CRD Grand Cherokee available for order today.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:05 am

DarbyWalters wrote:

Experiment #2 (#2 could be the key):
$40,000 Diesel (USA Emissions) w/ Auto Transmission and ULSD

Expected sales @ ???

#2 usually always just gets flushed

DW you are just too funny. :lol:

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Darby, I think you're on to something. DCX has found a brilliant marketing strategy with their diesel product line:

Market past diesel performance of good quality MB diesels of 20 years ago - sell on past reputation
Sell, sell, sell, sky high torque ratings, great fuel economy, insert new twist here, use premium pricing to create illusion of quality

The rest you know from history.

PS - I like DZL_LOU's strategy - wait to see if the GC/diesel engine combo survives the first 2 years, wait for the 60% depreciation, then buy if you want a diesel.

macd · **Joined:** Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:46 pm **Posts:** 50

Regarding the GC CRD, I think it will go something like this. Advertise 345ft/lbs torque to sell it and then a year later come out with a "Customer Satisfaction Notice (ie recall) to reduce the torque so that subpar TC and transmission will make it through the warranty period. Dejavu

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

The current generation of the Grand Cherokee is ugly. It's too boxy inside and out and the dashboard looks like cheap plastic.

Then there is the price issue. $40K for a Chrysler car? In that price-range, GC is competing with autos WAY beyond the GC in looks and appeal - MB diesel or not.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:43 pm

They need to get some new marketing ideas. The Compass Ads are ridiculous. The Dodge Caliber is selling like hotcakes...the Compass is not. If I owned a Jeep Dealership I would be steaming :oops:

over the fact that the Dodge Dealerships get a 1 year jump on the Nitro and Jeep is waiting until the next model year to sell the new Liberty. The Jeep/Chysler Dealerships have just a "hodgepodge" of vehicles on the lot.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Jeger wrote:

Reflex wrote:

I just want to point out that the obvious answer to both of these questions is the same. The US has the highest emissions standards in the world for cars, and as a result it is difficult to make a diesel meet those restrictions. Even the best diesels couldn't be sold in five states, including two of the largest population wise(California/New York), which makes it difficult to justify bringing a model to this market when millions of potential customers are off limits.

Bluetec and other new 'clean diesel' technologies are going to be changing this over the next few years hopefully, as well as a better understanding of just how bad CO2 is. Its not a conspiracy, its just related to environmental policy.

As for automatic transmissions, its a combination of them simply being more in demand in the US along with emissions as well, its far simpler to control the emissions on a vehicle thats automatic from the computer than it is for a manual. The percentage of autos sold aid car manufacturers in pushing up their overall averages

The US emission standards are a joke, they measure the emissions based on emissions/gallon of fuel burned regardless of how many miles that gallon will get you. For example you could compare a moped that got 100-150 MPG against a semi that gets around 8 MPG and under US regs the moped could still fail emissions while the semi passes. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense does it. A 50 MPG TDI is now illegal, but they still allow Excursions on the road.

I certainly agree with you there, not debating whether our system needs reform at all. What you mention is also why Ethanol is becoming popular even though it has worse CO2 emissions than gasoline(its measured per gallon rather than per mile). But thats neither here nor there, the car companies have to play by the rules the US government sets up, and those rules are very difficult to make and as a result they have to push technologies that allow them to make the 'average' across their product line. Its a game of dancing with requirements.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

However you figure the GCD, either by pollution, mpg, or some other esoteric measurment system, the bottom line is that at the prices noted (and there is still some debate about that) the cost of the GC with the new diesel is approx two times, or 100% more than I paid new for my '05 CRD Sport.

No one can make any excuse for that ridiculous price, except that DCX wishes to maximize its profit. I don't remember a lot from the one economics course I was forced to take in college, but it seems to me that you are better off making less per car and selling a ton of them, than a high profit on only a very few which may get sold.

DCX's assumptions concerning the profitability of large vehicles are clearly outdated and, in fact, just plain wrong. This is best evidenced by the fact that the really big jeep, Commander, is a dog and found unsold in big numbers on dealer lots. In fact, the Commander is already scheduled to be dropped after '08. In addition I believe that DCX execs think that they have a "winner" in the diesel due to the enthusiasim of Liberty buyers resulting in the "sell out" of the model. However, there is a big difference in the demographics of the purchaser of a 25k car vs a 40-50k car. I personally don't see anyone breaking down a dealer's door to buy the GCD. For the money (or close to it) there are a number of other and arguably "better" made vehicles including other diesels.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:52 am

Actually, I remember reading a survey done a few years back about why automatics were so popular in the U.S.

