Poll: ULSD vs BioD vs EGR: Obi Wan you're our only hope!

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:11 pm

Here's the thing: I want to believe. I want to believe that the failing emissions system will get better after ULSD like many on this list. I love my CRD, I want to believe it ain't a dog. I believed in the Red Sox for many many MANY years and THEY got better, so why not my Libby? But then again, I believed in George Lucas and he broke my heart.

A lot of people on this list are running BioD, some at 100%, which should technically be WAY cleaner in the emissions system than ULSD can ever be. And we all seem to have problems. Or is the BioD causing the problems? I am not a good test, though, because I only started running on 100% this spring, and did use an "Alternate" (ahem), very sulfurous diesel source during the Katrina spike (no Tax cops here?). EGR went out in June. So here is the question:

How many people are out there running 100, 50, or 20% BioD for most of your Libby's life, and what percentage of those people had the EGR problem? This isn't scientific, but worth a shot. Please chime in with stats on type of fuel over your vehicle lifetime and any EGR issues.

And I'll keep wearing my rally cap....

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:40 pm

Would love to post to this thread....Lets just say I choose to invoke my "5th Admendment" rights. Dr.Z's warranty police are likely watching some of this stuff. Might be better to format a blind poll.

Next, for all those who believe ULSD is a magic bullet to solve your EGR problems, you will be dissappointed. Have been watching ULSD running in a big fleet of EGR diesels for almost 3 years, it doesn't fix the problem. Yes, it will burn cleaner which will help, possibly with less soot provided it's higher cetane. There is no guarantee that ULSD = Higher Cetane. In Europe, they have a much higher standard for fuel quality with better results. Don't count on this for the US where oil companies have been fighting this conversion for years, much of this in a effort to keep fuel cheap.

For my CRD, I burn B?? (pleading the 5th) which is doing fine, no EGR problems at 16K miles.

AZ CRD · **Posted:** Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:21 pm

I'm only at 850 miles with factory tank of B5 followed by a tank and a half of B50. MPG seems to be incrementally increasing as everything gets seated. Will keep the board posted.

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:02 pm

The real question is this...

What's different about the European Libbys? Do they have these problems?

kjfishman · **Posted:** Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:51 am

From what the responce to your post it would seem there may not an answer to the ERG issues, I have written Jeff Bell asking what they are doing about this issue and to date have not recvieved a responce. I have called the customer service number and they won't even attempt to answer the question, they just offer to expidite the parts (4 wweeks now no parts). Cuistomers are not given access to the STAR people to discus the issue.

I am sure one get get the repairs made under warrantie for 100k, after that your on your own and the repairs are costly.So are left to creative solitions we come up with on our own? Someone had suggested plugging the hose to the EGR and venting it under the engine. The downside was that you will end up with oil dripping in your driveway from that hose. So what if you used a CCV filter but vented the output underneath the truck? If you live in a state with emisions inspections you probably won't be able to do that.

I would expect more From the company who wants sell lots of diesels in North America.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:36 pm

kjfishman wrote:

From what the responce to your post it would seem there may not an answer to the ERG issues, I have written Jeff Bell asking what they are doing about this issue and to date have not recvieved a responce. I have called the customer service number and they won't even attempt to answer the question, they just offer to expidite the parts (4 wweeks now no parts). Cuistomers are not given access to the STAR people to discus the issue.

I am sure one get get the repairs made under warrantie for 100k, after that your on your own and the repairs are costly.So are left to creative solitions we come up with on our own? Someone had suggested plugging the hose to the EGR and venting it under the engine. The downside was that you will end up with oil dripping in your driveway from that hose. So what if you used a CCV filter but vented the output underneath the truck? If you live in a state with emisions inspections you probably won't be able to do that.

I would expect more From the company who wants sell lots of diesels in North America.

So do I and expressed it on two recent survey's I recieved but they most likely never will be read :roll:

groucho · **Posted:** Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:59 pm

kjfishman wrote:

From what the responce to your post it would seem there may not an answer to the ERG issues, I have written Jeff Bell asking what they are doing about this issue and to date have not recvieved a responce. I have called the customer service number and they won't even attempt to answer the question, they just offer to expidite the parts (4 wweeks now no parts). Cuistomers are not given access to the STAR people to discus the issue.

