Believe what you want. I have experienced this several times. Can drive @ 20-30 miles at sustained high speed (65 mph) in even light rain (enough for wet road spray) and I can literally wring the water out of the filter element. It has absolutely nothing to do with airbox drainage or the "bathtub ring" some have noticed. It has to do with wet air being sucked through an absorbant filter, no different than getting the paper filter in your shop vac wet. This in itself is really not the whole problem and will clear itself qiuckly once driven in dry air. The resulting temporary intake constriction from the wet filter creates enough of a vaccume to draw motor oil through the turbo seals pumping it into the CAC.

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

I understand what you are trying to say about the filter. However, I have to revert back to my training concerning research results: If the information cannot be reproduced by others, it is suspect.

In fact, last night we had a tremendous storm that I drove though for about 15 mins at highway speed just before getting home. I checked the filter in the garage as soon as I got there and yes, it was damp (hell everything was damp) but it was not "soaked" to the point that I believe that air flow was restricted. Further, when driving in temps with saturated air (dew point close to air temp) and high humidity, the problem you are reporting should be worse than just in rainy conditions and I have seen none of that, myself.

In addition, it seems counterintuitive to me that if the filter were soaked with enough water to prevent air flow to the point that it caused enough negative pressure to pull oil throught the seals that either 1. there was a noticable loss of power 2. the engine would starve for air and shut down 3. the soaked filter would dry out almost immediatly.

I'm with VTDG on this also, as our CRD has been through rain and snow with no wet airfilter. We made national weather for the downpour the other day that the wife drove in and no wet filter, enough water drained off the Jeep to make a real mess in the garage. We got about 3.5" in less then an hour here at the house and 6" plus total for the day.

That said I do run the door screen over the front intake area of the grill as is seen here on one of the threads, but I doubt that woulod effect the water coming into the engine bay and intake but has stopped the bugs.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

It has nothing to do with what you "believe". The criteria for calling the air filter on a diesel clogged and in need of replacement is usually 20 inches of water vacuum. You can apply far more vacuum than this with your mouth on the soda straw of a thick milkshake.

You're talking very little differential pressure here, nowhere near enough to affect engine operation via seat-of-the-pants measurement. But, depending on the design of the turbo seals, it can be enough to start pulling oil across them.

True, a wet air filter will dry out. But while wet, it is causing a restriction and creating a vacuum that can pull oil across the seals. Several repeated episodes can add up to putting a significant amount of oil into the intake system. And depending on how wet the filter is, it could create a vacuum well above the 20 inches of water mentioned above.

In my case, I just pulled off the inlet tube going to the grille. Haven't seen any signs of water inside the filter housing since, and a lot less road dirt and bugs.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Well, you just did reproduce and confirm this. As you stated, when moisture sets into the filter element it should also clear relatively quickly. There is no way to know exactly what is going on inside that airbox at 2000 rpm, under load, while moving on the highway in the rain. Be assured that if the filter element is still damp when you looked, it was likely even more saturated while moving and having a large volume of air passing through. Following this modification, my filter element remains completely dry (not even damp) driving through rain that was hard enough to leave cars parked on the shoulder. My situation may be more extreme than most due to the fact I use the Jeep over other vehicles when I expect rain. How is your oil consumption and do you have oil in your CAC hoses?

Training of over 20 years of working with diesels engines tells me something is wrong with this induction system. Having witnessed virtually every possible type of diesel engine failure imaginable, can tell with confidence the issues associated partial airflow constrictions. Incidently, most diesels draw so much air and with such force that they are more likely to inhale their gaskeks and/or air filter element before stalling due to lack of air. Even a partial constriction will draw fluids (motor oil) and gasses (blowby) in quantitly through various seals and into the air intake system, especially with a closed crankcase vent.

Several owners on this forum have reported mechanical failures that would indicate the same situation, most notably "collapsed" CAC hoses and that video clip of the engine having convulsions that strongly indicate a constriction situation. IIRC, rainy/wet weather was noted in most of those descriptions. This modification was done with the prior knowledge of my Jeep service manager and the area technical support rep from DC in an effort to keep me from lemoning out of this vehicle (which I have more than enough evidence to do at any time). Both are watching this closely including obtaining the photos and doing oil consumption testing.

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Yeah. I never realized how important the air filter was until I asked my father-in-law about his 2000 Ford Excursion Diesel Powerstroke air filter. His user manual states it MUST be changed every 10,000 miles with no exceptions. It's also four times the surface area as ours (of course, so is the Powerstroke nearly 4x bigger).