Number one reason quoted for buying an auto - to have one hand free to operate a cell phone. :evil:

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Remember the intense interest prior to the CRD being released in early 05? DC announcing 60,000 emails asking about the diesel option. Notice how there isn't any announcement about overwhelming interest in the GC CDI diesel? DC is the one drumming up interest now, in sharp contrast to the customer demand for the CRD prior to its release.

I believe this to be the case for several reasons:

Early diesel adopters had high hopes for a future manual tranny for the Liberty CRD if the automatic models sold well. DC put an end to those expectations with their announcement of the missing 07 CRD

Early diesel adopters hoped not only for power and economy, but longevity and durability of the diesel engine. Oil companies decided to maximize profit on diesel fuel at precisely the time Passat TDI's, CRD's and MB E320 CDI's were just appearing. Regardless of the reason, the price differential between gasolene and diesel in the majority of the US is a perceived negative in purchase decisions. Failures on the CRD began appearing within months of release, not years, and DC's lack of commitment to their supply chain became painfully obvious to their early diesel supporters. 10 day repair times became commonplace reports among early owners. Most of the time was spent waiting on parts.

Reliability issues with the CRD were initially badly handled by DC and worsened when it became apparent that not only was DC not entirely supportive of their diesel introduction, they were avoiding satisfactory remedial action on both the tranny shudder and subsequent TC failures, as well as egr failures. Quality warranty support is now a major blight on DC/Jeep and will taint future sales for some time I believe. DC further telegraphed their confidence in their own build quality in 05 by announcing reduced warranty from 7/70 to 3/36 for 06 models, except for diesel engines, which incidentally, DC does not build. They exacerbated this poor decision with an incredible excuse that the average DC buyer didn't find the 7/70K warranty a major incentive to purchase a DC product. Again, this is not an issue for those CRD owners without major problems, but as warranty's expire, it will become increasingly painful for DC diesel owners if this behavior continues.

Early diesel adopters were hopeful that Liberty CRD sales would lead to both a Wrangler diesel and the Gladiator diesel pickup.

DC responded by:

Dropping the existing CRD Liberty with no firm or credible information on its reappearance
Dropping the Gladiators future as a production vehicle and announcing that any market for such a vehicle would be too small
Building the diesel Wrangler and then not selling it in the US

After 2 years of ineffective TSB and computer flashes for the CRD, they detuned the CRD to the point where many CRD owners do not appreciate the new driving characteristics of their vehicles - nor the attempt by DC to extend the warranty life on inadequate spec'd driveline components by reducing power.

Finally, DC proudly announces the GC CDI diesel, and prices it as though they have built a loyal and solid base of diesel support among their existing customer base. They price their diesel line as though they have the track record of Honda or Toyota in the mid 1980's.

Meanwhile, as their losses rise well into the billion dollar stratosphere, they press on with their "premium platform" attitude just as if the last 2 years of management folly had never occurred.

DC is apparently aiming to be the example of a failed business model that MBA programs will teach future business majors to avoid. Similar to tales of misguided confidence of captain Smith and the Titanic.

When will they wake up?

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:20 am

Jeger wrote:

Reflex wrote:

I just want to point out that the obvious answer to both of these questions is the same. The US has the highest emissions standards in the world for cars, and as a result it is difficult to make a diesel meet those restrictions. Even the best diesels couldn't be sold in five states, including two of the largest population wise(California/New York), which makes it difficult to justify bringing a model to this market when millions of potential customers are off limits.

Bluetec and other new 'clean diesel' technologies are going to be changing this over the next few years hopefully, as well as a better understanding of just how bad CO2 is. Its not a conspiracy, its just related to environmental policy.

As for automatic transmissions, its a combination of them simply being more in demand in the US along with emissions as well, its far simpler to control the emissions on a vehicle thats automatic from the computer than it is for a manual. The percentage of autos sold aid car manufacturers in pushing up their overall averages

The US emission standards are a joke, they measure the emissions based on emissions/gallon of fuel burned regardless of how many miles that gallon will get you. For example you could compare a moped that got 100-150 MPG against a semi that gets around 8 MPG and under US regs the moped could still fail emissions while the semi passes. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense does it. A 50 MPG TDI is now illegal, but they still allow Excursions on the road.

