toyota Yaris costs $12K, give them the keys to the CRD and they give me the keys to a Yaris and we call it even.

But if it's the glow plugs, I'll stick it out a while longer. At least so far it's been nothing repetitive....YET.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:56 pm

Pulled the connector and checked the resistance to engine ground.

Going by the color coding on the wires, plugs 1, 2, and 3 read 0.7 ohms. Plug 4 read 230 ohms (red/orange wire connection).

Looks like it's only one bad plug, and given what you said about the wiring possibly being reversed, it' #1 or #4, one of the easy plugs to pull.

Now, if only they have one in stock, I could be in and out on the same day.

FSM wiring diagrams do come in handy.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

A quick ohm continuity check from the pin for gp#4 on the connector to the gp connector itself will show you which one is really gp#4. I had to do this in order to see which gp was actually bad. The tech was stumped, never expecting the wiring to be wrong. GP#4 on mine was the front gp toward the radiator. Amazing how much smoke can come from one bad gp.

Patience Wearing Thin

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