Daimler-Chrysler should offer to buy back the vehicles from people who are tired of the recalls, lose of power and offer additional warranties to those who make the choice to live with lost power and lower resale value of these vehicles.

I am still on the fence on whether to get my 2005 to the Dyno I think me and Weegie5
Would have a race. Mine defiantly is less powerful than when new.

He posted a link to his results and they show less than 125 lb-ft of torque at 2,750 rpm rising to a peak of 193.1 at 3,550 rpm. Horsepower peaked at 134.3 at 3,750 rpm. His chart starts at 2,750 rpm.

It would be unmistakable to have 295 lb.-ft. of torque at 1,800 rpm then fall to 125 lb.-ft. at 2,750 then rise to 193.1 at 3,550 rpm.

His post is here:
New Customer Satisfaction Recall – F37 page 30

Buy back for me; count me in on the class action if the dealer refuses.

The 295 foot pounds at 1800rpm is engine torque at the flywheel-- not at the rear wheels. You never have as much at the rear wheels in any auto-- especially one with an automatic tranny. So no dyno would ever show 295 pounds of torque at the rear wheels with this thing stock. The torque peak is indeed accurate- the torque converter does what it states it does-- it can allow the transmission to turn at a different speed than the flywheel-- which is why you have higher numbers for the peak torque at the rear wheels. "4-wheel drive and SUV" mag dynoed this thing and then chipped it and dynoed it-- I can't find my copy of the magazine though. The numbers they had before chipping were not far off from the before dyno numbers posted in the other thread.

What the "before F37" and "after F37" dyno results posted in the other thread did show, however, is a loss of around 10 hp and 10 foot pounds of torque. Working those numbers gives you about a 5.334% loss of torque and 6.40357% loss in horsepower. Kinda crappy, I am not happy with that. I am more concerned with the low RPM torque being hampered by the higher stall as I bought this for off-road use.

I wonder how much of this torque reduction has to do with the torque converter and how much with the reflash? I can fix the torque converter-- the TCM is another story. If they have messed with the HP and torque by having the TCM retard power then I am not sure what we can do to get it back short of reflashing the TCM and flushing our warranty down the drain.

I tend to think the best course of action for those that have not had F37 done-- but want the original or better performance-- is to buy a custom Torque Converter and have it installed by an independant tranny shop. I would also install the new tranny pump (order it from DC). I would have them take pictures of any metal shavings and have them replace the filters and heat exchanger if the shavings exist. Have them save all parts replaced. I would also consider a shift kit depending on what the shop recommends.

When that is done, take your old parts, and your reciept from the tranny shop and head to your local ignoramous Jeep dealer and tell them that according to F37-- you are submitting the work done for reimbursement to DC. Then let them flash your TCM for warranty purposes and make DC pay for the repairs. This way you get everything done right and nothing gets messed up by the stealership. (Watch them to make sure they don't "steal" your new TQ and put their shiz one back in).

The disadvantage of doing this is that you have to go through the hassle and pay for it up front-- then fight DC to get your money back. The advantage is, you get even better performance from the custom torque converter and pump (lower stall and more efficient power transfer) and that your incompetant dealer is not messing with your tranny (putting the wrong amount of fluid back in, etc.). Plus you have the parts and the pictures as evidence.

This is probably the best alternative to lemon law/buy back that I can see for us right now. I am still looking into what Torque Converter and probably will not be able to pursue this until after the 1st of the year. Oh well.

Hi Pablo thanks for the information. I was told that the vehicle made 295 lb.-ft. of torque at 1800 rpm so I expect 295 lb- ft. of torque at 1800 rpm. Not 193.1 lb.-ft at over 3,500 rpm. That is over one third less torque and at almost twice the rpm.

I bought the vehicle based on the test drive; I would not buy it as it drives now. Or would I have bought it in the anticipation of changing to aftermarket parts to get reliability.

I buy new vehicles for the driving experience and to not worry as to repairing them; I could have kept my first car until today if I wanted to worry about repairing the engine, transmission, power steering and so on.

Daimler-Chrysler should admit that the vehicle does not perform as originally sold and give the customer the choice of keeping the vehicle with the new performance or buy the vehicle back. I believe they would be better financially to mitigate for usage and resale to a fully informed customer than have their present customers like me ranting on the internet over their vehicles. Thank you for listening.

USNA, this engine has a torque peak somewher around 1800-2000 rpm holds steady for awhile then tapers off, that dyno didnt catch the peak torque of this engine, it caught it on the downslide. It should have caught the peak HP though.

_________________
It may be that your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

06 CRD Sport
Built 5/11/06
Jeep Green
Rocklizard diff cover
V6 Airbox

Where are the after results? The only results posted in the "other' thread are two different runs for the "before F37" case study. The owner has not had F37 done yet.