You're absolutely right, the Emission laws are ridiculous. And as far as Global Warming goes, the Creator of heaven and earth has far more control over what happens to climate changes than what man thinks he has. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for alternative fuels, bio fuels, and a clean Earth. As a matter of fact, I’m an organic growing on a small farm and We’re in the process of building a Solar home. But no matter how much the EPA restricts my Diesel Engines, Gas Engines, and my Stihl Chainsaw, we can not reverse or over come climate changes. The EPA restricts the life of our costly engines in hopes to save the earth . One Volcano can blow enough sulfur and smoke to keep our sky’s dark for months and turn our summers into winter. Okay, I’m getting off subject. But we really need to question rather our EPA laws are effective or misleading and destructive.

macd · **Joined:** Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:46 pm **Posts:** 50

Ranger1 wrote:

Remember the intense interest prior to the CRD being released in early 05? DC announcing 60,000 emails asking about the diesel option. Notice how there isn't any announcement about overwhelming interest in the GC CDI diesel? DC is the one drumming up interest now, in sharp contrast to the customer demand for the CRD prior to its release.

I believe this to be the case for several reasons:

Early diesel adopters had high hopes for a future manual tranny for the Liberty CRD if the automatic models sold well. DC put an end to those expectations with their announcement of the missing 07 CRD

Early diesel adopters hoped not only for power and economy, but longevity and durability of the diesel engine. Oil companies decided to maximize profit on diesel fuel at precisely the time Passat TDI's, CRD's and MB E320 CDI's were just appearing. Regardless of the reason, the price differential between gasolene and diesel in the majority of the US is a perceived negative in purchase decisions. Failures on the CRD began appearing within months of release, not years, and DC's lack of commitment to their supply chain became painfully obvious to their early diesel supporters. 10 day repair times became commonplace reports among early owners. Most of the time was spent waiting on parts.

Reliability issues with the CRD were initially badly handled by DC and worsened when it became apparent that not only was DC not entirely supportive of their diesel introduction, they were avoiding satisfactory remedial action on both the tranny shudder and subsequent TC failures, as well as egr failures. Quality warranty support is now a major blight on DC/Jeep and will taint future sales for some time I believe. DC further telegraphed their confidence in their own build quality in 05 by announcing reduced warranty from 7/70 to 3/36 for 06 models, except for diesel engines, which incidentally, DC does not build. They exacerbated this poor decision with an incredible excuse that the average DC buyer didn't find the 7/70K warranty a major incentive to purchase a DC product. Again, this is not an issue for those CRD owners without major problems, but as warranty's expire, it will become increasingly painful for DC diesel owners if this behavior continues.

Early diesel adopters were hopeful that Liberty CRD sales would lead to both a Wrangler diesel and the Gladiator diesel pickup.

DC responded by:

Dropping the existing CRD Liberty with no firm or credible information on its reappearance
Dropping the Gladiators future as a production vehicle and announcing that any market for such a vehicle would be too small
Building the diesel Wrangler and then not selling it in the US

After 2 years of ineffective TSB and computer flashes for the CRD, they detuned the CRD to the point where many CRD owners do not appreciate the new driving characteristics of their vehicles - nor the attempt by DC to extend the warranty life on inadequate spec'd driveline components by reducing power.

Finally, DC proudly announces the GC CDI diesel, and prices it as though they have built a loyal and solid base of diesel support among their existing customer base. They price their diesel line as though they have the track record of Honda or Toyota in the mid 1980's.

Meanwhile, as their losses rise well into the billion dollar stratosphere, they press on with their "premium platform" attitude just as if the last 2 years of management folly had never occurred.

DC is apparently aiming to be the example of a failed business model that MBA programs will teach future business majors to avoid. Similar to tales of misguided confidence of captain Smith and the Titanic.

When will they wake up?

I've been a life long MOPAR customer, as well as my father was. My mom went to high school with the owner of my local Chrysler dealer, so I get exceptional service. My dealer is the reason I've been a MOPAR man, not the MOPAR product. But my CRD will probably be my last DCX purchase.

DCX is clearly a company full of arrogant executives that think they have their finger on the pulse or Joe Consumer (us). Honestly, the new Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler lineup is pathetic. If I take the option to replace my CRD with a comparable vehicle, there is nothing in DC lineup that interests me. DC has polluted the Jeep name with grocery getters and their pickups get the worse gas mileage out of anyones. I had an 04 RAM QC w/4.7l and that truck was anemic. Couldnt tow anything. The Dodge Nitro R/T is a nothing more than a grocery getter. No off road capabilities.

