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 Post subject: Scangauge II and our CRD
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:54 am 
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Well I did bought it and tried hard to make it works, without real success. Its a great gadget for everyone looking at more info for their cars (and for the non-diesel KJs) but alas not for us.

Here's the full email I exchanged with Ron (the support person at Linear-Logic, I asked for permission before sharing). I was so impressed by their knowledge that I decided to keep the tool for the next car :-)

---------ME---------
Hello!
Based on various (contradictory some times) reports on the site I frequent
www.lostkjs.com I decided to purchase the Scangauge to try on my '05 jeep.

So far I had many experiences when the full gauges were available, which make
me wonder. I was able for about 15min to get MPG, GPH, MPH running perfectly
well, then after that period they went blank (not even 0). I was also able
on another time to get the various temperature working, again for just 10-20
min then it disappeared.

Could it be that we only need a specific sequence command to activate those?
Its quite strange to get the gauges working for a while, and I sadly have no
clue how it happened. I tried to force every mode without success, then once
in a while I start the car and they work for a while... Puzzling :-(


--------- SUPPORT ---------


Bruno,

We list the Jeep Liberty with the diesel as incompatible ( http://www.scangauge.com/support/incomp ... cles.shtml )
for exactly what you are seeing.

When DCX designed the Liberty they used an ISO9141-2 body computer for the diagnostics. When they added the Italian diesel option, it had its own ISO9141-2 controller for diagnostics so they connected the two together. This is not allowed on ISO9141-2. They almost pulled it off, but then on one of the controllers they put in a software bug that causes one of them to go to sleep after a while. This is why part of the data stops. The only way to wake it up is to re-initialize the controller, but the ScanGaugeII will not do this unless the RPM stops being reported. This is needed so it will know when to go to sleep itself.

The combination of the protocol violation and "sleepy" controller, causes the what you are seeing and we don't currently know a clean way around it.

Ron

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SOLD'05 Black CRD Sport, steel bumper, Nokian 245/70, SpiderTrax, Flowmaster 40, Predator chip, Renegade light bar, EVIC, basket roof, Parrott Bluetooth.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:49 pm 
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That is a bit more detail than the response he sent me. It looks like he has access to a CRD and is working on it. I hope he remains curious enough to to try to solve this mystery. I would love to have one of these for my CRD.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:02 pm 
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I've sent them an email (contents below) ... lets hope there is some work (or at least a little non-dandruff head-scratching) going on. I'd love to have one of these.

Hello,

Checking a thread on lostkjs.com http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=11476 I finally found out what makes the scanguage incompatible with our CRD's.

If in the future, compatibility is made available for the CRD's, is there a list that you could start or some way of notifying us die-hard diesel heads?

Thanks,

Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:40 pm 
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As I understand the Scangauge email, DC engineers violated the standards based protocol by which the onboard computers communicate. They then deliberately introduced a software kludge to cause one of the computers on the bus to go to sleep so as not to cause other problems on the bus. If the software kludge is the only way to keep the computers communicating without problems, how are they going to remove it and not introduce the original problems they feared by violating the protocol? Note that I am not asking how they can remove the older flash updates for TCM, but how can they fix the problem with 2 masters or controllers on a bus that only permits one? It appears that this bug has to stay as it appears to disable one of the controllers so that the protocol is not violated. I have noticed that my obdii software will report losing communication with the CRD OBDII port nearly every time I use it more than a few minutes at a time. This does not happen on my V6 Liberty with the same software.

I won't even go into asking why these engineering clowns didn't know what they were working with in terms of protocol in time to avoid the violation and who approved a software kludge instead of using a compliant hardware solution.



EDIT: Found some info on the ISO 9141-2 bus. It is a standard derived orignally from CARB work. But the OBDII connector has access to the SCI and PCI bus on the Liberty and I assume, 91941-2 as well, since it was designed for diagnostics.

