International Buys Jeep

mackruss · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:17 am

Yeah, go third world then you get to choose from every manufacturer :wink:

tan's2002kjlimited · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:11 am

nursecosmo wrote:

I'd love to have a Tata.

I'd love a really nice pair of bodacious TaTas right about now.

clackclack · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:27 am

tan's2002kjlimited wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

I'd love to have a Tata.

I'd love a really nice pair of bodacious TaTas right about now.

At 10 am on a Sunday.... :shock:

I'm looking for my slippers and the Sunday paper.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:53 am

...no brainer. After all look at the mess the Finance Gurus got us into.
The same ones who committed Federal Felonies by putting their Hooker payments on company credit cards.
I would trust even Fiat more than Hedge Fund Operators.
Navistar would be the best in my opinion. Tata would be OK.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:38 pm

General Motors merging with Chrysler is still being discussed. Either way, GM is screwed if they don’t do something. Nissan is wanting to expand its wings and has been mentioned as a possible merger with Chrysler. As sales continue to plummet, the talks will get louder. Oh, and VW TDI has cut back on their production in the U.S. And………………….Ford and a few others have already said they are looking to drop their new diesel lines for 2010.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:17 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

And………………….Ford and a few others have already said they are looking to drop their new diesel lines for 2010.

Of course they are. Anything that might not have a 200% profit margin (that the public is FINALLY starting to recognize) the big 3 don't want to make. I'm surprised at VW, other than the economic recession / depression here, they haven't been able to make ENOUGH TDIs for our market.

Now, if they would only bring the I-5 TDI in the Touareg here, or better yet, sell that older design to Jeep for the Wrangler or Rubicons... Oooh.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:45 pm

geordi wrote:

Now, if they would only bring the I-5 TDI in the Touareg here

That was the plan until the economy started going south. Now VW is seriously rethinking if they want to introduce the Touareg into the U.S. And the current price of diesel fuel compared to the cost of gasoline also factors in. Seriously, how many Americans will actually buy a diesel option for $2,000 - $4,000 dollars more when gas is significantly cheaper. In a stressful economy, people are thinking about practical spending.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:44 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

geordi wrote:

Now, if they would only bring the I-5 TDI in the Touareg here

That was the plan until the economy started going south. Now VW is seriously rethinking if they want to introduce the Touareg into the U.S. And the current price of diesel fuel compared to the cost of gasoline also factors in. Seriously, how many Americans will actually buy a diesel option for $2,000 - $4,000 dollars more when gas is significantly cheaper. In a stressful economy, people are thinking about practical spending.

Remember the hybrid option costs twice as much as diesel option with cars.

I have not seen any Hybrid options for 1/2 or 3/4 ton trucks, but I would bet they are more.

Over the road drivers (Light Medium and Heavy Duty trucks) and Construction contractors who do a lot of miles often see the bottom line with greater clarity than most of the desk jockeys who only commute to work and take few trips per year. Problems with Gasoline Vs Diesel is the artificially low price of Gasoline and higher price of Diesel that should be $0.10 to $0.25 per gallon cheaper. Another is a Political/Emotional stigma against Diesel based upon over fueled engines blowing soot into the air years ago before the technology gave us more torque with less vibration for the buck. Add to that the GM screw up with the pre X block 5.7L diesel that were junk.
Now the Auto companies are in survival mode and when that happens, the Bean Counters are king and all they do is cut. When things do turn around it will be a big chess game and the R&D files will be retrieved to see what will put the car companies ahead of their competition. If Diesel owners hang on across the board and refuse to buy gassers, they may get the message and reactivate their programs for light diesels. If Dodge sells their 1500 diesels, they may make the move and go.

Fulltimer · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:12 pm

What ever happened to the story of one of the diesel companies making a small motor for cars and SUV's? Maybe Cummins?

Terry

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:26 pm

Fulltimer wrote:

What ever happened to the story of one of the diesel companies making a small motor for cars and SUV's? Maybe Cummins?

Terry

EPA must be a BIG BAD PEDOPHILE GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION, that is all I can think of.

SINCE THEY CAN'T GO AFTER KIDS, THEY PICK ON SMALL DIESELS.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:24 pm

Warp2diesel, I agree but I’m not sure if we’re going to see many new diesels hit the market other than the ones that we have already seen. So far, it looks like Dodge is still pushing forward with their ¼ ton diesel………… But we have to keep in mind that the sales are getting worse each month. There’s got to be a breaking point when the auto manufactures are going to say, “enough is enough.”