_________________
'05 CRD Sport born on 06/20/05, bought on 9/23/05, L.O.S.T. on 9/27/05 - modding ever since:

Daystar 2.0" Lift, P255/70R16 Revos, Boulder Bars, Reese Front Hitch w/9k Hooks, Poison Spyder Rock Ring, MOPAR Skids/Bug Shield/Roof Rails/Mats, WARN Hitch Shackle(Rear), 10k Hitch Hook(Front), Custom Tilt/Slope Meter, Ammo Box Mod, Rotella T 5W-40.

how about this DC... swap out my trans for the 6 speed manual and i'll just keep the torque. no buy backs, lawsuits, no more trans troubles etc. except for their crappy EGR design. just an idea

_________________
05 LIBERTY SPORT CRD
INFERNO RED
NO MODS YET

I'll vote for that. I wanted a stick when I went shopping for a CRD and couldn't believe it wasn't even an option. The AWOL standard tranny in the US fairly well sums up how far out of touch DC executives are from the reasons people have for buying a Jeep. Besides, a stick would be the equivalent of wife-repellent in the CRD, effectively keeping the family leadfoot from driving my Jeep.

_________________
Thanks,
Ken Jennings
2006 KJ Limited 4x4 CRD, Option Pkg G, Lt. Khaki, Built 1 Feb 2006
Tow Package for myself, EVIC TPM
Side Curtain Airbags for my daughter
http://www.kenjennings.cc/crd/dieselexp.html

Wasn't the manual tranny for this vehicle only rated for about half the towing capacity as the automatic?

So it seems -- in the UK. I went to the Jeep site and spec'd a UK 2.8L CRD Cherokee with manual transmission.
It reports maximum towing capacity (braked trailer) is 2,688 kg (which the google calculator tells me is 5,926 lbs).

The UK automatic tranny versions (CRD and gas) reports max tow capacity of 3360 kg (or 7407 lbs), so I guess there is a difference in manual vs auto. Or maybe it is really the interface between the steering wheel and seat that's the issue?

Back to the US Jeep site a manual or automatic 3.7L gas Liberty both have the same 5,000 lb max tow capacity listed.

_________________
Thanks,
Ken Jennings
2006 KJ Limited 4x4 CRD, Option Pkg G, Lt. Khaki, Built 1 Feb 2006
Tow Package for myself, EVIC TPM
Side Curtain Airbags for my daughter
http://www.kenjennings.cc/crd/dieselexp.html

check out jeepco.uk website and it lists the cherokee with 6speed manual with 296 ft.lbs. of torque.

TECHNICAL DETAILS
Engine and Transmission Performance Economy Suspension Steering Brakes, Wheels and Tyres Weights & Capacities Exterior Dimensions ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION
Cubic Capacity 2776 cc
Configuration 4 cylinders in-line DOHC
Compression Ratio 17.5:1
Fuel System Common rail, direct electronic fuel injection
Maximum torque 295 lb ft @ 1800-2400 rpm
Maximum power 161 bhp @ 3800 rpm
Gearbox 6 speed manual
4x4 system Part-time Command-Trac 4-wheel drive with shift-on-the-fly includes low range
Bore x Stroke 94.0 x 100.0 mm

_________________
05 LIBERTY SPORT CRD
INFERNO RED
NO MODS YET

Every vehicle is advertised with the hp and torque figures at the engine's flywheel. This is because those numbers are higher and people like higher numbers when comparing vehicles. But those are not real world performance numbers. Not for the CRD, not for a Honda, or anything else. The Dyno charts referenced do not show flywheel power-- they show the rear wheel horsepower. That is what actually counts, but those are not the figures used to sell cars with. The advertising practice of showing flywheel HP is legal and common-- I can't think of anyone who markets cars based on the RWHP-- they all sell how much power the engine makes-- not how much gets to the ground. This practice is not specific to our CRD's.

If you took the engine out of one of our CRD's-- it would put out 295 foot pounds of torque at 1800 rpm, within a legally acceptable percentage of variation. It would likey do this before or after F37. The issue is does F37 cause less power to the ground? Does it thereby reduce the utility and desirability of the vehicle from what we originally purchased and which was advertised? I would say-- Yes. What should be done about, or can be? I don't know yet-- IANAL.

As another poster pointed out-- apparently both of these numbers are before F37, not after. I was under the impression one was before and one was after.

We need good dyno numbers before we can do anything. Thanks to the dyno numbers posted so far-- they are a good starting point.

Yup, that's it, e-villeguy!!! I was partially disappointed the CRD didn't come mated to a 6-speed...how Jeep-like and bulletproof would that have been?

I'm in for that!

Cheers,
Duey

If Daimler-Chrysler has reprogrammed the engine to make the peak torque at over 1,980 rpm. A ten percent increase then I would conclude they have significantly altered the performance of my vehicle.

I would not purchase the vehicle as it drives presently.

Below is an example of how Daimler-Chrysler should compensate for modification made to my vehicle.

1. Move the peak torque thirty percent higher in rpm. = Refund thirty percent of purchase price.
2. Remove twenty five percent of torque = Refund twenty five percent of purchase price.
3. Remove ten percent of the horsepower = Refund ten percent of the purchase price.

Will there be Class Action suit over these vehicles? I believe so; too many precedents have been set over smaller vehicle issues.

Will the representing attorneys make money? Yes.
Will the vehicle owners get reimbursement? Yes.
Did Daimler-Chrysler cause the problem? Yes.

Will I feel sorry for Daimler-Chrysler? No.