NEW TRANNY TSB ISSUED 7/14

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Check out the old Yahoo CRD posts... might still be there.

alljeep · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:55 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Same here. Paperwork says flashed with latest PCM flash. If that's correct, it didn't fix the shudder. What I am noticing is engine detuning. Turbo lag is higher than before the flash. Engine power is smooth, but comes on much slower. Definitely less low end grunt.

Did you notice any engine power loss when yours was flashed?

My invoice has two seperate reflashes listed, one for the ECM and one for the TCM. I have not noticed any loss of power but I am noticing more "clunkyness" of the transmission at highway speeds when I'm on and off the throttle - could just be the eventual MOPAR transmission failure on it's way.

As for power, half pedal down for the first second or two gets past the turbo spool up lag and the EPA emissions de-tune for initial burst of pollution, then let her rip by increasing throttle depression. Seems to have almost the same effect as hammer down on an older car without all the computer/turbo crap to deal with.

Ironically, my 2004 Toyota Sienna LE AWD has a MAJOR 4-5 second delay when stomped on, but only 1 second if you do the half throttle trick to get past the EPA de-tune.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:26 am

alljeep wrote:

My invoice has two seperate reflashes listed, one for the ECM and one for the TCM. I have not noticed any loss of power but I am noticing more "clunkyness" of the transmission at highway speeds when I'm on and off the throttle - could just be the eventual MOPAR transmission failure on it's way.

As for power, half pedal down for the first second or two gets past the turbo spool up lag and the EPA emissions de-tune for initial burst of pollution, then let her rip by increasing throttle depression. Seems to have almost the same effect as hammer down on an older car without all the computer/turbo crap to deal with.

Ironically, my 2004 Toyota Sienna LE AWD has a MAJOR 4-5 second delay when stomped on, but only 1 second if you do the half throttle trick to get past the EPA de-tune.

Our '00 & '02 VW diesels had the same problem, my Magnum has this delay also. After 6 years of dealing with it in new vehicles I have about got used to it and remember to ease into throttle and not hammer the puppy. My Magnum is almost as bad as the CRD and the 5.7L RT Magnum had about the same lag as the CRD, but makes it up with all those cubic inches. My 2.7L Magnum has a responce more in line with the CRD if just hammered at low RPM's and then the programming changes and the twin cams and variable intake goes to work and she howles like a banshee.

About the only way anyone has ever got around the lag is by chipping the car, be it gas or diesel.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:40 am

RFCRD wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

If I could get back to 18-009-06 I would. Wouldn't that be the kicker, sell 11,000 of these little torque monsters and detune them all after the fact. Guess that would be the final screwing from DC. I would still like to find the note from the VM Motori engineer saying the torque converter clutch springs are too weak for this engine.

It's not over till the fat lady sings! 11,000 of us plus the magnum/hemi owners who seem to suffer the same fate could start a class action. I would be willing to even pay for a portion. Let's see, 11,000 owners times $100 is $1,100,000. Not all owners would participate but enough to matter I should think. Plus the EGR issues could be included. We've seen how long DC has drug out the Lower Ball Joint issue and who knows how long the replacement will last. Plus the $100 retainer could be gotten back also. This is my second US brand new car purchase and am dissappointed but not supprised.

alljeep · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:44 am

Joe Romas wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

If I could get back to 18-009-06 I would. Wouldn't that be the kicker, sell 11,000 of these little torque monsters and detune them all after the fact. Guess that would be the final screwing from DC. I would still like to find the note from the VM Motori engineer saying the torque converter clutch springs are too weak for this engine.

It's not over till the fat lady sings! 11,000 of us plus the magnum/hemi owners who seem to suffer the same fate could start a class action. I would be willing to even pay for a portion. Let's see, 11,000 owners times $100 is $1,100,000. Not all owners would participate but enough to matter I should think. Plus the EGR issues could be included. We've seen how long DC has drug out the Lower Ball Joint issue and who knows how long the replacement will last. Plus the $100 retainer could be gotten back also. This is my second US brand new car purchase and am dissappointed but not supprised.