Terry, all the talk about making small engine placements to fit in many platforms has disappeared. I’m sure most plans have been put on hold.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:04 pm

The diesel demand is not as big as you think here in the US,it is very small and 95% are looking for 1ton+ pickups for pulling power and not micro cars that are overpriced.You may think the demand is there,but that is just your and a select few's point of view,might help by taking the blinders off.Poeple who do some research when buying a mpg car pass on diesel most of the time due to the higher initial cost and higher maintenance costs and poor resale values.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:57 pm

When you have people who can't balance a check book, how can you expect them to look at the bottom line.

Gasser 25 mpg at $1.89 gal = $0.0756/mile

Diesel 40 mpg at $2.39 gal= $0.05975/mile

$2.39 diesel fuel = $1.434 Gasoline if it were sold by the BTU.

Remember when our CRDs were priced out, stripped versions were never ordered in by the dealers, they loaded them up. Some of the gassers had a higher price than some of the CRDs. So don't give the big price differential, it is apples to oranges.

OTR truckers and haulers see this advantage (and can balance a check book). For those of us who take long commutes like my 42 miles each way to Midway airport or haul loads like trailers, we see it too. Business people who deliver refrigerators and washer dryers locally don't need the advantages of diesel and (can also balance a check book) will go to plug in recharge when they are available. People who commute short distances should line up for the Chevy Volt and remember to plug it in every few days. When they want to take a long road trip, they can visit the local car rental agency.

For those who are out to either break rocks or their jeeps (tjkj2002), who cares.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:25 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

When you have people who can't balance a check book, how can you expect them to look at the bottom line.

Gasser 25 mpg at $1.89 gal = $0.0756/mile

Diesel 40 mpg at $2.39 gal= $0.05975/mile

$2.39 diesel fuel = $1.434 Gasoline if it were sold by the BTU.

Remember when our CRDs were priced out, stripped versions were never ordered in by the dealers, they loaded them up. Some of the gassers had a higher price than some of the CRDs. So don't give the big price differential, it is apples to oranges.

OTR truckers and haulers see this advantage (and can balance a check book). For those of us who take long commutes like my 42 miles each way to Midway airport or haul loads like trailers, we see it too. Business people who deliver refrigerators and washer dryers locally don't need the advantages of diesel and (can also balance a check book) will go to plug in recharge when they are available. People who commute short distances should line up for the Chevy Volt and remember to plug it in every few days. When they want to take a long road trip, they can visit the local car rental agency.

For those who are out to either break rocks or their jeeps (tjkj2002), who cares.

Figure in routine maintance and that 40mpg diesel becomes very expensive compared to even a 10mpg gas vehicle.OTR rigs are diesel since that was what diesels where ment to do,tow heavy loads.Kinda notice there is no gas OTR trucks.I bet my total operating cost has been far less for the last 7 years,including gas,then your CRD's for 2-3 years.

Offroading is what a Jeep is ment for,go get a crv or your tdi for mall crawling and save the Jeep name some disgrace

.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:03 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

warp2diesel wrote:

When you have people who can't balance a check book, how can you expect them to look at the bottom line.

Gasser 25 mpg at $1.89 gal = $0.0756/mile

Diesel 40 mpg at $2.39 gal= $0.05975/mile

$2.39 diesel fuel = $1.434 Gasoline if it were sold by the BTU.

Remember when our CRDs were priced out, stripped versions were never ordered in by the dealers, they loaded them up. Some of the gassers had a higher price than some of the CRDs. So don't give the big price differential, it is apples to oranges.

OTR truckers and haulers see this advantage (and can balance a check book). For those of us who take long commutes like my 42 miles each way to Midway airport or haul loads like trailers, we see it too. Business people who deliver refrigerators and washer dryers locally don't need the advantages of diesel and (can also balance a check book) will go to plug in recharge when they are available. People who commute short distances should line up for the Chevy Volt and remember to plug it in every few days. When they want to take a long road trip, they can visit the local car rental agency.

For those who are out to either break rocks or their jeeps (tjkj2002), who cares.

Figure in routine maintance and that 40mpg diesel becomes very expensive compared to even a 10mpg gas vehicle.OTR rigs are diesel since that was what diesels where ment to do,tow heavy loads.Kinda notice there is no gas OTR trucks.I bet my total operating cost has been far less for the last 7 years,including gas,then your CRD's for 2-3 years.

