Help! Tough CRD decision

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:02 am

dirtmover wrote:

geordi wrote:

It could also be as low as 500-1k, j

I wouldn't let it go that low. There's about $300 in scrap metal there and there's a ton of stuff you should be able to easily part out e.g. the control modules.

...but, if it were me I'd have the timing cover off and take a quick peek in the cylinders with a borescope. Giving up on it with unknown issues is a sure fire way to attract bottom dollar for it.

Thing is that cylinders may look like new but the journals can be trashed. The safest way would be to take the whole thing apart and look what's in there. But I concur, 1000 bucks is too low, maybe more like 2-3000, especially that the block is in one piece. But to be absolutely positive this engine will have a long life, I'd personally want to look at the lower block, crankshaft, journals, etc and replace what's necessary.

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:10 am

May I ask a question?

What causes the turbo to dump oil into the exhaust? (I'm thinking improper cool down/Dino oil instead of synthetic)..bearing/sleeve failure.

Is there a way to tell before engine damage..like..a LARGE puff of smoke..shut off motor?

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:31 am

I thing the seal on the exhaust side goes bad. I know Geordi doesn't like the name "seal" but I can't find a better name... There is a lot of smoke from what I understand and if you have a pressure gauge with low pressure indicator and sound notification you may save the engine. Of course, if you see pressure drop in time that's a good sign and may help turn off the engine before damage occurs, but that means you'll need to constantly monitor the gauge...

Of course, if you don't have play on the impeller axle chances are this will never happen. Proper turbo cool down and periodic checks of the play will keep you safe.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:48 am

thermorex wrote:

dirtmover wrote:

geordi wrote:

It could also be as low as 500-1k, j

I wouldn't let it go that low. There's about $300 in scrap metal there and there's a ton of stuff you should be able to easily part out e.g. the control modules.

...but, if it were me I'd have the timing cover off and take a quick peek in the cylinders with a borescope. Giving up on it with unknown issues is a sure fire way to attract bottom dollar for it.

Thing is that cylinders may look like new but the journals can be trashed. The safest way would be to take the whole thing apart and look what's in there. But I concur, 1000 bucks is too low, maybe more like 2-3000, especially that the block is in one piece. But to be absolutely positive this engine will have a long life, I'd personally want to look at the lower block, crankshaft, journals, etc and replace what's necessary.

Yeah, I agree, if he's planning on fixing it up to keep then a full investigation would be prudent but in the context of the original question:

"Should he repair it? ... Or try and sell the CRD as is?"

Are you really suggesting that he digs into the bottom end to make this decision before looking at the easy stuff?

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:02 pm

dirtmover wrote:

thermorex wrote:

dirtmover wrote:

[quote="geordi"]It could also be as low as 500-1k, j

I wouldn't let it go that low. There's about $300 in scrap metal there and there's a ton of stuff you should be able to easily part out e.g. the control modules.

...but, if it were me I'd have the timing cover off and take a quick peek in the cylinders with a borescope. Giving up on it with unknown issues is a sure fire way to attract bottom dollar for it.

Thing is that cylinders may look like new but the journals can be trashed. The safest way would be to take the whole thing apart and look what's in there. But I concur, 1000 bucks is too low, maybe more like 2-3000, especially that the block is in one piece. But to be absolutely positive this engine will have a long life, I'd personally want to look at the lower block, crankshaft, journals, etc and replace what's necessary.

Yeah, I agree, if he's planning on fixing it up to keep then a full investigation would be prudent but in the context of the original question:

"Should he repair it? ... Or try and sell the CRD as is?"

Are you really suggesting that he digs into the bottom end to make this decision before looking at the easy stuff?[/quote]

The best way, considering costs, would be to do what you suggested and then sell it. Lol. This to avoid a possible low end issue as Geordi had. If he'll want to keep it, I'd say to tear down the sucker and make sure everything is in good shape.

Sure, he can leave the low end as is and listen to any noises, after he changes the rockers and belt, like piston slaps, etc. But being a Diesel engine, you'd really need to have a very high tuned ear to notice a difference, unless there is so much wear that it would be obvious. I'd probably make it work with the minimum costs and then sell it. If he had 10k offer, he may sell it for at least 9k in working condition. Or trade in for a different truck. Imo it's not worth the risk with low end issues. Low end issues would definitely lead faster to a catastrophe on a Diesel engine.

jjr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:40 am **Posts:** 19

Thx guys, the debate continues. My cousin is done with it, he 's ready to dump it but without knowing what is actually wrong he'll probably get lowballed!
If I understand what is being recommended the only way to know for sure is to pull the TB cover, if the belt is broken or has jumped we know that is the minimal issue, then rockers could be broken that would need to be checked and on top of that we still need to consider the bottom end correct? Let's assume the TB broke or jumped and we inspect the rockers and they are all fine, then we need to use a borescope to check the pistons or does the engine have to be pulled to check the bottom end? Just trying to get the most $$ out of it at this point.