You may skirt the LBJ recall. We found an updated news release from the toledo blade yesterday and it clearly states that a new LBJ has been installed in all 2006 Liberties starting in March - an actual redesigned part - so the lucky few late production CRD owners already have the new LBJ.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:03 am

Joe Romas wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

If I could get back to 18-009-06 I would. Wouldn't that be the kicker, sell 11,000 of these little torque monsters and detune them all after the fact. Guess that would be the final screwing from DC. I would still like to find the note from the VM Motori engineer saying the torque converter clutch springs are too weak for this engine.

It's not over till the fat lady sings! 11,000 of us plus the magnum/hemi owners who seem to suffer the same fate could start a class action. I would be willing to even pay for a portion. Let's see, 11,000 owners times $100 is $1,100,000. Not all owners would participate but enough to matter I should think. Plus the EGR issues could be included. We've seen how long DC has drug out the Lower Ball Joint issue and who knows how long the replacement will last. Plus the $100 retainer could be gotten back also. This is my second US brand new car purchase and am dissappointed but not supprised.

Having owned a lot of vehicle (both good & bad), becoming convinced this one is a law suit looking for the right opportunity. It's unfortunate because the basics are in place for a great diesel vehicle. DC just missed the mark on some things. All are really stupid simple basic engineering choices which they should know better. This will likely do as much damage to the prospects of diesel engines as GM. I'm most dissappointed because DC is the manufacturer I have the greatest trust to get it right with a diesel. From what I've seen thus far, VW builds a better "mouse trap" when it comes to diesels.

DragonDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:24 am

Well, I will let you guys know more today when I pick up the Jeep from the dealership. They are supposed to be testing it out right now.

ALSO - They told me that the "surging" issues were not from the TSB, but from a "faulty" Throttle Control Valve... Has anyone heard of this kind of issue? What would cause that to go bad? :shock:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:40 am

RFCRD wrote:

Having owned a lot of vehicle (both good & bad), becoming convinced this one is a law suit looking for the right opportunity. It's unfortunate because the basics are in place for a great diesel vehicle. DC just missed the mark on some things. All are really stupid simple basic engineering choices which they should know better. This will likely do as much damage to the prospects of diesel engines as GM. I'm most dissappointed because DC is the manufacturers I have the greatest trust to get it right with a diesel. From what I've seen thus far, VW builds a better "mouse trap" when it comes to diesels.

Having been in the VW TDI crowd for 1/2 dozen years and owning a few MB diesel's, they all have had a lot of poor engineering done if for no other reasons then to cut cost. The VW's have had big problems with intake clogging due to poor design of the intake, poor designed (but better then CRD) CCV, various problems with brakes, electronic's and tranny's over the last 6 years, then throw in a dealer network that also had big problems with working on diesels and would void warranties faster then you could say the word warranty. The MB dealers will be lucky to avoid the same problems here in the US.

With so many Jeep dealers that have no diesel tech's because they are strictly a Jeep dealer or a Jeep and some other brands without any diesel sales & service expperience D/C is really going to have problems with the Jeep diesel customer base. Those should be the dealers to stay away from if buying a CRD, and I most surely would not buy a Jeep GC with a MB diesel in the US without the dealership being a authorized Sprinter sales and service dealership, that way you will have a experienced MB diesel tech. I would not even have bought the CRD if not for the experienced MB & Cummins diesel tech's that the dealership where I bought the CRD has due to lots of diesel truck & Sprinter sales.

I have wished several times the we would have waited till AWD Caliber gasser came along. I could have saved at the very least $5000 on price of vehicle and may have likely had a less of a problem child vehicle. But who knows, we haven't had any more trouble with the CRD then we did with the VW's, we may be alright with the Jeep.

Reggie · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:45 am

RFCRD wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

If I could get back to 18-009-06 I would. Wouldn't that be the kicker, sell 11,000 of these little torque monsters and detune them all after the fact. Guess that would be the final screwing from DC. I would still like to find the note from the VM Motori engineer saying the torque converter clutch springs are too weak for this engine.

It's not over till the fat lady sings! 11,000 of us plus the magnum/hemi owners who seem to suffer the same fate could start a class action. I would be willing to even pay for a portion. Let's see, 11,000 owners times $100 is $1,100,000. Not all owners would participate but enough to matter I should think. Plus the EGR issues could be included. We've seen how long DC has drug out the Lower Ball Joint issue and who knows how long the replacement will last. Plus the $100 retainer could be gotten back also. This is my second US brand new car purchase and am dissappointed but not supprised.

