I have Shudder at 63mph while going uphill

woodtick · **Posted:** Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:29 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

woodtick wrote:

racertracer wrote:

I found out that the original tranny filters were not replaced.

WTF?????

The pan does not need to be removed to replace the TC or front pump.
As I recall LONG ago is was said one feature of the redesigned front pump was to reduce air leaks :juggle:

I do believe that one of the purposes of replacing the TC, trans cooler/ A/C condenser, and front pump is due to TC clutch debris being pushed thru the system, so I assume that a fluid and filter change are part of this recall service. They did with mine.

Checking the bolts on the starter and cross member to see if a wrench was even laid on them would tell you if the trans ever actually was lowered to perform this work.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:11 am

Joe Romas wrote:

woodtick wrote:

racertracer wrote:

I found out that the original tranny filters were not replaced.

WTF?????

The pan does not need to be removed to replace the TC or front pump.
As I recall LONG ago is was said one feature of the redesigned front pump was to reduce air leaks :juggle:

Yes the TC can be replaced without dropping the pan. The transmission filter plugs directly into the front pump. You won't be removing the pump without dropping the pan and removing the filter...unless it involves the use of a sawzall.

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racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:12 pm

Ok so tomorrow morning the CRD goes back to the dealer with the following 6 day observations of the transmission with new TC and gaskets.

1. Abrupt and abnormal engine shut down in the morning when the transmission is placed into drive or reverse. This happens quickly soon after the car has been started and has been sitting overnight for over 12 hours. this happened again this morning.

2. When the engine reaches optimal operating temperature and while driving on the highway at highway speeds, you can feel a mild wobbling shutter at 35 to 45 mph, then a slight increase in shutter at 50 to 60 mph, then a shake / wobble when the transmission is fully locked up and reaches high speeds. This happens most often when the vehicle reaches higher speeds above 75 - 80 mph.

3. When I let off of the throttle and speed begins to decrease, I can feel more shake and slight shudder until the speed decreases below 50 mph.

4. When the transmission is fully warmed up and I am returning home from a long drive with the windows closed to obscure exterior noise and the vehicle slows down to a full stop, there is a continuous hard surface tapping / clicking coming from under the car near the front of the transmission that was not present before. If one places the transmission in park or neutral, the tapping may or may not go away.

5. At times when stopped, with the transmission in drive and the foot on the brake, the vehicle lurches back and forth …. Sometimes it pulsates when I am stopped at intersections, but by placing the transmission in neutral or park this condition is eliminated. The tachometer does not fluctuate while it is doing this.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:01 pm

For what my :2cents:

may or may not be worth:
1. Prior to installing my Suncoast along with a full tranny service including new ATF+4, new filters, and the transgo kit I experienced this on a relatively frequent basis after the vehicle had been parked overnight or for a workday. Typical symptoms were either the tranny would not engage or if it did I could drive about 100-200' and then experience a "hard" engine shutdown (best I can describe is a rather abrupt engine stall) which might or might not activate the CEL (no I have no clue what the codes were - the CEL would go away after about 5 restarts) but upon restart the vehicle would run fine. I'm essentially 100% sure this was fluid drain back (an ancient DCJ issue going back at least as far as a 1st gen minivan) and the interim 100% effective cure was to crank the vehicle up; idle in neutral (not Park - per the FSM fluid pumps faster in neutral than Park) at 1500rpm for 10-15 seconds; and then drive - If the 1st tranny engagement did not feel perfect repeat the idle cycle. Note the problem was somewhat intermittant but routine. On that basis IMHO at least part of your problem is related to fluid drain back or fluid circulation. Sources may include not enough fluid; bad out of the box filter(s); pump problem; not ATF+4; crud in the lines; etc.
4. sure sounds, no pun intended, like those pesky TC/flywheel bolts either too long or backing out due to no Loctite.

Other symptoms sure seem to be related to the above.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:23 am

Thanks Papa

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:58 am

The Chrysler shop foreman determined that the recently installed TC is faulty.

A new TC has been ordered and is on its way with a brand new OEM sturdier transmission pump.

The transmission filters will not be replaced, according to the shop foreman, the filters are not the problem and are not covered under warranty.

I have pictures of the transmission in pieces on the shop table, and while it's apart other parts of the transmission are being inspected for possible problems.

I was informed that the Pump lists for over 900 dollars.

Not sure what this means, but the new specified OEM transmission pump is a 2 stage pump and only one side of the pump will be put to use in this application.

One week wait time.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:12 pm

Regardless of any debate over whether or not the filters are 1) part of the problem or 2) covered by warranty I'd strongly recommend your response be something along the lines of "ok if that's the case what's the extra charge in parts and labor to remove the old filters and install new ones". Given that the tranny is appart the total cost should be parts and maybe 15 minutes of added labor. IMHO it's beyond silly to go to all this trouble and not replace ca. $50 in filters even if you have to pay for it.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:26 pm

The flat filter has to come out any way for the pump removal, so it would not be that much extra effort to change them.

I paid $300 from moparpartsonline for my front pump. I paid a local tranny shop to install it...2 hours labor for something that probably takes 30 minutes based on what I read online and in the service manual.