Here is a partial description of the bus from another site (http://www.evaluationengineering.com/ar ... 98auto.htm )

Every vehicle coming off the assembly line today is stuffed with microcontrollers and microprocessors. To coordinate all the processing power distributed throughout the vehicle, each car or truck must have its own computer network—without which the engine could not run, the brakes would not work, and...you get the idea.

When computer control was introduced to the automotive industry, each manufacturer developed proprietary architectures and protocols. This strategy proved inefficient and costly. The next step was collaboration on a set of standards to implement and use vehicle-based computer networks.

In Part 1 of this article in the January issue of EE, we introduced the On-Board Diagnostics (OBD) law and its impact on the adoption of a standard diagnostic connector for cars and light trucks sold in this country.1 The law requires that the vehicle manufacturer equip the vehicle with the connector and that it support at least one of three network standards. Two of these standards, J1850 VPW and J1850 PWM, were examined in Part 1.

Now we will look at the International Standards Organization (ISO) 9141-2, the third of the OBD network interface standards. It is used in cars and light trucks as the diagnostic connection between on-vehicle computers and off-vehicle test equipment. For practical purposes, the 9141-2 standard is a subset of the 9141 network standard for the interconnection of computers within the vehicle.

The ISO 9141-2 standard sometimes is known as the 9141 California Air Resources Board (CARB) standard. The precursor to the OBD-II law was a California regulation that originally referred to the ISO 9141 standard. Later, the CARB regulation adopted a revised standard, ISO 9141-2, subtitled CARB Requirements for Interchange of Digital Information.

The ISO 9141 is the parent of the ISO 9141-2 standard. With respect to the OSI network model, these standards refer primarily to the bottom two layers: the physical and data link.

An ISO 9141 Network

The principal characteristics of the ISO 9141-2 network are:

Physical layer: two wires (not a balanced signal).

Data rate: 10.4 kb/s.

Bit time: 96.15 µs.

The architecture of ISO 9141 departs considerably from the two J1850 networks and, in general, from most network structures. A J1850 network does not have a central or primary node, and there is no real concept of signal direction or flow.

In a J1850 network, all nodes are equal because any node may transmit a message and all nodes receive all messages. Likewise, symbol and message timing are irrespective of who is transmitting and who is receiving.

In a network compliant with ISO 9141-2, message-flow direction is important. The specification was written with respect to the connection of off-board test equipment to an ISO 9141 network-equipped vehicle. Message direction and timing issues are based on who is talking and who is listening.

The interface of interest is the vehicle diagnostic connector, also known as the J1962 connector which is the Society of Automotive Engineers specification for the connector. Figure 1 is a network block diagram.

Definitions

The symbols used in ISO 9141 are shown in Table 1. Only two symbols are really defined: logic 0 and logic 1. The significance of the Start and Stop bits is determined by where they show up.

Physical Layer

An ISO 9141 bus consists of two wires designated the K-line and L-line. Each line may exist in the high (logic 1) or low (logic 0) state. The voltage level on the wire determines the state.

Unlike J1850, the K- and L-lines do not exist in a passive or active state. When a node is powered, both lines are pulled up to the battery voltage (Vbatt) via a set of pull-up resistors. Both lines idle in the 1 state. For a node to transmit a 0, it pulls the desired line to ground and holds it there for 1-bit time.

Bus

The K-line is bidirectional and shared by all nodes in the vehicle as well as the off-board test equipment. All nodes listen to this line and transmit on it. The K-line architecture looks like the familiar wired OR circuit. This results in a logic 0 being the dominant bit on the network, the same as J1850.

The L-line is unidirectional, and only the off-board test equipment may transmit on it. Modules that support off-board diagnostics may have the requirement to listen to this line.

ISO 9141-2 Communications

The ISO 9141 network is based on the Universal Asynchronous Receiver Transmitter. This device is found in RS-232, -422, and -485 communications links.

Both Start and Stop bits are used. The signaling is non-return-to-zero. All symbols are 1 bit time in duration, and the bit time is fixed. A Start bit is a logic 0 for 1-bit time. Similarly, a Stop bit is a logic 1 for 1-bit time.