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:41 pm

ArmyChief wrote:

May I ask a question?

What causes the turbo to dump oil into the exhaust? (I'm thinking improper cool down/Dino oil instead of synthetic)..bearing/sleeve failure.

Is there a way to tell before engine damage..like..a LARGE puff of smoke..shut off motor?

Very unlikely for a turbo to 'suddenly' fail and dump large quantities of oil into the exhaust, with no indication of impending failure - any failure will be preceeded by reduced BOOST levels:
- failure is resulted from damaged\galled bearings\turbine shaft = unable to achieve ^120,000rpm = lower-to-no BOOST pressures
- increasing failure with oil into the turbine would be blue vapors = super-heated liquid oil vaporized but below temperature of combustion
- increasing failure with oil into the turbine would be lower BOOST levels with black smoke into the exhaust = more fuel than air = uncombusted fuel = soot, black smoke mixed with blue unignited oil vapors
- Diesel-illiterate drivers taking advice from other Diesel-illiterate drivers = "Diesels are supposed to blow smoke - don't worry about it"
- result: 'What's my broke LIBBY worth? - Oh yeah, almost fergot: it's a Diesel..........I think"

jjr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:40 am **Posts:** 19

"Very unlikely for a turbo to suddenly fail and dump large quantities of oil into the exhaust, with no indication of impending failure - any failure will be proceeded by reduced BOOST levels":

Exactly!! My cousins wife drove the CRD another 30 miles ( downhill from Lake Tahoe) after hearing strange noises coming from the engine compartment and smoke blowing out the exhaust with decreased or very minimal boost, the last 2 miles uphill probably did the turbo in. As stated prior she also put gasoline in the vehicle and never checked any fluids. She was the death of this car :banghead:

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:11 pm

jjr wrote:

"Very unlikely for a turbo to suddenly fail and dump large quantities of oil into the exhaust, with no indication of impending failure - any failure will be proceeded by reduced BOOST levels":

Exactly!! My cousins wife drove the CRD another 30 miles ( downhill from Lake Tahoe) after hearing strange noises coming from the engine compartment and smoke blowing out the exhaust with decreased or very minimal boost, the last 2 miles uphill probably did the turbo in. As stated prior she also put gasoline in the vehicle and never checked any fluids. She was the death of this car :banghead:

Understand, still no intent of pointing finger, here, blame unassigned - unfortunately, she (generically speaking) was the targeted consumer for the KJ Diesel version, based on the popularity of the gasoline-fueled version with YAF's (chicks, in the vernacular, eh) - doubly unfortunate because gasoline-prejudiced CJ dealers and techs believed (and still believe) "we don' need no steenkin' Diesels in no Jeeps"(sic)

jjr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:40 am **Posts:** 19

gmctd wrote:

jjr wrote:

"Very unlikely for a turbo to suddenly fail and dump large quantities of oil into the exhaust, with no indication of impending failure - any failure will be proceeded by reduced BOOST levels":

Exactly!! My cousins wife drove the CRD another 30 miles ( downhill from Lake Tahoe) after hearing strange noises coming from the engine compartment and smoke blowing out the exhaust with decreased or very minimal boost, the last 2 miles uphill probably did the turbo in. As stated prior she also put gasoline in the vehicle and never checked any fluids. She was the death of this car :banghead:

Understand, still no intent of pointing finger, here, blame unassigned - unfortunately, she (generically speaking) was the targeted consumer for the KJ Diesel version, based on the popularity of the gasoline-fueled version with YAF's (chicks, in the vernacular, eh) - doubly unfortunate because gasoline-prejudiced CJ dealers and techs believed (and still believe) "we don' need no steenkin' Diesels in no Jeeps"(sic)

I didn't think you were. My point was, pull over, stop driving, make a call, she didn't care if she broke something, after the gasoline fiasco and the turbo, the car was taken away from her.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:28 pm

Having 30 miles of driving, even downhill, after or during a turbo failure virtually assures that there is significant bottom end damage. With respect to GMCTD's experiences, the turbo can fail with out any notice whatsoever. That was what happened to me, at full boost the turbine shaft seized from lack of lubrication because the oil was too cold and thick. At the time, I was too dumb to know what had just happened other then the "loss of boost" and didn't recognize that my engine had just lost the turbo as I misunderstood the cloud of smoke behind me as simply a popped boost hose. That had happened to me before recently, but this time it was different. Now, I was driving at full speed (passing someone) on a flat road when this happened, and after the pressure loss I coasted for about 30 seconds or so. I do believe it's possible to have driven 30 miles or so downhill after a mild turbo failure, but the serious damage that happened to my engine came to fruition on the test drive of about 10 to 12 miles after replacing the turbo.

