Biodiesel Project

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:18 pm

I have no desire to sell biodiesel to others. My objective was to let everyone know that “when used properly, the BioPro 190 can successfully produce Biodiesel that can pass the ASTM Standard for commercially produced Biodiesel in the United States”. Many people do not realize that it is possible to make ASTM quality grade biodiesel. The idea that I can make quality fuel (by using the BioPro) is very much worth noting, especially as we justify the cost of a quality processor. I do not mind the time involved in making biodiesel and grease collection. As a matter of fact, I look forward to those opportunities.

mrkake · **Posted:** Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:44 am

Ahh, my misunderstanding. I thought that you were indicating that since it is capable of creating commercial grade Biodiesel, that you would be able to sell some of it to offset your costs. I am with you on the time spent. I brewed my own beer for about 13 years and even though it was time consuming, I thoroughly enjoyed the process even more than drinking the final product (I gave a lot away). That's what I hope to be able to accomplish with this new kind of home brewing. Spending time doing something that I enjoy and then enjoying the fruits of my labor.

On another note; when doing research on the different systems I was surprised by the claim that the BioPro will process oil that titrates as high as 14gm/liter of NaOH because it does and acid esterification before the transesterification. I think you still want to find the most mildly used, highest quality WVO you can get your hands on, but it does allow you more options. I know that I have sounded like a salesman for the BioPro through this thread, but it is just a great machine from what I have heard. The only thing that I don't like about it is the fact that they have you use a set amount of acid, methanol and catalyst regardless of the titration number of your oil. They went for maximum user ease and just made the dosing level high enough to cover pretty much any decent oil that you put in it. That's not to say that you couldn't do your own formulas and reduce the dosing level according to the FFA level in your oil.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:16 pm

mrkake wrote:

Ahh, my misunderstanding. I thought that you were indicating that since it is capable of creating commercial grade Biodiesel, that you would be able to sell some of it to offset your costs. I am with you on the time spent. I brewed my own beer for about 13 years and even though it was time consuming, I thoroughly enjoyed the process even more than drinking the final product (I gave a lot away). That's what I hope to be able to accomplish with this new kind of home brewing. Spending time doing something that I enjoy and then enjoying the fruits of my labor.

I totally understand. When we first got into honeybees, we lived at 7,000 feet in New Mexico. Going into this hobby, we knew there would be more complications at that altitude and climate zone. Due to a more extreme environment, we had to take extra precautions with winter temperatures, making sure that we left enough honey in the hive after extractions so the bees could winter on it, and keeping the hives safe from bears. In addition, we practice organic beekeeping, therefore we never use medication in the hive nor do we heat-treat the honey. Everything we do is by hand, which makes the honey collection process a little longer. However, the final results is very much worth the extra time. Today we have developed several strong hives that yield about 60 lbs of honey from each hive. We use nice looking glass jars that vary in size and shape that can be returned and refilled. To this day, we haven’t sold any honey. We have given most of it away just for the simple fact we enjoy our little hobby. In the meantime, we use the honey as our sweetener. We do not use sugar, we sweeten everything with honey. It’s been an honor to have had many health food stores/herbal shops/and other wellness shops want to stock our honey on their shelves. Maybe someday, as we increase honey production, we might do that. Right now we enjoy giving our honey away and making people feel good. This is also an opportunity to share with people the importance of organic farming and the health benefits for eating raw foods. This year we are expanding our operations to do less liquid honey and more comb honey. I’m also implementing my own homebuilt hive design that is conducive to comb honey as it would increase natural honey production to assimilate a method for comb building in a bee’s natural environment. This would be my same approach with biodiesel. I’m willing to take the extra time to make quality homebrew. At the end, I think it about a way of life, not so much about the money you saved.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:47 pm

...but don't dump your glycerin down the drain, it can shock your septic or city sewer treatment.
Good applications for glycerin that can not be sold or donated to other cottage industries are:

1) Adding it to a anaerobic digester as long as the process is watched by someone with the proper training. Some waste water plants have anaerobic digesters, ask.
2) Adding to septage, but let the process operator determine how much.
3) Add to mulching operations, but let the process operator determine how much.

I work with Waste Water Operators and Environmental Engineers as part of my job. When I point out the ways to use waste glycerin generated by Home Biodiesel Brewers, they are relieved and some of them are very willing to use the waste glycerin in their treatment process to make it work better. To do this, they need to regulate the amount used and watch their BUGS to see what is the best level.