All I want to know is this: is there a place on the internet with cheap enough OEM air filter prices to allow me to change my airfilter every 6,000 miles with my oil change and keep costs reasonable. I know our manual says we can go up to 12,500 miles - but I'm not willing to risk it anymore.

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'05 CRD Sport born on 06/20/05, bought on 9/23/05, L.O.S.T. on 9/27/05 - modding ever since:

Daystar 2.0" Lift, P255/70R16 Revos, Boulder Bars, Reese Front Hitch w/9k Hooks, Poison Spyder Rock Ring, MOPAR Skids/Bug Shield/Roof Rails/Mats, WARN Hitch Shackle(Rear), 10k Hitch Hook(Front), Custom Tilt/Slope Meter, Ammo Box Mod, Rotella T 5W-40.

I am not a mechanic, but a chemist and I understand the physical concepts involved. 20" of water would be approx. 5% drop in air pressure and you are entirely right, one can exert much more pressure on a straw in a milkshake. In fact the 5% limit for "clogging" is way below the pressure change with altitude one finds when going up over even the tiny mountains we have here in the east. It still is hard me to believe that a 5% differential in the pressure of air on the engine side vs the outside of the filter would cause oil seals to fail. Seems to me, that in cars I have had with oil pressure gauges, the pressure would change with engine speed much more than 5%. While those were not diesels, I have to assume (and I certainly could be wrong) that seals are seals and that there is nothing especially weak about diesel seals. In fact, considering the higher pressures needed for combustion/ignition without a spark as found in a diesel, the seals should be, if anything, more robust.

Having said all of the above, however, if a 5% differential in air pressure does cause oil to pulled out, we are all very very screwed (to use the scientific term). Only those living in the dessert then could expect their CRDs to last. I clearly don't believe that is the case and will need further convincing as 5% is such a low figure that just "normal" operation in (as I stated before) saturated air(or just humid conditions) would cause the clogging problem as there is "more" to consider than just partial pressures causing water deposition/clogging on the air filter. I have a hard time believing that normal driving condition variations would cause oil seal failure

But, that is just my take on this.

For you that have not experianced this or don't believe because not enough have reported the case, just last night I had to drive 15 minutes in a monsoon downpour. When I arrived at my destination, opened the air box and there was one quarter of an inch of water in it. I checked the air filter element and it was dry. If you look in the air box, there are two drain holes, but they are not placed correctly to allow all the water to drain because there are ridges in the bottom of the box in the form of a grid that do not allow all water to flow out. Additionally, the holes are very small.

Anyway, I figure a couple more holes will help the box drain better. Still, I have not had a wet air filter yet, but I have not had to drive hours in the rain.

Also, on my air filter was some oil blow-by residue near the MAF sensor area. I rotated the filter and there is some new residue in the area where the MAF resides. Anyone have any thoughts on what this contamination is? I should point out that it is on the filter toward the air box where air flow begins across the filter.

VT -

The seals being discussed here are the turboe seals, not the cylinder seals. When ytou are trying to seal something you can always to a better job if the two surfaces to be sealed are not moving relative to each other. And if they are moving, the faster one moves compared to the other the more exotic (and less effective) the seals must be, especially since the whole car is built to be profitable, not bulletproof. Since the turbo impeller is spinning extremely fast (educated guess here, imput appreciated) the seals for this are going to be that much more delicate.

Creating a vacuum on the suction side of the turbo (from a restricted air inlet) will expose those less-effective turbo seals to differentials that may easily exceed the bean-counters budget limit.

_________________
'05 CRD Silver Sport
As Delivered:
Sunroof, Tow, 700mi
Warranty:
EGRs, TC & Pump, EGR FCV
After-market:
Guages (5), PIAA duals, Hitch & side lights,
AeroTurbine, Fumoto, 3.7L Airbox, Revos, Steps,
Cargo Tray, Hitch Rack, Bike Rails, & Slush Mats

Tom:

I understand what you are saying about the shaft seals, but 5% causing failure? Seems that just a normal driving situation like strong acceleration which means a large air draw would cause a drop of more than 5% in air pressure (it is the pressure change afterall that moves the air though the filter in the first place). If 5% ruins the seals then, we really all are screwed.

You're right, hard acceleration would cause a reduction in airbox pressure, and higher differential pressure across the filter (and seals).

But if we are right in assuming some derelict DC Engineer under-engineered the CRD air filter (meaning, applied the same gasser filter) and then exposed the undersized filter to moisture (rain and/or humidity) by routing the inlet straight off the grill instead of from above the light, we might have added too many straws to this particular camels back...