The point of all this is such: you won't be able to inspect the bottom end at all without taking the engine out of the vehicle. There isn't any harm at this point in taking the fan out and opening the timing cover to take a look. That would be probably two hours or so for an inexperienced mechanic to get the parts out so that the timing belt set up is exposed. Then, checking against the pins, rotate the crankshaft by hand, and at least you'll have an answer on whether or not it was a timing skip that took out the rockers. But they're still in my mind would be a giant question mark about the bottom end.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:42 pm

jjr wrote:

gmctd wrote:

jjr wrote:

"Very unlikely for a turbo to suddenly fail and dump large quantities of oil into the exhaust, with no indication of impending failure - any failure will be proceeded by reduced BOOST levels":

Exactly!! My cousins wife drove the CRD another 30 miles ( downhill from Lake Tahoe) after hearing strange noises coming from the engine compartment and smoke blowing out the exhaust with decreased or very minimal boost, the last 2 miles uphill probably did the turbo in. As stated prior she also put gasoline in the vehicle and never checked any fluids. She was the death of this car :banghead:

Understand, still no intent of pointing finger, here, blame unassigned - unfortunately, she (generically speaking) was the targeted consumer for the KJ Diesel version, based on the popularity of the gasoline-fueled version with YAF's (chicks, in the vernacular, eh) - doubly unfortunate because gasoline-prejudiced CJ dealers and techs believed (and still believe) "we don' need no steenkin' Diesels in no Jeeps"(sic)

I didn't think you were. My point was, pull over, stop driving, make a call, she didn't care if she broke something, after the gasoline fiasco and the turbo, the car was taken away from her.

A bit too late unfortunately. That's why I don't let my wife drive this Crd, and she knows turbo cool down, looks at gauges, etc, but she is clueless if something happens as she hates the "fixing/diagnosing cars" topic to begin with and keeps telling me that my gauges distract her from driving, lol. This car is too sensitive and if you don't pay attention when something happens it may cost thousands in repairs. She is more happy to drive her 1.8 turbo Passat made in Tennessee though...

jjr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:40 am **Posts:** 19

geordi wrote:

Having 30 miles of driving, even downhill, after or during a turbo failure virtually assures that there is significant bottom end damage. With respect to GMCTD's experiences, the turbo can fail with out any notice whatsoever. That was what happened to me, at full boost the turbine shaft seized from lack of lubrication because the oil was too cold and thick. At the time, I was too dumb to know what had just happened other then the "loss of boost" and didn't recognize that my engine had just lost the turbo as I misunderstood the cloud of smoke behind me as simply a popped boost hose. That had happened to me before recently, but this time it was different. Now, I was driving at full speed (passing someone) on a flat road when this happened, and after the pressure loss I coasted for about 30 seconds or so. I do believe it's possible to have driven 30 miles or so downhill after a mild turbo failure, but the serious damage that happened to my engine came to fruition on the test drive of about 10 to 12 miles after replacing the turbo.

The point of all this is such: you won't be able to inspect the bottom end at all without taking the engine out of the vehicle. There isn't any harm at this point in taking the fan out and opening the timing cover to take a look. That would be probably two hours or so for an inexperienced mechanic to get the parts out so that the timing belt set up is exposed. Then, checking against the pins, rotate the crankshaft by hand, and at least you'll have an answer on whether or not it was a timing skip that took out the rockers. But they're still in my mind would be a giant question mark about the bottom end.

I hate beat a dead horse, do you still feel there is bottom end damage even though it's been driven without issue for 10k miles, it just took its time for the bearing to disintegrate or whatever happened?

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:19 pm

I looked again over your original post, you said there are 5000 miles post turbo replacement. This time the turbo seems ok and it seems the timing belt skipped some teeth. Just in case, check oil level and see if it's ok. Considering the above, chances are you just need a new timing belt plus water pump and pulleys and some rockers, best would be to replace the whole set. You'd also need injector crush washers and orings. With your work, you'll probably spend less than 1000. Idparts.com has everything you need.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:43 pm

Okay, I didn't realize there was that many miles after the turbo replacement. All of the failures I've heard about of the bottom have happened within 100 miles or less after turbo replacement. With that information in hand, I am more inclined to say that it is a timing belt issue rather than something more severe. That doesn't however mean that the rockers are also still okay. It definitely is worth the effort to take the fan out and remove the timing cover and check what happened to the belt. If it isn't in time, then the top will need to come off and the rockers will need to be replaced.

jjr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:40 am **Posts:** 19

geordi wrote:

Okay, I didn't realize there was that many miles after the turbo replacement. All of the failures I've heard about of the bottom have happened within 100 miles or less after turbo replacement. With that information in hand, I am more inclined to say that it is a timing belt issue rather than something more severe. That doesn't however mean that the rockers are also still okay. It definitely is worth the effort to take the fan out and remove the timing cover and check what happened to the belt. If it isn't in time, then the top will need to come off and the rockers will need to be replaced.

Awesome, great to hear we'll get that done and report back findings, thank you so much!!

Help! Tough CRD decision

Who is online