Timing belt tensioner

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:50 am

Mr Clarkson, Thats what you get for insulting us with that "treacherous holiday of traitors" nonsense. :goink:

Perhaps you might recall that us yanks didn't hold such a grudge when someone was lobbing explosives in your direction a few decades back? :goink:

Anyway - white smoke is certainly a sign of cold cylinders and condensation. It is also an indicator of incomplete combustion from possibly air in the fuel.

Start it up again, DON'T open the fuel rail anymore, and quit molesting it while it idles for at least 5 minutes. It might take longer to purge the air, but it WILL do it eventually, and smooth out. The air in the fuel rail compresses differently than the fuel, which creates shockwaves and uneven pressures when the pump tries to increase the pressure when you tried to raise the RPM. As the pump tried to raise the rail pressure from 5000, it wasn't able to evenly do it, which is why the RPM shot up - pressure spike.

It will take a lot longer than you think for all the air to be purged out.

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

geordi wrote:

Mr Clarkson, Thats what you get for insulting us with that "treacherous holiday of traitors" nonsense. :goink:

Perhaps you might recall that us yanks didn't hold such a grudge when someone was lobbing explosives in your direction a few decades back? :goink:

Anyway - white smoke is certainly a sign of cold cylinders and condensation. It is also an indicator of incomplete combustion from possibly air in the fuel.

Start it up again, DON'T open the fuel rail anymore, and quit molesting it while it idles for at least 5 minutes. It might take longer to purge the air, but it WILL do it eventually, and smooth out. The air in the fuel rail compresses differently than the fuel, which creates shockwaves and uneven pressures when the pump tries to increase the pressure when you tried to raise the RPM. As the pump tried to raise the rail pressure from 5000, it wasn't able to evenly do it, which is why the RPM shot up - pressure spike.

It will take a lot longer than you think for all the air to be purged out.

Thanks for the response geordi.

So you think the white smoke is a temporary symptom of air remaining in the fuel system that should purge itself out after many minutes of idling?

If so, I'll continue to run it and hope it improves.

Thanks.

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

I've run it for two sets of ten minutes but there has been no improvement.

I dare not run it any longer as the neighbours would undoubtedly complain of the smoke emanating from my garage. Maybe somebody will think it is a suicide attempt.

It is certainly fuel causing the smoke as was suggested by geordi as the smoke stings my eyes and is now noticeably smelling of diesel. Therefore, at least it is not a cylinder head problem.

It is also difficult to start too; i didn't write that before I don't think. I am surmising that if one or more injectors were at fault it would also produce smoke from the faulty cylinder(s) but perhaps not be difficult to start every time whereas air in the fuel perhaps would make it difficult to start. Would anybody agree?

Either way, that is at least 20 minutes of idling now and I have a headache from the smoke it is producing.

Maybe a couple of pints and a another 10 minutes later will help.

Does anybody have experience of this and if so, how long has it taken others to purge their engines as I can't leave it running indefinitely and must consider a cut-off time before investigating faulty injectors?

Thanks.

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

I am at the stage of doing the unthinkable and having a somebody from a workshop come and investigate.

There's still white smoke from the exhaust so if there is air in the fuel system it isn't purging.

I replaced the fuel filter just in case it was causing some resistance to flow but that to shows no improvement, I beld the system and started with ease but the white smoke persists.

The engine management light is on so maybe a DTC could lead somewhere with an outcome.

It is such a shame as I was so close yet so far.

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:09 pm

Pull the CEL code!! Don't give in!

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

arengant wrote:

Pull the CEL code!! Don't give in!

Thanks.

Is there any way to obtain the CEL code(s) using an ignition sequence or must they be obtained via diagnostic equipment from a workshop?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:05 pm

The time needed to truly purge the air can vary greatly. IIRC, when I had opened my fuel system during the teardowns, I didn't have too long to wait, but I was also cranking it with the #4 cracked for a burst or two, then sealing it up again. Even then, it still ran like crap until it smoothed out. I also tried to keep all the parts generally in the same orientation as they were when installed - don't drain the rail unless you have to, and all that.