Offroading is what a Jeep is ment for,go get a crv or your tdi for mall crawling and save the Jeep name some disgrace

.

TJKJ, I have to ask you this:

As someone who obviously does not own a diesel, what exactly are these "higher maintenance costs" that you keep saying we diesel owners have?

I have owned diesels, gas vehicles, RV, motorcycle, boat (ok, a little one with an electric motor), hybrids, AND sports cars.
The one with the highest maintenance? Either the sports car from breaking parts, or the ELECTRIC BOAT.
The RV shouldn't even be in the list, but ignoring all it's other systems and just looking at the drive engine - It would be a close second to the boat.

The boat needed a new battery at least twice per year. Cost, about $75 each. The RV chews up accessory belts like they are licorice, about 2k-3k miles per belt. It's a hot engine bay, and not the best design for such a hard working GAS engine. But thankfully, it doesn't see that much mileage per year.

The diesel? Hmm... Routine maintenance...

Oil changes: 5k-10k between changes, cost about $30 for materials. Labor is me.
gas: Same cost, but 5k MAX even with synth.

Fuel filters: 12k schedule or until-they-get-plugged (could be MUCH longer) cost about $5 for a Stanadyne or $30 for a Mopar
Gas: Do 'normal' people ever change them unless they plug? Costs about $15.

Hmm... What else?
Belts: about the same, both in lifespan and cost
tranny fluids: ditto, but lifespan of the diesel fluid *could* be MUCH longer, i.e. the VW "lifetime" 100k fluid.
Plugs.. Oops, diesel's NEVER need these.
Glow plugs? Replace as needed, not a "maintenance" item like spark plugs.
Timing belts... Ok, here's the big one. Yes, diesel timing belts are a big "maintenance" item. BUT! gassers have a timing belt too. The difference is the expected lifespan of the ENGINE is usually less than the 120k-150k that a belt will last, or the 200k of a chain.

How do I know the lifespan of a CHAIN system? My v8 powered Lincoln snapped it's timing chain in the driveway, and the mechanic found it in the oil pan. The car was just shy of 160k at that point, and he told us that a chain will usually fail at about 200k. LONG after most people in the USA have gotten a new car.

So... Where are these "higher costs" except in the minds of the sheeple, based on the profiteering of evil service managers that WANT people to think that diesels have more advanced maintenance! It is in their interest to keep the sheeple from knowing that not only are the REAL costs for the materials the same, but the diesel will require LESS maintenance over the same 100k time period!

Please stop telling people that diesels have higher maintenance or higher costs to own / operate. It just isn't supported by the facts.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:59 am

geordi wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

warp2diesel wrote:

When you have people who can't balance a check book, how can you expect them to look at the bottom line.

Gasser 25 mpg at $1.89 gal = $0.0756/mile

Diesel 40 mpg at $2.39 gal= $0.05975/mile

$2.39 diesel fuel = $1.434 Gasoline if it were sold by the BTU.

Remember when our CRDs were priced out, stripped versions were never ordered in by the dealers, they loaded them up. Some of the gassers had a higher price than some of the CRDs. So don't give the big price differential, it is apples to oranges.

OTR truckers and haulers see this advantage (and can balance a check book). For those of us who take long commutes like my 42 miles each way to Midway airport or haul loads like trailers, we see it too. Business people who deliver refrigerators and washer dryers locally don't need the advantages of diesel and (can also balance a check book) will go to plug in recharge when they are available. People who commute short distances should line up for the Chevy Volt and remember to plug it in every few days. When they want to take a long road trip, they can visit the local car rental agency.

For those who are out to either break rocks or their jeeps (tjkj2002), who cares.

Figure in routine maintance and that 40mpg diesel becomes very expensive compared to even a 10mpg gas vehicle.OTR rigs are diesel since that was what diesels where ment to do,tow heavy loads.Kinda notice there is no gas OTR trucks.I bet my total operating cost has been far less for the last 7 years,including gas,then your CRD's for 2-3 years.

Offroading is what a Jeep is ment for,go get a crv or your tdi for mall crawling and save the Jeep name some disgrace

.

TJKJ, I have to ask you this:

As someone who obviously does not own a diesel, what exactly are these "higher maintenance costs" that you keep saying we diesel owners have?

