LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Shuddering & Stalling

Began intermittently shuddering & stalling at or near WOT, most frequently when carrying/towing a load while merging onto a freeway or accelerating uphill. Seems to usually occur upon reaching higher RPMs but has occurred a couple times almost immediately upon giving it wide throttle. Doesn't start easily once stalled but starts normally after sitting a few minutes. Dramatic loss of power after any shuddering, much like the turbo has somehow been switched off (top speed of 40 or so at WOT). If I keep driving after shudder or restart too soon after stall, then runs fine but the dramatic lack of power continues, apparently indefinitely (power only returns after shutting down & letting it sit for a few minutes). Check engine light came on after these symptoms had started and then went off though they continued. Dealership seemed baffled, tested fuel and then swapped out the EGR valve with no effect. Will be taking it back to the dealership tomorrow. Has anyone had symptoms like this? Any ideas?

Thanks,

Mike

BioJeep wrote:

There is a recall of the latest computer flash, some one posted it here on L.O.S.T. forum. Mine is in the shop for bad fuel economy and losing power, they think the last flash that was just recalled could be the problem.

I'll have to talk to the dealership about the codes & TSB---none were mentioned or indicated but I didn't ask. This Liberty is dated 03/06 & has 7200 miles on it. However, this behavior began at 2200 miles (at the start of a 5000 mile cross-country drive that I couldn't delay). I did stop at an Autozone enroute but their reader didn't pick up any codes tho the CEL was lit.

I went to Jeep.com & checked for recalls. The only one listed is "REPROGRAM TCM FOR AFTERMARKET SCAN TOOL," released on 8/14. As far as I know, no TSBs have been done to this vehicle. I'll do as suggested & talk to the dealer about doing the latest TSB.

Part of the problem may be that I'm in northern California & it seems likely that this is the first CRD the dealer has seen. They asked that I be especially patient because "we don't get these very often." But, they seem genuinely interested in providing results and so we'll see how it goes. I doubt I'd be in any better position anywhere else near me. Another CA dealership I stopped in at had never seen one and were giddy to see underhood. Thanks for all the info.

Well, the problem is back...but at least I now have a code!

P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault

Anyone seen this one before? The symptoms seem to indicate a mechanical problem as the shuddering & stalling consistently occurs with high fuel flow rates. I'll inspect tomorrow...think I'll start with those banjo bolts.

BioJeep wrote:

Can air in the fuel possibly cause any mechanical damage? I understand it can't but I am a bit concerned given the amount of driving I've done with this problem ongoing.

Author:	BioJeep [ Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:30 am ]
Post subject:	Shuddering & Stalling
Began intermittently shuddering & stalling at or near WOT, most frequently when carrying/towing a load while merging onto a freeway or accelerating uphill. Seems to usually occur upon reaching higher RPMs but has occurred a couple times almost immediately upon giving it wide throttle. Doesn't start easily once stalled but starts normally after sitting a few minutes. Dramatic loss of power after any shuddering, much like the turbo has somehow been switched off (top speed of 40 or so at WOT). If I keep driving after shudder or restart too soon after stall, then runs fine but the dramatic lack of power continues, apparently indefinitely (power only returns after shutting down & letting it sit for a few minutes). Check engine light came on after these symptoms had started and then went off though they continued. Dealership seemed baffled, tested fuel and then swapped out the EGR valve with no effect. Will be taking it back to the dealership tomorrow. Has anyone had symptoms like this? Any ideas? Thanks, Mike