On the flip side, the 6 cylinder Nissan Frontier has similar HP and TQ numbers than the Dakota V8. It seems Toyota and Nissan are building what the consumer wants, but the American car companies fail to listen to consumer. Which is why they are failing miserably.

Whats even more ironic is how badly DCX blew the CRD from a design and support perspective. Why would anyone think the GCRD is going to be any different? If I would have had a pleasant experience with my CRD I would have jumped on the GCRD. But now I wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole. I think a good number of people here would have done the same. DCX blew it big time!

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:33 pm

macd wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

Remember the intense interest prior to the CRD being released in early 05? DC announcing 60,000 emails asking about the diesel option. Notice how there isn't any announcement about overwhelming interest in the GC CDI diesel? DC is the one drumming up interest now, in sharp contrast to the customer demand for the CRD prior to its release.

I believe this to be the case for several reasons:

Early diesel adopters had high hopes for a future manual tranny for the Liberty CRD if the automatic models sold well. DC put an end to those expectations with their announcement of the missing 07 CRD

Early diesel adopters hoped not only for power and economy, but longevity and durability of the diesel engine. Oil companies decided to maximize profit on diesel fuel at precisely the time Passat TDI's, CRD's and MB E320 CDI's were just appearing. Regardless of the r

Dropping the existing CRD Liberty with no firm or credible information on its reappearance
Dropping the Gladiators future as a production vehicle and announcing that any market for such a vehicle would be too small
Building the diesel Wrangler and then not selling it in the US

After 2 years of ineffective TSB and computer flashes for the CRD, they detuned the CRD to the point where many CRD owners do not appreciate the new driving characteristics of their vehicles - nor the attempt by DC to extend the warranty life on inadequate spec'd driveline components by reducing power.

Finally, DC proudly announces the GC CDI diesel, and prices it as though they have built a loyal and solid base of diesel support among their existing customer base. They price their diesel line as though they have the track record of Honda or Toyota in the mid 1980's.

Meanwhile, as their losses rise well into the billion dollar stratosphere, they press on with their "premium platform" attitude just as if the last 2 years of management folly had never occurred.

DC is apparently aiming to be the example of a failed business model that MBA programs will teach future business majors to avoid. Similar to tales of misguided confidence of captain Smith and the Titanic.

When will they wake up?

I've been a life long MOPAR customer, as well as my father was. My mom went to high school with the owner of my local Chrysler dealer, so I get exceptional service. My dealer is the reason I've been a MOPAR man, not the MOPAR product. But my CRD will probably be my last DCX purchase.

DCX is clearly a company full of arrogant executives that think they have their finger on the pulse or Joe Consumer (us). Honestly, the new Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler lineup is pathetic. If I take the option to replace my CRD with a comparable vehicle, there is nothing in DC lineup that interests me. DC has polluted the Jeep name with grocery getters and their pickups get the worse gas mileage out of anyones. I had an 04 RAM QC w/4.7l and that truck was anemic. Couldnt tow anything. The Dodge Nitro R/T is a nothing more than a grocery getter. No off road capabilities.

On the flip side, the 6 cylinder Nissan Frontier has similar HP and TQ numbers than the Dakota V8. It seems Toyota and Nissan are building what the consumer wants, but the American car companies fail to listen to consumer. Which is why they are failing miserably.

Whats even more ironic is how badly DCX blew the CRD from a design and support perspective. Why would anyone think the GCRD is going to be any different? If I would have had a pleasant experience with my CRD I would have jumped on the GCRD. But now I wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole. I think a good number of people here would have done the same. DCX blew it big time!

Totally understand where you are coming from.

For me, it's okay to make a mistake as we are all human...but....it's what you do after you figure out you have made a mistake that matters. DCX knows they made a mistake with the TC design and instead of fixing the problem properly, they have chosen the band-aid route of F37...which upsets me. My CRD is not part of the F37 recall (at least not yet), but I can understand why so many are upset by the decisions of DCX. Fixing the problems on the Liberty CRD properly would have gone a long way toward showing that DCX cares about it's Diesel customers and wants to be on the forefront of modern diesel technology in the US.

I am still very happy with my CRD...but....DCX is not building a good reputation for supporting it's diesel customers, and anyone who decides to purchase a GC CRD right away should be aware of this.

CRD Grand Cherokee available for order today.

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