Having owned a lot of vehicle (both good & bad), becoming convinced this one is a law suit looking for the right opportunity. It's unfortunate because the basics are in place for a great diesel vehicle. DC just missed the mark on some things. All are really stupid simple basic engineering choices which they should know better. This will likely do as much damage to the prospects of diesel engines as GM. I'm most dissappointed because DC is the manufacturer I have the greatest trust to get it right with a diesel. From what I've seen thus far, VW builds a better "mouse trap" when it comes to diesels.

Wasn't Ford nailed a few years back on not their Mustang not delivering the promised HP rating of the vehicle? If DC flashes it so it no longer produces the same amount of power to bandaid the POS TC, wouldn't this be the same issue?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:48 am

DragonDiesel wrote:

Well, I will let you guys know more today when I pick up the Jeep from the dealership. They are supposed to be testing it out right now.

ALSO - They told me that the "surging" issues were not from the TSB, but from a "faulty" Throttle Control Valve... Has anyone heard of this kind of issue? What would cause that to go bad? :shock:

"Throttle control valve" is most likely the anti-shudder valve inside the air induction casting. This valve closes when the engine is shut down to choke off the air supply to prevent after-run. It also partially closes to partially block the intake air, allowing the EGR gasses to port into this casting. It is gear driven from an electric motor, gears have been failing (made from plastic).

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:11 am

RFCRD wrote:

DragonDiesel wrote:

Well, I will let you guys know more today when I pick up the Jeep from the dealership. They are supposed to be testing it out right now.

ALSO - They told me that the "surging" issues were not from the TSB, but from a "faulty" Throttle Control Valve... Has anyone heard of this kind of issue? What would cause that to go bad? :shock:

"Throttle control valve" is most likely the anti-shudder valve inside the air induction casting. This valve closes when the engine is shut down to choke off the air supply to prevent after-run. It also partially closes to partially block the intake air, allowing the EGR gasses to port into this casting. It is gear driven from an electric motor, gears have been failing (made from plastic).

Shades of Toyota J40 Landcruiser's with their plastic timing gear, that people went to Chevy for replacement since it was a cloned Chevy 235 I6 engine. Someone said they heard that the new EGR FCV now has metal gearing. I wonder if the one they replaced on our CRD was this new metal geared valve?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:36 am

[quote="alljeep
You may skirt the LBJ recall. We found an updated news release from the toledo blade yesterday and it clearly states that a new LBJ has been installed in all 2006 Liberties starting in March - an actual redesigned part - so the lucky few late production CRD owners already have the new LBJ.[/quote]

Mine was built on January 17, 06 so my ball joints are the bad ones. Thanks for the info on March intro.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:48 am

[quote="RFCRDHaving owned a lot of vehicle (both good & bad), becoming convinced this one is a law suit looking for the right opportunity. It's unfortunate because the basics are in place for a great diesel vehicle. DC just missed the mark on some things. All are really stupid simple basic engineering choices which they should know better. This will likely do as much damage to the prospects of diesel engines as GM. I'm most dissappointed because DC is the manufacturer I have the greatest trust to get it right with a diesel. From what I've seen thus far, VW builds a better "mouse trap" when it comes to diesels.[/quote]

Sad but very true. Anyone besides me old enough to remember when GM put chevette transmissions in diesel Cadilacs back in the 80's and got sued?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:41 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

Sad but very true. Anyone besides me old enough to remember when GM put chevette transmissions in diesel Cadilacs back in the 80's and got sued?

Now that sounds like urban legend stuff.

The thing I remember they (Caddy) were sued for was the use of Chevy engine in the Caddy. I believe it was the GM 350 CID engine that was the "problem" and Caddy/GM forgot to switch or used some Chevy valve covers is what caused the fuss. It would be like haveing the new MB V6 in Jeep with engine cover or valve covers saying Jeep and some poor smuck gets a MB with a set of valve covers or engine cover with Jeep logo's on them. Can you just see the owner of a $60,000 MB jaws torque when he got home and discovered he has a "Jeep" engine, he is going to be hot under the collar to say the least.