To explain the effects of glycerin on the anaerobic treatment process I use this example. Dumping in a load of glycerin is like, storming into a Kindergarten class with a 50 pound bag of candy rip it open and dump it, the class room would be in a riot with very unruly children. Allowing the process operator to control the addition of glycerin is like giving the school a 50 pound bag of candy to use as motivation for the children.

cntrline36 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:10 pm

X2 on don't dump glycerine in a sewer. There are several uses for it after you get the methanol out of it. For some imaginative uses see here: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... /739605551

You will definitely want to make some liquid soap out of some of it for cleaning WVO from things it gets spilled on. Liquid glycerine soap is about the only thing I have found that will remove WVO, especially if it's a few days before I can get around to doing some cleanup.

I also try to keep a little mixed up with some water in case I spill biodiesel on the vehicle while refueling. Biodiesel will remove automotive paint. It is a great organic solvent. Just brush on a little glycerine soap, quick rinse-good to go.

Legal Eagle over on infopop has done a lot of work on making soap from biodiesel glycerine, both liquid and bar soap. I highly recommend his book. Making a simple liquid soap can be found here: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 4971066691

HTH,
Clint

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:22 am

mrkake wrote:

I know that I have sounded like a salesman for the BioPro through this thread, but it is just a great machine from what I have heard. The only thing that I don't like about it is the fact that they have you use a set amount of acid, methanol and catalyst regardless of the titration number of your oil. They went for maximum user ease and just made the dosing level high enough to cover pretty much any decent oil that you put in it. That's not to say that you couldn't do your own formulas and reduce the dosing level according to the FFA level in your oil.

I think most of us would agree that making quality biodiesel is crucial, and I think most of us would agree that we’d prefer ASTM quality grade biodiesel. I imagine the primary purpose for the BioPro is to ensure a quality fuel by maximizing user ease. I also think the user ease feature is what sets them apart from other biodiesel kits. The BioPro isn’t going to do everything for you, but it does cut down room for human error. Your sales pitch for the BioPro could be best described as advocating for a quality product that you believe in. As already mentioned by UFO and others, the need to ensure quality equipment is equally as important as making the homebrew itself. I respect the level or scale in which everyone makes homebrew. I know for me, the Bio Pro route would most likely be in my best interest. Sometime, within the next few weeks, I will contact BioPro and find out more about their future. I’m sure technology is constantly changing, therefore a more affordable option may be in the works.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:36 am

Warp2diesel and cntrline36, thanks for the information. I have read about the issues for disposing glycerin properly or finding ways to recycle the by-product. My intentions is to find ways or find someone who is willing to turn glycerin into eco-friendly uses. :wink:

My wife made glycerin soap 5 years ago. We actually went out and PAID for glycerin to use as our soap making base stock. :shock:

It would only make sense to find useful options for the glycerin. However, I did not know that biodiesel can take paint off a vehicle. :shock:

Nor did I know that glycerin soap is an excellent cleaner for WVO. :wink:

Thanks for all the links. There is so much to learn……………….

CATCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:04 pm

I know this thread is mainly about BD now and not WVO, but I don't think this link has been posted here before.

http://www.thegreasybrothers.com/Gallery.php

I wonder why he wants to sell it if it's working so well.

maxxgraphix · **Joined:** Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:11 am **Posts:** 53

I run Bio when I can get the oil. It's hard to get oil with a BioDiesel refinery 6 miles from your house. They make 8000 gallons every 8 hours. And not one drop is sold locally.

Anyway, you can build a processor for under $300.00. Just use 55 gallon drums and the rest of the junk for an Apple Seed. I think Girl Marks book has the drum design also. I have a 110 gallon processor myself. It takes some practice to get it right. It's also next to impossible to do during the winter. The washing is the key to making a good batch.

Don't do WVO! With real BD you can mix blends of any percentage. WVO has so many problems.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:02 am

I love all the people that tout the "washing" methods... Then start talking about how their biodiesel will absorb water from the air and everywhere else.

Exactly how can it do that? Do me a test: Take a glass of water, and pour in an ounce of ink. You have just polluted your water.

Now get the ink out again.

You can't. Even if you had an "ink sucker" device, some would ALWAYS be left in.

Oil and water don't mix. They WILL separate, if left alone or boiled. As leaving it alone uses less energy, that is how I did it. I gravity filtered my oil for a solid WEEK, after ONLY taking from the top of oil drums, and carefully avoiding the sludge layers.