Author:	no-blue-screen [ Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuddering & Stalling
BioJeep wrote: Began intermittently shuddering & stalling at or near WOT, most frequently when carrying/towing a load while merging onto a freeway or accelerating uphill. Seems to usually occur upon reaching higher RPMs but has occurred a couple times almost immediately upon giving it wide throttle. Doesn't start easily once stalled but starts normally after sitting a few minutes. Dramatic loss of power after any shuddering, much like the turbo has somehow been switched off (top speed of 40 or so at WOT). If I keep driving after shudder or restart too soon after stall, then runs fine but the dramatic lack of power continues, apparently indefinitely (power only returns after shutting down & letting it sit for a few minutes). Check engine light came on after these symptoms had started and then went off though they continued. Dealership seemed baffled, tested fuel and then swapped out the EGR valve with no effect. Will be taking it back to the dealership tomorrow. Has anyone had symptoms like this? Any ideas? Thanks, Mike What were the codes that got stored after the CEL came on? Did the dealer tell you what code(s) it gave? You went into what is called "Limp" mode. When this happens the vehicled locks in 2nd gear and there is no turbo. Waiting 5 minutes or so and starting it back up you should be fine. Anyway, your problems sound more like the transmission to me. Did they do the latest TSB dated 7-14? You can find out by asking them if they did TSB 18-023-06. If they didn't and they are stumped...have them perform that TSB first and see if anything improves. It might also be a fueling issue as well. How many miles do you have on it? Also, how long ago did it start doing this? EDIT: Also, could be the MAF. But you really need to know what those codes are.

Author:	kjfishman [ Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuddering & Stalling
BioJeep wrote: Began intermittently shuddering & stalling at or near WOT, most frequently when carrying/towing a load while merging onto a freeway or accelerating uphill. Seems to usually occur upon reaching higher RPMs but has occurred a couple times almost immediately upon giving it wide throttle. Doesn't start easily once stalled but starts normally after sitting a few minutes. Dramatic loss of power after any shuddering, much like the turbo has somehow been switched off (top speed of 40 or so at WOT). If I keep driving after shudder or restart too soon after stall, then runs fine but the dramatic lack of power continues, apparently indefinitely (power only returns after shutting down & letting it sit for a few minutes). Check engine light came on after these symptoms had started and then went off though they continued. Dealership seemed baffled, tested fuel and then swapped out the EGR valve with no effect. Will be taking it back to the dealership tomorrow. Has anyone had symptoms like this? Any ideas? Thanks, Mike There is a recall of the latest computer flash, some one posted it here on lost forum. Mine is in the shop for bad fuel economy and losing power, they think the last flash that was just recalled could be the problem.

Author:	no-blue-screen [ Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuddering & Stalling
kjfishman wrote: BioJeep wrote: Began intermittently shuddering & stalling at or near WOT, most frequently when carrying/towing a load while merging onto a freeway or accelerating uphill. Seems to usually occur upon reaching higher RPMs but has occurred a couple times almost immediately upon giving it wide throttle. Doesn't start easily once stalled but starts normally after sitting a few minutes. Dramatic loss of power after any shuddering, much like the turbo has somehow been switched off (top speed of 40 or so at WOT). If I keep driving after shudder or restart too soon after stall, then runs fine but the dramatic lack of power continues, apparently indefinitely (power only returns after shutting down & letting it sit for a few minutes). Check engine light came on after these symptoms had started and then went off though they continued. Dealership seemed baffled, tested fuel and then swapped out the EGR valve with no effect. Will be taking it back to the dealership tomorrow. Has anyone had symptoms like this? Any ideas? Thanks, Mike There is a recall of the latest computer flash, some one posted it here on L.O.S.T. forum. Mine is in the shop for bad fuel economy and losing power, they think the last flash that was just recalled could be the problem. Just to clear things up, the TSB I give above is not the TSB that were recalled. The TSB that were recalled are from March of 2006 (TSBs 18-008-06 & 18-009-06). Look for emissions recall F31. Also, you can go to the jeep website and put in the last 8 of your VIN and it will tell you if your vehicle requires the recall...which I am guessing it does. Just do what I am doing and have them do the latest TSB which is 18-023-06. This TSB also resolved the recall issue as well.