I have owned diesels, gas vehicles, RV, motorcycle, boat (ok, a little one with an electric motor), hybrids, AND sports cars.
The one with the highest maintenance? Either the sports car from breaking parts, or the ELECTRIC BOAT.
The RV shouldn't even be in the list, but ignoring all it's other systems and just looking at the drive engine - It would be a close second to the boat.

The boat needed a new battery at least twice per year. Cost, about $75 each. The RV chews up accessory belts like they are licorice, about 2k-3k miles per belt. It's a hot engine bay, and not the best design for such a hard working GAS engine. But thankfully, it doesn't see that much mileage per year.

The diesel? Hmm... Routine maintenance...

Oil changes: 5k-10k between changes, cost about $30 for materials. Labor is me.
gas: Same cost, but 5k MAX even with synth.

Fuel filters: 12k schedule or until-they-get-plugged (could be MUCH longer) cost about $5 for a Stanadyne or $30 for a Mopar
Gas: Do 'normal' people ever change them unless they plug? Costs about $15.

Hmm... What else?
Belts: about the same, both in lifespan and cost
tranny fluids: ditto, but lifespan of the diesel fluid *could* be MUCH longer, i.e. the VW "lifetime" 100k fluid.
Plugs.. Oops, diesel's NEVER need these.
Glow plugs? Replace as needed, not a "maintenance" item like spark plugs.
Timing belts... Ok, here's the big one. Yes, diesel timing belts are a big "maintenance" item. BUT! gassers have a timing belt too. The difference is the expected lifespan of the ENGINE is usually less than the 120k-150k that a belt will last, or the 200k of a chain.

How do I know the lifespan of a CHAIN system? My v8 powered Lincoln snapped it's timing chain in the driveway, and the mechanic found it in the oil pan. The car was just shy of 160k at that point, and he told us that a chain will usually fail at about 200k. LONG after most people in the USA have gotten a new car.

So... Where are these "higher costs" except in the minds of the sheeple, based on the profiteering of evil service managers that WANT people to think that diesels have more advanced maintenance! It is in their interest to keep the sheeple from knowing that not only are the REAL costs for the materials the same, but the diesel will require LESS maintenance over the same 100k time period!

Please stop telling people that diesels have higher maintenance or higher costs to own / operate. It just isn't supported by the facts.

I'm not talking about other vehicles I'm talking just my Gas KJ compared to your CRD,Looks like you just added about $500-$1000 to your operating cost with your blown turbo :wink:

.I've worked on diesels for over 9 years and they are more costly to maintain and operate,I'm not just talking out of my stupid,I do have experience.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:37 am

We are talking about MAINTENANCE, not operating costs. Maintenance implies a schedule of replacement. I wouldn't consider a blown turbo or a blown transmission as a "maintenance" item, that is a repair. Would you do anything with a turbo that was working? Doubtful.

If you are working on diesels, which ones? It's impossible to compare apples to apples if you are working on big class 8 trucks. As you correctly said, there aren't any gas versions that big.

Side by side in equivalent usage, I can't see how the diesel could be more expensive unless the labor is where the difference is. Diesels have always run longer intervals, which equates to less cost over a similar timeframe. It's also incorrect to compare maintenance costs over the "expected lifespan" of the engine, b/c a diesel can easily do 5 times the life of a gasser. Of course the "lifespan costs" will be higher.

clackclack · **Posted:** Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:51 am

I've driven a few diesels and plenty of gasser... I'd say it comes down to make and model; not as much diesel or gasser. To give range:

Highest: Porsche 928 GTS owned 4 years ~$2500 per year repairs
Mid-High: 2000 VW Passat Wagon owned 3 years ~$1000 per yr est. (under warranty)
Middle: Porsche 911 SC owned 4 years ~$60 per yr (I needed to replace headlights and turn signal switch)
Mid-low: VW Jetta TDI <3 years owned ~$20 per yr (got some bad gas that gelled, decided to replace fuel filter)
Lowest: 1987 mazda 323 owned 4 years $0 per yr (drove this trough college... even ran into a few things, rarely changed oil, went 115K miles before sold)

As for maintenance the TDI is actually cheaper than the gasser, you can see it in your manual. The TDI actually skips over gasser maintenance... longer intervals.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:29 am

Poor resale value? Have you checked the asking prices for used VW TDI's lately? Pretty frakkin good when a 10 year old TDI with well over 100K miles will list for 50% or more of the original sticker, and be sold literally within days of the ad going up.

dtempler · **Posted:** Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:20 pm

So did we ever figure out if international is buying Jeep

International Buys Jeep

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