I am sure one get get the repairs made under warrantie for 100k, after that your on your own and the repairs are costly.So are left to creative solitions we come up with on our own? Someone had suggested plugging the hose to the EGR and venting it under the engine. The downside was that you will end up with oil dripping in your driveway from that hose. So what if you used a CCV filter but vented the output underneath the truck? If you live in a state with emisions inspections you probably won't be able to do that.

I would expect more From the company who wants sell lots of diesels in North America.

If you'll look at OldNavy's sticky Alphabet Soup you can see the "bottle" fix. Dodge used this arrangement on the Cummins diesel for several model years, albeit a smaller circumference hose and smaller bottle.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:24 pm

groucho wrote:

kjfishman wrote:

From what the responce to your post it would seem there may not an answer to the ERG issues, I have written Jeff Bell asking what they are doing about this issue and to date have not recvieved a responce. I have called the customer service number and they won't even attempt to answer the question, they just offer to expidite the parts (4 wweeks now no parts). Cuistomers are not given access to the STAR people to discus the issue.

I am sure one get get the repairs made under warrantie for 100k, after that your on your own and the repairs are costly.So are left to creative solitions we come up with on our own? Someone had suggested plugging the hose to the EGR and venting it under the engine. The downside was that you will end up with oil dripping in your driveway from that hose. So what if you used a CCV filter but vented the output underneath the truck? If you live in a state with emisions inspections you probably won't be able to do that.

I would expect more From the company who wants sell lots of diesels in North America.

If you'll look at OldNavy's sticky Alphabet Soup you can see the "bottle" fix. Dodge used this arrangement on the Cummins diesel for several model years, albeit a smaller circumference hose and smaller bottle.

I plan on pulling the bottle out for photo sometime this weekend to show amount of oil that is being blown into the bottle. That is only if the morning temp in the garage is below 90F when I get out there just after daybreak. :roll:

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

BiodieselJeep.com wrote:

A lot of people on this list are running BioD, some at 100%, which should technically be WAY cleaner in the emissions system than ULSD can ever be.

I would like to clear up this common misconception...

1. Biodiesel does not produce any sulphur/soot

2. Biodiesel produces 10% more NOx emmissions than standard #2 Diesel or ULSD

The sulphur/soot deal is the biggest issue people have had with petroleum diesel fuel for pretty much forever, it doesn't pollute the air as much as it affects human health. There are many health problems that can arise from above average exposure to sulphur/soot from diesel fuel.

That being said, the tree huggers have a big problem with diesel because it produces more NOx emmissions than gasoline, NOx being a huge greenhouse gas that en mass destroys the ozone and whatnot.

So for now in America, the EPA has regulated that ULSD be used nationwide later this year and that will drastically lower the amount of particulate matter created by the average diesel vehicle. The big thing many companies in Europe are pursuing is technology that will eliminate or at least nullify NOx emmissions

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:56 am

Hero wrote:

......So for now in America, the EPA has regulated that ULSD be used nationwide later this year and that will drastically lower the amount of particulate matter created by the average diesel vehicle. The big thing many companies in Europe are pursuing is technology that will eliminate or at least nullify NOx emmissions

The eurea injection is what seems to cure the NOx problem and that will be on '09 diesels if allowed by EPA. :roll:

With Eurea injection the diesel engine can be made cleaner then a any gasser can, and have much higher mpg's to boot. As a matter of fact quite a few gas engines will dissappear for '09 MY due to inability to meet EPA restrictions. From what I hear all OHV engines and some SOC engines in use currently will not be seen for '09 MY introductions.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:03 am

oldnavy wrote:

Quote:

The eurea injection is what seems to cure the NOx problem and that will be on '09 diesels if allowed by EPA.

If my cat pees on my CRD...will that do for urea injection. If so I have an Old DarbyWalters Fix for sale...In fact I have about 15 extra cats at my office. Check on Ebay~ :lol:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:09 am

DarbyWalters wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

Quote:

The eurea injection is what seems to cure the NOx problem and that will be on '09 diesels if allowed by EPA.