All messages are transmitted as one or more bytes. Each byte is sent as a packet of bits. A Start bit precedes a byte. Eight data bits are used. The data bits are sent as the least significant bit first to the most significant bit last. A Stop bit is appended to the end. Figure 2 is a diagram of a byte as it would appear on the K- or L-line.

Time’s Up

Unlike J1850, there are no special symbols like start-of-frame or end-of-data. The significance of 1 byte in a message as compared to another or where one message ends and another begins is strictly a function of time.

The specification defines windows for all time parameters, one for every situation. Some examples of these windows are the time between bytes from the tester or the time from the end of a vehicle message until the next tester message starts.

The various times are noted as W times and P times. At least one of the times is dynamic and dependent on where the tester is sending a message. The W times apply during the initialization phase, and the P times apply during other communications.

Anyone Home?

If you grab a J1850 interface and laptop, connect it to a vehicle, and send it an OBD-II query message such as report oil pressure (assuming everything is operational), the vehicle engine controller will respond with an oil-pressure report message. Do this with an ISO 9141-2 interface and a similarly equipped vehicle and you will not get any response.

Before an off-board tester can communicate with an on-board computer, according to ISO 9141-2, the communications link must be initialized. The initialization sequence permits the two parties, the off-board tester and the on-board computer, to recognize one another and ensure each knows who the other is as well as the means by which they will communicate.

The standard should be referenced but, in essence, here is the initialization sequence:

The tester sends 51 at 5 baud on both the K- and L-lines. Once completed, the L-line is disabled and idles in the high state.

The vehicle computer(s) wake up, but only the computer responsible for diagnostics answers with 85 at 10.4 kb/s. This is the synchronization byte.

All subsequent communications occur at 10.4 kb/s.

The vehicle computer sends Keyword #1, a 1-byte value.

The vehicle computer sends Keyword #2, a 1-byte value.

Keywords are sent seven data bits with one odd parity bit.

The tester acknowledges by sending the logic bit-wise inversion of Keyword #2.

The vehicle computer acknowledges by sending the logic bit-wise inversion of the wake-up address (that the tester sent in step 1).

At this point, the communications link is initialized and operational.

Once the link is initialized, it must be maintained. If there is no message traffic on the link for 5 s, each computer assumes communications are over. The initialization sequence must be repeated to re-establish the link. The tester may periodically transmit a keep-alive message to maintain the link.

Quick Comparison

The differences between ISO 9141-2 and J1850 extend beyond voltage levels, bit timing, and physical characteristics. Essentially, J1850 is a message-oriented protocol (a whole message is sent) while ISO 9141 is a byte-oriented protocol (one byte at a time is sent).

On a more subtle note, a J1850 network is used for both down-the-road and diagnostic messages. An ISO 9141-2 interface into an ISO 9141 network was designed to support off-board diagnostic equipment. The same interface may not be compatible when network computers are communicating while moving down the road. On an ISO 9141 network, when a tester is not present, the bus may be used by on-board computers to communicate at other baud rates and timing requirements.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:38 pm 
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Yup, i agree with the clown statement for DC... although i suppose its more a bean-counter decision than anything else! Thanks for the extract, great info

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SOLD'05 Black CRD Sport, steel bumper, Nokian 245/70, SpiderTrax, Flowmaster 40, Predator chip, Renegade light bar, EVIC, basket roof, Parrott Bluetooth.
'03 Lexus GS300 Sport Design/NAV/ML


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:09 pm 
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Blacksmoke,

If you cycle the power on your scangauge (by unplugging it), will it start displaying data again? I had also been in contact with the folks at Scangauge, and I think they said it would reconnect if you did that. Not convenient I realize, but if the Scangauge can force the engine computer to show info, the process could be automated by Scangauge. They would have to see a big enough market, and I doubt it exists. Maybe when we get to software revision 50 or so on the CRD, maybe DC's bug will be fixed.