How old is the filter? First or second gen fuel head? You might want to consider briefly running it with an "IV Bottle" of fresh fuel going directly into the after-filter hose. You won't hurt anything by not filtering for a few minutes, but the easier flow of fuel might help chase out those bubbles which I'm sure are in place.

It might also help to give the engine something to do for a little bit - maybe a short drive at low speeds to force the issue? If you have put in a fresh filter, did you pre-fill it with clean diesel? On reassembly, did you pre-set the injection pump so the mark was pointing right at the timing mark under that bolt at the 8 o'clock postion?

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:16 pm

There is a key trick that works sometime on 2005 not 06 (on-off on-off on -off read cluster). There are code readers you can buy including software for smart phones but I am not sure on what you have available there.

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:20 pm

geordi wrote:

On reassembly, did you pre-set the injection pump so the mark was pointing right at the timing mark under that bolt at the 8 o'clock postion?

X2
I know there is a debate on the pump being timed or not, but since there is a timing mark I would rather be safe than sorry.

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

Thanks for the responses.

Firstly, I aligned the injector pump mark (which was a cut-out notch) with a mark on the timing cover (which was also a cut-out vee shaped notch at about the 10 O'Clock position). Perhaps this is the incorrect mark.

I have seen on here that there has been some debate about whether or not to do it but I was of the opinion that it must serve some purpose otherwise the manufacturer wouldn't have gone to the expense of adding it. I thought the notch in the timing cover was the alignment mark and did not see a mark below the bolt (although maybe it was obscured by the rubber insert).

However, on the topic of whether this matters or not has me wondering something.

When I received the car back in pieces from the dealer the injector pump was not aligned to the 8 O'Clock nor 10 O'Clock position. Strangely, the camshafts (on the already removed valve cover) and the crank were. Unless, the pump sprocket was moved after the belt was removed it must've been set at a different location (it was more like the 4 O'Clock position). Now if the timing mark is irrelevant then it would make no difference if it was set misaligned from the mark nor should it matter if I set it to the mark.

At the moment it is set to what I thought was the timing mark but clearly all is not well.

As for the fuel filter that I replaced. I have no idea how old it is. The fuel that drained from it seemed to be a little discoloured (unless it was just the poor lighting it looked a little green).

I didn't have any contained diesel to pre-fill the new filter so I simply installed it then cranked then engine to lazily prime the dry filter. It started then cut-out as I'd expect. I bled the air by hand until fuel ran free and sure enough it started with ease. The white smoke was still present.

In fact, the smoke is so bad that I am reluctant to take it for a drive as I'd undoubtedly be stopped by the police for obscuring the roadway and they'd probably think the car had revolving number plates and an ejector seat.

I did mark with by hand the position of the injector pump when I received it back so as a last resort I could dismantle it all again and look for the 8 O'Clock timing mark or set it to the non-aligned position that I received it in and take a gamble but logic leads me away from that.

If the timing was out or indeed if it is just air why would that illuminate the CEL?

I'm wondering whether to pay somebody to check the CEL to give an indication before I take it apart again. I guess I'd kick myself if I've paid somebody for nothing and have to adjust the injector pump anyway but I'd also kick myself if i adjust it with no improvement and a lot more front end aggravation (sounds like a medical complaint).

As always, any shared expertise and opinions are most welcome. Thanks.

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:10 pm

With the Crankshaft marked at the 3 o'clock the pump should line up:

PER GDE: (the experts)

Chrysler should hire the members of this forum to rewrite the CRD FSM. Based on the number teeth on the pulleys (24 for crank, 48 for cam and 36 for IP) the pump timing make will line of with the crank every 3 revolutions. However, to get the entire system in the correct timing position it will occur every 6 revolutions (where crank is 90 degrees after TDC, cam pins line up and IP is pointed at the timing mark).