If my cat pees on my CRD...will that do for urea injection. If so I have an Old DarbyWalters Fix for sale...In fact I have about 15 extra cats at my office. Check on Ebay~ :lol:

What I am wondering is how they discovered that pee will work like this in a diesel???

Makes one wonder what they be doing behind closed doors at the R&D center. :shock:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:08 pm

oldnavy wrote:

DarbyWalters wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

Quote:

The eurea injection is what seems to cure the NOx problem and that will be on '09 diesels if allowed by EPA.

If my cat pees on my CRD...will that do for urea injection. If so I have an Old DarbyWalters Fix for sale...In fact I have about 15 extra cats at my office. Check on Ebay~ :lol:

What I am wondering is how they discovered that pee will work like this in a diesel???

Makes one wonder what they be doing behind closed doors at the R&D center. :shock:

Having worked for Freightliner (DC) for 9 years, believe me, sometimes ignorance IS bliss! :roll:

This system would have one advantage - a Jeep with it's own built-in bathroom!

If you think people give you odd looks now pulling up to the diesel pump, wait until you try refilling the urea tank with your own, uhhh, "biourea". :oops:

Depending on where they put the fill port for the tank, that could make for an interesting evolution (or would that be evacuation?).

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:26 pm

retmil46 wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

DarbyWalters wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

Quote:

The eurea injection is what seems to cure the NOx problem and that will be on '09 diesels if allowed by EPA.

If my cat pees on my CRD...will that do for urea injection. If so I have an Old DarbyWalters Fix for sale...In fact I have about 15 extra cats at my office. Check on Ebay~ :lol:

What I am wondering is how they discovered that pee will work like this in a diesel???

Makes one wonder what they be doing behind closed doors at the R&D center. :shock:

Having worked for Freightliner (DC) for 9 years, believe me, sometimes ignorance IS bliss! :roll:

This system would have one advantage - a Jeep with it's own built-in bathroom!

If you think people give you odd looks now pulling up to the diesel pump, wait until you try refilling the urea tank with your own, uhhh, "biourea". :oops:

Depending on where they put the fill port for the tank, that could make for an interesting evolution (or would that be evacuation?).

Why have an extra tank? :roll:

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

I remember an article from Wards that said there may be independant tanks on future diesels that could be filled at future fuel stations which will have seperate pumps for diesel fuel and a urea-water mix... well isn't that pretty much urine??? :lol:

Hey now, there would be nothing better for a Jeep that you could take a leak into which would actually benefit it, I'd even tell those treehugger freaks that I'm doing my part to keep the water supply cleaner while reducing my vehicles emmissions

Suck on that EPA!!! :roll:

valkraider · **Posted:** Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:59 am

Hero wrote:

those treehugger freaks

Yeah, the same treehugger freaks who brought us clean air to breathe and clean rivers and streams...

If you don't like it you are welcome to go live in China where the air quality is so bad on some days you can't see across the street and where rivers are so polluted that there are no fish alive in them at all...

Or back to pre-EPA USA where smog inversions in the midwest would kill off whole towns and dead fish floated on the surface of rivers and lakes all over the place. Or back in the late 70s and early 80s before CARB really took hold and southern California had so much smog it would make your mouth gritty...

Come on - we all need air and water. And as population increases and consumption increases there is no reason to NOT make things as CLEAN as possible...

I wonder if the same people bitching about emissions requirements buy HEPA filters for their homes, or electrostatic filters for their furnaces and water filters for their fridges and sinks...

But hey, since my wife and most of my family have environmentally caused asthma from air pollution as children - and I don't want the same for my children - I must just be a "tree hugging freak"...

Emissions requirements are *good*. The methodology or exact measurements that the EPA and CARB use may be a bit out of whack due to politics though - but overall we are better off now than we were 20 years ago thanks to environmental protection.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:23 pm

valkraider wrote:

Hero wrote:

those treehugger freaks

Yeah, the same treehugger freaks who brought us clean air to breathe and clean rivers and streams...