I then avoided the bottom of the my own oil drum, so again, enhancing the separation and ensuring that there was no water in the oil to make soap with.

Then I produced my biodiesel, and filtered the heck out of it. But at NO POINT did I ever add any water back into it. Every time I did an experiment with adding water... I made a batch of mayonnaise. Something milky that would NEVER separate out. No matter how much water I tried. Period.

So why would I want to do that? If you don't have any pollutants in the oil to start with... There won't be any there to remove at the end. Simple and efficient.

mrkake · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:06 am

Quote:

So why would I want to do that? If you don't have any pollutants in the oil to start with... There won't be any there to remove at the end.

If I understand the process correctly, the washing phase is to remove the residual glycerin, catalyst and methanol which will not settle out. There are dry wash methods to do the same thing where you run your BD through a filter medium (Amberlite, Magnesol, etc) and it traps the leftovers.

You make a very good point that cannot be over emphasized though. the quality of your feedstock and everything you do to clean it up and dry it out before you process it is vital to the whole process. The big BD plant here in Vegas runs some used veggie oil, but their primary feedstock is fresh soybean oil (or so I am told). It doesn't get much cleaner or drier than that. Not practical for the DIY home brewer though.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:39 pm

I've thought about that too, that it's for the "residual" methanol and catalyst and glycerin.

Here are my thoughts on that:

I had refined my process to the point where I was running about 12% methanol batches (FAR below the 20% that I agree newbies should start with) and using the proper amount of NaOH for the batch. I would let it settle for 24 hours, and then filter it.

The result? When the alcohol runs out, the reaction stops. If the NaOH runs out, the reaction also stops, and you have a strong smell of methanol as the residual evaporates off. I saved sample bottles of my product, and even YEARS later, the amount of residual glycerin production is next to nothing. Maybe worth a drop or two in a bottle with a solid LITER of biodiesel. I can't determine what the initial amounts were on those samples, but not every sample has glycerin in the bottom. Darn few, as a matter of fact. Not a one was washed.

My belief is that it is better to be alcohol-rich than have an excess of catalyst, but doing that became expensive, and I wasn't interested in the methanol recovery idea. I tried it, and it not only proved difficult to accomplish on a next-to-zero budget, but the results were less than stellar. And I had to add energy once again. My goal was simple: Quality Fuel produced with as little energy input as possible. I managed to do just that, b/c I did not add ANY heat or water, and the only energy input was from a mixing auger on a drill, and the pump to move the stuff around. Thats it.

If I start making Bio again, it will be when I can get E85 easily. That will be my new alcohol, as the cost for Methanol had gone up about 50% during my time making fuel. That made the costs insane, when I factored in my time as well. Eventually I may do it again, and run alcohol-heavy batches. I've heard that the 15% gasoline isn't enough to mess up the reaction or the engine... But I will be testing that extensively before the car gets any. My understanding is that a 30% batch is enough to offer the proper amount of alcohol, and the gasoline will separate into the glycerin somehow. This will be tested. I've also heard that the gasoline and the ethanol don't like each other, and will separate on their own. This will also be tested.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:25 pm

referred to Ethanol as grain alcohol.
Does any one have any idea how they made methanol out of wood?

In the Midwest, Northeast, Southeast obtaining wood chips is not a problem, there has to be a way to make methanol out of wood chips cheaper than paying the high price they charge.
It may be fun to build stills using 1930's technology to purify methanol, but since the boiling point is around 180f solar may be an option.

Since you can't drink methanol with out going blind, I don't believe the B.A.T.F.E could care less about home brewers making it.

Steve

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:40 am

Hi geordi, I too have not washed my last batches of bio. One thing to remember though is that even if you start with good quality oil you can still produce sub ASTM spec Bio. The stoichiometric ratio of MEtoh to oil is 13% but a complete reaction cannot take place with under ~20% because of the principle of reaction reversibility. It has to be forced to a completion with an overload of reactant. When <20% methanol is used you will still get a reaction with good phase separation but a large percent of of the product will be monomers and dimers. You mentioned in one of your posts that when you tried to wash your bio it produced mayonnaise. That is an indication of very poorly reacted bio with either a large amount of soap or mono and di-glycerides.