A pump with the wrong timing can lead to lower power and higher noise as posted earlier in the discussion. This is due to the internal pressure wave in the rail. If the wave pulse is not timed with an injection event correctly, the pressure at the injector nozzle might be lower than desired when the injector is energized. This may lead to a lower pilot injection quantity or a missed pilot, thus leading to more combustion noise (typical pilot duration is 180-200 micro seconds). The main injection may have a lower actual injected quantity as well due to out of phase pressure wave (main injection pulse width can range from 200-1200 micro seconds depending on load). These pulse widths are for the Liberty CRD, other common rail applications can be different, depending on injector flowrate, solenoid actuation vs. piezo actuation, number of injections (two pilots, main and post), etc.

Might not be wrong on yours and might not be the cause of your problems...

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:13 pm

And that happens every 3rd rotation so it might NOT have been correct when you got it from the dealer but the Crank and cams could have worked...

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:38 pm

I believe I was the first person to take mine apart since it left the factory. The pump pulley was not close to the marks when the crank mark was at 3 o'clock and the cam pins were in. I marked everything and put it back together as I found it. It did not run very well. I took it back apart and aligned the pump with the marks. (Keith strongly suggested this.)

It ran better than it ever had. (We have had it since 14K miles.) Now at about 115K.

DOC

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:53 pm

The timing mark would not be correct when you got the jeep back from the dealer, because it could be anywhere in the 6 rotation cycle to bring it back in line with the crank and cams. The mark you chose at 10, is not correct. The correct mark is the one Arengant pointed at, it is a bugger to see with the bolts in place. The mark is actually just barely covered by the bolt, so aim for the lower right corner of the bolt and you will have it set properly. This could easily be part of your problem, as you currently have the rail pressure following the injection events by a significant margin. This is throwing pressure into the rail after the injector has already closed and the next hasn't opened yet. That would easily create shock waves, which the injectors won't like.

I.E., the engine will run like crap. Seem familiar?

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

Thanks chaps (arengant, geordi & DOC4444).

I have just read your posts that were submitted while I was in my garage.

I was pondering whether to take it apart again or not..............and I did.

I found the timing mark that has been highlighted and I set it to that mark. It was partially obscured by the rubber insert and dirt so was tricky to spot and no wonder it wasn't so apparent first tie round. I had mistakenly set to to the notch above (about 10 O'Clock and perhaps another 25 degrees clockwise on the picture-this is probably totally insignificant).

Anyway, I set it and checked the timing by hand and then cranked it with the cover and all of the ancillaries off.

THERE'S NO SMOKE!

Thank goodness. I only run it briefly as the battery is not being charged and it is after midnight here now and don't want to make too much noise for too long.

I'm confident the smoke issue has now been rectified. Thanks ever so much for all of the input and I'm sure this would certainly dispel any queries about whether or not to align the mark. Do it! I was in that school of thought anyway but chose the wrong mark to begin with.

Being 1/3 bigger than the crank after two turns my hand drawn IP mark aligned so so it is as it was. Another turn would have aligned the notch & the line.

Problems still exist though as the "irregularity" that I felt when turning over by hand (as I've referred to in previous posts) is magnified greatly at idle speed (and no doubt beyond) as a knocking/vibration that transmits through to the passenger compartment.

To my mind this must be at least one worn crankshaft journal.

Perhaps if it was indeed poor lubrication that destroyed my rockers that may have caused excessive wear on the crank and maybe within the bores.

Has anybody encountered damaged rockers and excessive wear/poor lubrication?

Finally, the CEL is still on but may clear after a few running cycles.

Thanks.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:29 pm

So sorry to hear that your motor probably has something wrong that will require a teardown to find and correct.

I beseech you to STOP RUNNING it until it is torn down and rebuilt. Ask Geordi. He had a tapping noise that he thought was a top end problem. Next thing you know, a rod poked through the side of his block. You are in the UK, right? Check with the VM specialist in GB for the price of an exchange rebuilt shortblock. That and rockers and you should be in good shape. Ignore this and you may be left with little that is useable.

DOC

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:49 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

So sorry to hear that your motor probably has something wrong that will require a teardown to find and correct.