Perhaps the filter could manage the CRD airflow demands, under ideal conditions. Perhaps the turbo seals can handle the differential created by hard acceleration through a clean filter. But when reality hits and the filter operates in non-ideal conditions (wet) I believe the whole thing snowballs. My uninformed opinion is that they cut corners at the end of the design:

Some early CRDs have the identical 3.7 air box inlet (above the light). All newer CRDs have a larger cross-section inlet to account for the larger air demand (guessing).

And to this day, our filters are the same as the gassers (right?). Unlike the other diesels in the market whcih get larger surface area filters.

The larger inlet was routed straight from the grill. Then was promptly diverted to behind the light (by use of that grill cover). This may have been an attempt to create directional changes to scrub out some water... In any case, from pictures I have seen of modifications that this reduced the air inlet size, not to mention the head loss created by such directional changes.

Makes sense to me that an engine so different from a gasser should have gotten better treatment with regard to something as important as combustion air flow. You know, with testing and actual research. Not guessing and finger-crossing...

Especially when it ends up (if we are right) destroying (maybe just damaging) a costly and vital piece of the engine (turbo).

The modification RFCRD has made with the drilled 4" PVC elbow inside the air box is the closest I've seen to a cyclone separator. This is a well-documented concept used throughout the industrial world to separate moisture and/or solids from a gas. Directional changes force the heavier liquid and solids outward while the lighter gases are forced to make a 180 turn to get to the outlet. That some highly paid slide-rule in Detroit couldn't make the same device and have it installed at the factory is beyond me.

_________________
'05 CRD Silver Sport
As Delivered:
Sunroof, Tow, 700mi
Warranty:
EGRs, TC & Pump, EGR FCV
After-market:
Guages (5), PIAA duals, Hitch & side lights,
AeroTurbine, Fumoto, 3.7L Airbox, Revos, Steps,
Cargo Tray, Hitch Rack, Bike Rails, & Slush Mats

Tom,
Everything you say about the filter and the "fix" may be true. However, if it is and we are all driving often in less than ideal conditions then one would expect a signifigant oil consumption problem. I have noted very few oil use issues here and in my personal Jeep, I use less than 2oz over 6k miles. I am not sure how much seal seepage can possibly occur, but since I believe that "normal" driving conditions would cause seal leakage in your scenario, I would think that oil consumption would be an issue as many now have a considerable number of miles (i'm at 29k) on the Jeep.

I suspect that we will only really know the answer to this issue when the CRDs have 70-100k miles. Turbo failure will of course be attributed to the driver not using a cool down period by DCX.

That all sounds right... especially DC ducking the failed turbo on Driver Error! Oh well!

I just hope we can find a solution to resolve the wet air filter (those that have it) and the turbo-seal-seap (those that have it) without having to void any warranties (Hint to Old Navy and his production company with the Super CCV Filter).

_________________
'05 CRD Silver Sport
As Delivered:
Sunroof, Tow, 700mi
Warranty:
EGRs, TC & Pump, EGR FCV
After-market:
Guages (5), PIAA duals, Hitch & side lights,
AeroTurbine, Fumoto, 3.7L Airbox, Revos, Steps,
Cargo Tray, Hitch Rack, Bike Rails, & Slush Mats

Ok the question now is who is going to get someone to make a commercial version of RFCD's device. I for one am sold and would purchase. Last week in torrential rains in Florida for 3 hours I had droplets of water all over the airbox and a damp filter.

As far as what it would take to stop a diesel from running due to lack of air,from my time on diesel submarines I KNOW it's enough to break eardrums...

I just hope they make a snorkel for the CRD.

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Sport Black
EHM, ORM, FUMOTO, SAMCO HOSES, SKYJACKER
REBUILT @ 105K
ARP HEAD STUDS
GDE HOT TUNE
FLORIDA TORQUE CONVERTER
WEEKS KIT
JBA UCA’s
Etecno 5v Glow Plugs
Updated Fuel Filter Head

As far as the 20 inches of water criteria, that's when you're supposed to change out the air filter to prevent problems with restricted airflow.

VT, my feeling is the same as yours, 20" H2O is probably too low a differential to cause problems.

However, with a wet or clogged air filter, the turbo seals may be seeing differentials well above this point under certain conditions, such as hard acceleration as you mentioned. And it may be that oil is not being pulled past the seals every time this happens.