You should see some of the reactions of people when they discover that the LX series cars (Magnum, Charger & 300C) are MB chassis cars with so much MB tec & parts that in reallity these cars are MB's with cheap stupid Dodge body's. I have seen more people react negative on the MOPAR side because they are died in wool American MOPAR fans and really get upset when informed that their car is only 74% US & Canadian built and then only that much because the MB 5 spd tranny (W5A) is built in North America under MB License as is a lot of other stuff such as suspension parts. My guess is the LX cars would be 75% German if not for the out soursing of the parts mfg to Canada and US markets. Some stuff is however made in the fatherland such as the seats in mine, they are the nice black Euro cloth that used to be only available in Europe and other non North American markets. I just wish that they had used the high quality aluminum like MB uses in it cars on the suspension, it is possible to switch out the LX parts for MB parts and this has been done by a couple members on the LX forum.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:18 pm

oldnavy wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

Sad but very true. Anyone besides me old enough to remember when GM put chevette transmissions in diesel Cadilacs back in the 80's and got sued?

Now that sounds like urban legend stuff.

The thing I remember they (Caddy) were sued for was the use of Chevy engine in the Caddy. I believe it was the GM 350 CID engine that was the "problem" and Caddy/GM forgot to switch or used some Chevy valve covers is what caused the fuss. It would be like haveing the new MB V6 in Jeep with engine cover or valve covers saying Jeep and some poor smuck gets a MB with a set of valve covers or engine cover with Jeep logo's on them. Can you just see the owner of a $60,000 MB jaws torque when he got home and discovered he has a "Jeep" engine, he is going to be hot under the collar to say the least.

You should see some of the reactions of people when they discover that the LX series cars (Magnum, Charger & 300C) are MB chassis cars with so much MB tec & parts that in reallity these cars are MB's with cheap stupid Dodge body's. I have seen more people react negative on the MOPAR side because they are died in wool American MOPAR fans and really get upset when informed that their car is only 74% US & Canadian built and then only that much because the MB 5 spd tranny (W5A) is built in North America under MB License as is a lot of other stuff such as suspension parts. My guess is the LX cars would be 75% German if not for the out soursing of the parts mfg to Canada and US markets. Some stuff is however made in the fatherland such as the seats in mine, they are the nice black Euro cloth that used to be only available in Europe and other non North American markets. I just wish that they had used the high quality aluminum like MB uses in it cars on the suspension, it is possible to switch out the LX parts for MB parts and this has been done by a couple members on the LX forum.

Nope! No ledgen at all. Wife's uncle worked for GM and the thinking was that the diesel with it's low end torque it would get into top (direct) gear so so quick that a bigger (better) transmission was not needed.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:16 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

Nope! No ledgen at all. Wife's uncle worked for GM and the thinking was that the diesel with it's low end torque it would get into top (direct) gear so so quick that a bigger (better) transmission was not needed.

I had not heard about the tranny's, must have been out of country at the time.

Now how stupid was the idea of a lighter duty tranny for engine with lots of low end torque. Must have been a bean counter and not a real automotive engineer.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:31 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

Nope! No ledgen at all. Wife's uncle worked for GM and the thinking was that the diesel with it's low end torque it would get into top (direct) gear so so quick that a bigger (better) transmission was not needed.

Actually owned one of those but it was in a Bonniville, was definately a piece of work. Undersized would be a fair description, but more like a Malibu tranny than a Chevette (IIRC was called a 200 "Metric"). Still too light to take the torque of the 5.7L diesel. I even installed an extra switch on the dash so I could unlock the torque converter. When I got to the point where I had to pull the diesel, dropped the tranny pan to find an incredible amount of metal shavings.

AndySRT · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:24 pm

how long did this take for everyone. I'm going to pick mine up from service in a few min. I'll have a report tonight

AndySRT · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:50 pm

well i ended up with a courtsey car. they flashed the update in and the computer in the libby shut down. no CRD till tommorw hopefully :evil:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:09 pm

AndySRT wrote:

well i ended up with a courtsey car. they flashed the update in and the computer in the libby shut down. no CRD till tommorw hopefully :evil:

Improper flash done by tech, he had an interuption of power, improper down load, or failed to follow step by step procedure, to name a few mistakes often done. A near by dealer has a tech that has screwed the flash's of more cars & trucks then they can count, but he's stil there turning a wrench for some reason.

NEW TRANNY TSB ISSUED 7/14

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