If you don't like it you are welcome to go live in China where the air quality is so bad on some days you can't see across the street and where rivers are so polluted that there are no fish alive in them at all...

Or back to pre-EPA USA where smog inversions in the midwest would kill off whole towns and dead fish floated on the surface of rivers and lakes all over the place. Or back in the late 70s and early 80s before CARB really took hold and southern California had so much smog it would make your mouth gritty...

Come on - we all need air and water. And as population increases and consumption increases there is no reason to NOT make things as CLEAN as possible...

I wonder if the same people bitching about emissions requirements buy HEPA filters for their homes, or electrostatic filters for their furnaces and water filters for their fridges and sinks...

But hey, since my wife and most of my family have environmentally caused asthma from air pollution as children - and I don't want the same for my children - I must just be a "tree hugging freak"...

Emissions requirements are *good*. The methodology or exact measurements that the EPA and CARB use may be a bit out of whack due to politics though - but overall we are better off now than we were 20 years ago thanks to environmental protection.

AMEN! Take a tree hugger to lunch!

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:30 pm

valkraider wrote:

Hero wrote:

those treehugger freaks

Yeah, the same treehugger freaks who brought us clean air to breathe and clean rivers and streams...

If you don't like it you are welcome to go live in China where the air quality is so bad on some days you can't see across the street and where rivers are so polluted that there are no fish alive in them at all...

Or back to pre-EPA USA where smog inversions in the midwest would kill off whole towns and dead fish floated on the surface of rivers and lakes all over the place. Or back in the late 70s and early 80s before CARB really took hold and southern California had so much smog it would make your mouth gritty...

Come on - we all need air and water. And as population increases and consumption increases there is no reason to NOT make things as CLEAN as possible...

I wonder if the same people bitching about emissions requirements buy HEPA filters for their homes, or electrostatic filters for their furnaces and water filters for their fridges and sinks...

But hey, since my wife and most of my family have environmentally caused asthma from air pollution as children - and I don't want the same for my children - I must just be a "tree hugging freak"...

Emissions requirements are *good*. The methodology or exact measurements that the EPA and CARB use may be a bit out of whack due to politics though - but overall we are better off now than we were 20 years ago thanks to environmental protection.

I wish we had a few more tree-huggers in this area in the 60's & 70's when the rubber & adhesive industry was trashing the surrounding land. There is a superfund dump site not far away that was cleaned-up in the 80's & 90's that still won't support plant life. The townships surrounding this site has a cancer rate 5 times the national average, two generations later (I wonder why???). Definately better off than 20-30 yrs ago.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:37 am

I took Hero's comment to be referring to the extreme fringe, the type who are more concerned with pushing their agenda than accomplishing anything worthwhile, and don't give a hoot as to the effects on others, economically, environmentally, or otherwise.

Someone posted some time ago on another thread that the Sierra Club believed hybrids farted rainbows and flowers, and that diesels would always be dirty. From the comments I've seen over the years, some of the Sierra Club members seem to actually believe that. A few months back I read a comment from one of their high ranking members concerning Willy Nelson and his Biowillie biodiesel stations. He said "the best way to listen to Willy Nelson is to buy one of his CD's and play it in a hybrid".

I think it's more a case of "Not Invented Here" syndrome. The Sierra Club, and in particular Amory Lovins, has been pushing hybrids for close to 30 years. They have a lot of PR, prestige, and influence tied up in hybrids, and they're just pissed off that there's a ready-made alternative out there that could eventually put hybrids to shame as far as alternative fuels, emissions, and fuel consumption.

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:10 am

You'll never be able to pee in your diesel tank. Unless they install urea analyzers by the fuel pumps so the EPA can make sure your pee is pure pee. :roll:

Nobody will argue that we need clean air and water. I took hero's comments to mean fringe groups also. The types that burn down resorts, pound spikes into trees so loggers get hurt, and generally give a movement that has very good intentions a bad name.

The Sierra Club used to send me mailers but they stopped when I took everything out of the envelope, put it into their PP envelope and sent it back to them.

Poll: ULSD vs BioD vs EGR: Obi Wan you're our only hope!

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