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GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:29 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:
Blacksmoke,

If you cycle the power on your scangauge (by unplugging it), will it start displaying data again? .


Sadly, no. It works when the engine is stopped and restarted, no matter what I tried with the scangauge made it to redisplay the info. I tried to unplug, changing the scan mode (switching to a weird one like PWM then getting back to auto-mode) with no results.

The tool as a command mode from which one can send info back to the OBDII controller (or should i say controllers in our case?) ... wonder if we could find out the command to "reset"? I sure don't want to screw up things, it seems to be a programmer's nightmare as it is

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'07 GC CRD Limited, InMotion Stage-2 tuning, Parrot MK9200 Bluetooth & iPod.
'05 BMW F650GS Police Edition, HIDs, 1" lowering, Rick's custom seat.
SOLD'05 Black CRD Sport, steel bumper, Nokian 245/70, SpiderTrax, Flowmaster 40, Predator chip, Renegade light bar, EVIC, basket roof, Parrott Bluetooth.
'03 Lexus GS300 Sport Design/NAV/ML


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:26 pm 
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How does the factory EVIC keep the two computers awake? The answer may be there.

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 Post subject: Aftrmarker Scan Tools
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:54 pm 
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:P

For you guys having trouble with your aftermarket SCAN II I I found a Emissions RECALL F31 Reprogran the Transmission Control Module for the
aftermarket scan tool. I have a Red 2006 CRD Sport and I am takeing it in on the 22 for the recall. Check the Jeep recall board by VIN # thats how I
found this.

Jim Friese


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 Post subject: Scan Gage II
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:22 pm 
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:P I have been useing the scan gage II for over a week now and it seems to be working OK after I had the F31 recall done. However it does not seem to like the cruse control. When the cruse is on the MPG goes way up and stays there. I have been able to get MPG, RPM, Water Temp and MPH . Volts to read fine. with no going to sleep. I intend to keep a good check on it and I post more info later Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:57 pm 
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Just got a Scangauge. I had F31 done last week. The SG sometimes works for a long time, sometimes locks up after a few minutes. About the same as the Carchip I was using before.

People with the SG- what is your intake air temp reading? How about water temp?

I'm trying to track down why I can never get more than 20-21 MPG. I think I have a bad sensor somewhere because after a reflash in May, I got 26mpg for one tank. Then the mileage went south. The computer is adapting in the wrong direction. The dealer is unwilling to spend any time on this so I'll fix it my own self.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:01 pm 
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Funny I was just thinking today I needed to find a scan tool that was F 31 compatible. Please let us know how you like your Scanguage long term.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:27 am 
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Anyone tried AutoTap on a CRD? Mine won't work at all with my '04 European 2.5 CRD.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:37 pm 
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Since the VAG-COM runs an ISO 9141-2 interface, can we use a VAG-COM scanner to check codes and data blocks of our CRD's?

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/download/beta/500.html

Cheers,
Duey

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:42 pm 
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Not really useable that is why I sold my VAG-COM this past summer, all it would do is read codes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:59 pm 
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oldnavy wrote:
Not really useable that is why I sold my VAG-COM this past summer, all it would do is read codes.


Matt, can I read the blocks (equivalents) and see things like IQ (again, or eqvlt) to at least get an idea what's going on with my beast?

Cheers,
Duey

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:31 pm 
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DnA Diesel wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
Not really useable that is why I sold my VAG-COM this past summer, all it would do is read codes.


Matt, can I read the blocks (equivalents) and see things like IQ (again, or eqvlt) to at least get an idea what's going on with my beast?

Cheers,
Duey
Nope, or at least the version I had would not, it would just read codes. I checked with the VAG-COM folks and they said they it would probably not read all codes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:34 pm 
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:( I have been using a scan gage II for several months now and it will not work
100 % of the time. It locks up on a intermittent basis. It will work for a short time only.
I still use it on trips and after a couple of hours it locks up.
Have a nice day.


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