According to the service manual, the pump is two stage where it uses two gear pumps to generate pressure. Once spinning at a speed that enables one gear pump to provide sufficient pressure and flow, the second disengages to reduce parasitic losses. It doesn't make sense to disable this capability.

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racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:28 pm

Papa, I suggested exactly that to the shop foreman and he said that right now because they want to rule out all possible causes, they (the shop foreman and HQ) want to see if this repair doesn't cure the problem.

They want to make sure that the TC and Pump replacement is the problem before they replace the filters.

But it will be on my dime if they do.

I don't mind really, I just want it done right.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:21 pm

Tell them that is arse-backwards way of ruling something out, akin to replacing the entire interior because someone dropped a french fry.

The filters are consumable parts, and sure, it might not be considered a "warranty" item by itself, HOWEVER... Under the warranty coverage for the ACTUAL COVERED COMPONENT - It should be part of the procedure, and quite possibly also a requirement in the actual repair instructions.

Are they going to re-use the old fluid too? This is tripping over dollars to pick up pennies. I would also be highly suspect about the "separating the pump" comment that he made. I do not believe that is part of the process, but I will admit to not having any direct knowledge of this system.

You might want to give a call up the food chain to the regional Chrysler rep and ask about this job. Something seems decidedly fishy about this.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:39 pm

They want to do the $1000 fix first to determine if the $100 fix is worth doing???????????

This site is so good at inspiring confidence in the dealership's decision making process......
:5SHOTS:

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:10 am

The logic of the shop foreman "Papa, I suggested exactly that to the shop foreman and he said that right now because they want to rule out all possible causes, they (the shop foreman and HQ) want to see if this repair doesn't cure the problem. They want to make sure that the TC and Pump replacement is the problem before they replace the filters." totally escapes me. If the problem goes away after installing the new part, new fluid (at least I assume they are not extending their "logic" to reusing the old fluid), and new filters (the latter on your nickel) then what difference does it make whether the cause was a bad part (e.g. the one they say is bad), bad fluid, or bad filters. I suppose their thought process might be if the new part doesn't fix the problem then they will take it back and reinstall the part it replaced and try to throw some other part at the problem but....

Sorry could not resist.

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:05 pm

Up-date: The new torque converter and the new transmission front pump did not resolve the abrupt engine shut down at first start up.

The dealer will be replacing the flow control valve.

No indication that they plan on replacing the filters.

I will demand that the filters be changed when I speak to them tomorrow.

woodtick · **Posted:** Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:19 pm

Only in a Jeep :banghead:

I would be so frustrated. :evil:

I have been so frustrated. :evil:

Urge to kill mad. :dead:

This is exactly the reason that, at least prior to Fiat buying Chrysler, that there sales were way down, even behind Hyundai and KIA. My experiences with most of the Jeep service departments I've dealt with made me seriously consider not buying another Jeep. If there had been a good alternative to the CRD I probably would have gone another way. I hope they get their excrement together and take good care of you.

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:43 pm

Well, I don't mind at all .... I may get a new transmission out of this logic.

Who knows, maybe even a new engine if the logic spills over.

I've told them everything I learned from this forum about what the problems could be with this transmission and what to look for, but they just don't listen.

user113 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:40 am

But, with their track record so far, would you really trust them to replace YOUR engine?

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:08 am

Update: The dealer replaced the filters, a flow back valve and the torque converter again.

That will be torque converter number 4 for this CRD so far.

Several technicians test drove it and it again experienced an abrupt hard shut down when first placed into drive.

They decided that they will be replacing the torque converter with the old F37 torque converter replacement.

:dizzy:

I wonder if I can ask for a total power train replacement now that the vehicle has eaten 5 Torque converters?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:20 am

They are completely clueless and now are just throwing random parts at it.

The odds of a torque converter being bad out of the box... Not sure. Could be high, could be low. The odds of 2+ of ANY part being bad out of the box IN A ROW... Astronomical against.

They still haven't found the source of the problem, obviously. Unfortunately, I don't know what COULD be the source to offer any pointers. I would have said the TC still, or something in the hydraulic system connecting to the TC / transmission, b/c the hard stalling is related to fluid pressure. If you don't have any pressure, the TC can't unlock and the transmission can't release the gears.

Maybe the valve body is the problem? On the VW Jetta TDIs, the valve body in the automatic transmissions would develop microcracks in between the solenoids, and it would dump the fluid pressure back to the pan - The result of this was rough shifting and eventual transmission failure by wearing out the gearset. I don't know, I'm grasping at straws here.

How are you feeling these days about replacing your wrecked CRD... With another CRD? :banghead:

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:33 am

geordi wrote:

How are you feeling these days about replacing your wrecked CRD... With another CRD? :banghead:

If they get it running right, I'll feel great.

Right now I'm self medicating.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:16 pm

The valve body is something I replaced in mine as well and I was going to suggest it as a potential issue. You could inquire they take a look it as well. In reality it is the last major part left...unless it is something related to the solenoid assembly.

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I have Shudder at 63mph while going uphill

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