Even if your oil is very dry you can still make soap but the soap will have no emulsifying properties until you add H2O as in during the wash or when there is condensation in the fuel tank. If you are not washing the product give it enough time in a container open to air so that the alcohol can completely evaporate, preferably 6 weeks or more. If the fuel still has alcohol in it, it holds an almost equal amount of glycerin in suspension as well as some soap. I kept some beautiful fresh unwashed Bio in some mason jars and after several months it still looked clear with no sediment, but when I opened one to the air for a couple of weeks the alcohol evaporated and about 1/4 inch of glycerin settled out. I've had the same thing happen in my fuel tank as well when fresh unwashed fuel gets heated and the alcohol evaporates out.

Another mistake that some backyard BD producers is in discounting Biodiesel's ability to absorb and hold water. BD is not a completely non-polar compound, it is slightly polar on one end and does have a mild affinity for water. If the temperature remains constant that would never be a problem because it would reach saturation with H2O from the air and then not be able to accept any more. The problem occurs because as the temperature drops it's ability to hold water also drops. When that happens in the vehicle water settles on the bottom of the fuel tank and can cause various and sundry problems. Dino diesel will also do this but not nearly to the same degree. To avoid the water dropout I don't draw my BD from bottom of the holding tank, and if I know that there is going to be a steep temperature drop I just add a tiny bit of red bottle heet to the tank.

Now all that being said, personally I don't care if my fuel is sub spec in regard to bound glycerin or soap content because monomers and dimers burn just as well as FAME and only increase the viscosity by a very small amount and make the exhaust smell better too. I just make sure that all the free glycerin has been removed, not because it wont burn well or cause gumming of the injectors etc (contrary to the statements of some BD producers) but because it will saturate the filter and cause restriction if enough is dropping out of solution.
Anyone considering making their own BD or even if they just want to learn about it they should first read ALL of the section on making it at infopop. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751
long may our CRDs live drinking all natural, delicious Biodiesel.

Edited for gramar

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:43 am

Whoa! I just realized how ridiculously long that last post was. Sorry folks. :oops:

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:50 am

nursecosmo wrote:

Whoa! I just realized how ridiculously long that last post was. Sorry folks. :oops:

Paragraphs help.

How come Reflex hasn't chimed in yet?

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:54 am

Sir Sam wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

Whoa! I just realized how ridiculously long that last post was. Sorry folks. :oops:

Paragraphs help.

How come Reflex hasn't chimed in yet?

His engine was dissolved when he accidentally added palm oil Biodiesel at the gas station. :lol:

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:55 am

warp2diesel wrote:

referred to Ethanol as grain alcohol.
Does any one have any idea how they made methanol out of wood?

In the Midwest, Northeast, Southeast obtaining wood chips is not a problem, there has to be a way to make methanol out of wood chips cheaper than paying the high price they charge.
It may be fun to build stills using 1930's technology to purify methanol, but since the boiling point is around 180f solar may be an option.

Since you can't drink methanol with out going blind, I don't believe the B.A.T.F.E could care less about home brewers making it.

Steve

Our ethanol plants here in Western Kansas uses wood alcohol and grain alcohol. As you have already mentioned, Methanol is a wood alcohol and ethanol is a grain alcohol. There are certain tree farms that are planted just for the purpose to harvest methanol. I would think a small scale operation would be difficult to extract enough Methanol to make the process worth it. Why is methanol so dang expensive? Does methanol go bad if stored for long periods of time? I would think it would be profitable to buy Methanol in bulk at a better price. My Sister and Husband own several restaurants in Kansas City. My Sister says that they use high quality grease and some restaurants use strictly peanut oil. Anyway, they told me I could have all the grease I wanted. So when I visit family in Kansas City, I plan to take my trailer and load up and stock pile my grease. Likewise, I would like to find a good supplier of Methanol and stock pile that to. Or am I being unrealistic?

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:59 am

e85 is pretty cheap........anyway to burn off the gas or distill off the gas?

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:12 am

Sir Sam wrote:

e85 is pretty cheap........anyway to burn off the gas or distill off the gas?

E85 is everywhere here. Would you buy E85 or straight ethanol for making biodiesel?
Side note: We have a Biodiesel plant not too far away in Guymon, OK. They are making bio from hog fat. Anyway, the biodiesel plant is making something like 60,000 gallons a day and LOVES (a big fuel station for truckers and passenger cars) has already bought up all the diesel. Every drop they can produce, it’s all bought up. Crazy huh? We will never will see Biodiesel sold here locally because it’s being all bought up by big stations.

Biodiesel Project

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