I beseech you to STOP RUNNING it until it is torn down and rebuilt. Ask Geordi. He had a tapping noise that he thought was a top end problem. Next thing you know, a rod poked through the side of his block. You are in the UK, right? Check with the VM specialist in GB for the price of an exchange rebuilt shortblock. That and rockers and you should be in good shape. Ignore this and you may be left with little that is useable.

DOC

WHAT. HE. SAID.

I will post more later, but you have a bottom end problem, I'm fairly certain. Continue idling or running the engine at your extreme peril. Mine idled for maybe 5 minutes after driving for 15 miles after developing the tapping... That 5 minutes was collectively over several attempts to solve the noise.

Then it made itself known - a hole on the side of the block, and one less CRD in my life.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

DOC4444 wrote:

So sorry to hear that your motor probably has something wrong that will require a teardown to find and correct.

I beseech you to STOP RUNNING it until it is torn down and rebuilt. Ask Geordi. He had a tapping noise that he thought was a top end problem. Next thing you know, a rod poked through the side of his block. You are in the UK, right? Check with the VM specialist in GB for the price of an exchange rebuilt shortblock. That and rockers and you should be in good shape. Ignore this and you may be left with little that is useable.

DOC

Wise words DOC4444.

As there'll be great time and expense in stripping, measuring, diagnosing and rebuliding the engine anyway I may as well take a calculated risk of an oil & filter change and get it up to to temperature to see how it finally sounds and feels. I may regret that.

A rod going through the block would be undesirable. I've only ever see that happen when a diesel engine was "running away" and burning the engine oil as fuel.

Unless an oil gallery becomes blocked and starves a particular area (which could naturally cause rapid wear and seizure) you'd expect the poor lubrication to deteriorate the performance but my problems happened instantly. There was no sign of wear, knocking or vibration and suddenly there was (which was the rockers and maybe then the noise of the rocker damage masked other lower end damage too). The oil warning light never once displayed although checking oil at the roadside with the dipstick did show it to be low (without waiting too long for it to drain to the sump).

I am in the UK so I could consult a specialist here about short motors but the expense of the individual parts would very soon exceed the value of the vehicle.

Jon_O · **Joined:** Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:22 pm **Posts:** 27

Thanks for the warning geordi.

There's not a tapping exactly but a knock/vibration (although noises and our descriptions of them are very subjective).

What caused yours rod to leave the cosy environment of it's cylinder? Low oil? Wrong oil?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:49 pm

Don't think that you will have the ability to get it up to temperature, that is taking a HUGE HUGE risk that just is not worth it.

The oil pressure light is a waste, it only will come on when you are completely OUT of oil, and even then... Probably not. It is located at the exit of the filter, which is directly after the oil pump. So as long as there is just enough oil to fill the filter, that light won't come on. Don't trust it ever.

Now, about the problem that caused my engine to fail. Twice. It wasn't low oil (I thought engine #1 might have been) and it wasn't low oil pressure, because I had a gauge probe mounted in the main gallery on the engine. It never lost oil or pressure. The tapping began suddenly, without any obvious reason - it just started tapping. The root cause in my estimation, is that the rod bearings on the crankshaft are not receiving enough oil because the passages are too small. The pressure in the main gallery at idle is only 18-20 psi, and only rises to 35psi at 70mph. This is not a very high oil pressure level. When the engine is cold, the main gallery pressure exceeds 110psi, the limit of the gauge I was using at the time.

I strongly suspect that you have the ignominy of having the first non-USA spec CRD to fail with the bottom end, the same way that many on this side of the pond have failed.

The block will most likely need to be removed to properly tear it down, but there is a chance that the oil pan can be removed with the engine still (mostly) installed. You may want to invest in a shop crane / engine hoist, it will most likely prove useful. Once the pan is down, this is a "tunnel" block design, so it is **supposed** to be capable of having the crankshaft removed while the engine is installed. Whether this is true or not... I have no idea.

Get some sleep, you will need your strength. And a very large supply of lager, I'd wager.

Timing belt tensioner

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