There is the possibility that this is a accumulated stress failure, if the seals are subjected to enough repeated episodes of vacuum, above what they were intended to see, due to a restricted air intake, that after a certain point they begin to leak and eventually give way completely.

This would be similar to taking a piece of metal and repeatedly bending it back and forth, until it weakens and eventually breaks.

It could be that a high enough vacuum trys to pull the turbo shaft to one side, causing abnormal wear on the seals, that will eventually cause them to start leaking and if it continues to fail altogether.

I don't know how these seals are designed, and we don't really know how high of a vacuum that area of the intake system is seeing with a restricted air filter. All of the above is conjecture on my part.

As far as changing out the air filter at every oil change, there may be a more cost effective method. There are air filter restriction indicators available, Filterminder probably the most prevalent. These can be easily mounted on the air intake, between the air filter and the turbo. The Filterminder version will lock at the highest reading it sees, so you can pop the hood and check it when the vehicle is shut down. If it never budges off the zero mark, then you're probably good to go continuing to use the same air filter until the recommended change interval. For those still running a stock air intake and are experiencing wet filter problems, it would also be a quick and dirty indication of just how much restriction a wet filter does cause. These are the same indicators they put on Dodge Cummins pickups and the big rigs.

FWIW, after removing the air inlet tube to the grille, I obtained one of the Filterminder indicators at work and installed it on the air filter housing. After 4000 miles with this configuration, starting with a fresh filter, there is no evidence of any water finding it's way into the filter housing, considerably less visible "dirt" and bugs on the filter, and the Filterminder indicator hasn't budged off zero.

Considering that a DC rep has admitted to one list member that they considered the air intake setup to be "marginal" and given him the OK to try modifications, my own experience and others with water in the filter housing and wet filters, and at least two turbo seal failures that I know of that could be attributed to a restricted air intake, it does occur to me that there is something going on here we don't fully understand yet.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

I haven't been following this thread until very recently, being distracted by other issues on my CRD. However, after reading these posts, I checked my filter box after a 20 mile trip in very light but steady rain. 1/4" of water in the bottom of the airbox, but the filter felt dry. I still have my old airbox from my 3.7 V6 Liberty. I'll check if its a drop-in replacement for the CRD airbox and see if that stops the water. I measured the intake on the 3.7L V6 intake at 1.4" x 6" or approximately 8.4 square inches of intake area. Anyone know the exact diameter of the CRD intake? Being circular, we could calculate its area with Pi * R^2.

_________________
2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

Pie are not square, they are round. Without even measuring I would guess about 20 to 25 Square inches.

This may be what prevents the water and I know it prevents the bugs from screwing up airfilter.



One can also do this mod and run it by itself or with the above grill screen.



Bugs, bugs and more bugs and this was done before bug season arrived. I'll give you one guess what most of those are, the big M word.



You should see it now with all the dragon flies, saw one in the yard yesterday that was 1/2" in diameter and 3" long. At 70 mph he might have cracked the windshield. The other problem is the birds flying across the roads after the bugs, then there are the hawks that are after the birds that are after the bugs.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

This isn't difficult to build. It's an inexact science as I don't have a CAD program and my wind tunnel is I-76. Homer D's, Lowes, or you favorite corner hardware will have the stuff for @ $20.
Supplies needed:
4" Street 90 (PVC or ABS your choice)
4" rubber pipe coupler with clamps
appropriate adhesive for the type of pipe to glue the stop blocks.
4" long X 1/4 inch carriage bolt with nut and washers (I used stainless steel because of the water & road salt)
Sabre saw to enlarge the hole in the airbox and shape the pipe
Utlility knife or shears to notch the coupler and cut the end off of the factory accordian pipe.
Electric drill with 1/2 and 1/4 inch bits
Sandpaper or a file to smooth the edges
Just remember that cutting away too little of the pipe is better than too much as you can always drill more holes to compensate

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

One additional observation for those dusty desert types: When dry, this device seem to get covered in dust/dirt. It appears to create enough wind turbulance inside the airbox to effect the way dirt flows. Not sure if it will improve filter life.

One thought I had when building this was to copy what I've seen on some large bus diesels. Some have what looks like a "tornado" device in the wind pipe before the filter. This creates spin in the airflow, using centfigugal force to scrub the air of both dirt and water before it has a chance to get sucked into the filter. I don't think we have the distance/space to pull this off, would require a pre-chamber most likely outside the airbox.

The next logical addition would be to get an air filter element that doesn't wic and hold moisture (as with paper or even the cotton gauze types). Something as simple as a synthetic fiber filter or foam filter may do the trick.

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.