Author:	BioJeep [ Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:
I'll have to talk to the dealership about the codes & TSB---none were mentioned or indicated but I didn't ask. This Liberty is dated 03/06 & has 7200 miles on it. However, this behavior began at 2200 miles (at the start of a 5000 mile cross-country drive that I couldn't delay). I did stop at an Autozone enroute but their reader didn't pick up any codes tho the CEL was lit. I went to Jeep.com & checked for recalls. The only one listed is "REPROGRAM TCM FOR AFTERMARKET SCAN TOOL," released on 8/14. As far as I know, no TSBs have been done to this vehicle. I'll do as suggested & talk to the dealer about doing the latest TSB. Part of the problem may be that I'm in northern California & it seems likely that this is the first CRD the dealer has seen. They asked that I be especially patient because "we don't get these very often." But, they seem genuinely interested in providing results and so we'll see how it goes. I doubt I'd be in any better position anywhere else near me. Another CA dealership I stopped in at had never seen one and were giddy to see underhood. Thanks for all the info.

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Author:	no-blue-screen [ Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:
BioJeep wrote: I'll have to talk to the dealership about the codes & TSB---none were mentioned or indicated but I didn't ask. This Liberty is dated 03/06 & has 7200 miles on it. However, this behavior began at 2200 miles (at the start of a 5000 mile cross-country drive that I couldn't delay). I did stop at an Autozone enroute but their reader didn't pick up any codes tho the CEL was lit. I went to Jeep.com & checked for recalls. The only one listed is "REPROGRAM TCM FOR AFTERMARKET SCAN TOOL," released on 8/14. As far as I know, no TSBs have been done to this vehicle. I'll do as suggested & talk to the dealer about doing the latest TSB. Part of the problem may be that I'm in northern California & it seems likely that this is the first CRD the dealer has seen. They asked that I be especially patient because "we don't get these very often." But, they seem genuinely interested in providing results and so we'll see how it goes. I doubt I'd be in any better position anywhere else near me. Another CA dealership I stopped in at had never seen one and were giddy to see underhood. Thanks for all the info. Ahh, sounds like you have a lot of fun is store for you. It's hard enough for those of us in Non-CARB states to find competant CRD techs...I can't imagine Cali where they don't even sell em. The TSB is simply a reflash of the ECM and TCM....so it won't require any parts. Check out the following thread and print out the TSB and take it to them. Many times you have to actually show them and this new TSB is listed as "do it if the vehicle is in for service": http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=10536 Scroll down and someone posted the links to alldata where you can print out the pages of the TSB.

Author:	BioJeep [ Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Continuation...
OK, last I wrote the EGR valve had just been replaced by the dealer & yet the Jeep had gone into limp-mode (stalling once) at or near WOT (as described above) 3 times in the first 50 miles of driving. However, it hasn't happened whatsoever since although nothing further has been done. She's ran just fine in the last ~800 miles. I put over 300 miles on her yesterday w/trailer (much on mountain grades) & put her thru the paces trying to make it re-occur with no luck. In these circumstances, it used to be that at least 1 of every 2 WOT accelerations triggered limp-mode or stall. So, I'm tentatively declaring her fixed. My question is: what could explain this delay in correction of the symptoms following EGR valve replacemnt? Could some operational parameter(s) have been affected by a malfunctioning EGR valve that simply took a while to be over-written in memory? It's the only possibility that comes to mind but I don't know so much about the operation & role of the computers in these things. Did anyone else with EGR problems have symptoms like mine? Is limp-mode frequently triggered by EGR malfunction? Is this plausible?

Author:	Reggie [ Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:
When was the last time the fuel filter was changed? The engine missing at higher RPMs or under load are symptoms of a plugged fuel filter.

Author:	Cowcatcher [ Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:
There are a couple of things to consider here. First of all the miles driven tells me you have gone through a tank or two of fuel so contaminated fuel might be a consideration. The other thing that might have happened is that you were just going into that state where the TC doesn't know wheter to lock or not because it hadn't figured out your driving habits befiore and now it has.

Author:	BioJeep [ Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:23 am ]
Post subject:
Fuel contamination was my first thought, as was the dealer's. The dealer checked the fuel & didn't find anything. However, unless the dealer did it without mentioning, the fuel filter has yet to be changed, & so that could be it. I may swap in a new filter just to be sure. As far as the torque converter goes, I would doubt it since it ran perfectly for the first 2200 miles & then ran with this problem for the next 5000. But, I wonder...it could explain both the shudder & stall. Maybe it was a malfunction separate of its learning function. However, the stalls, tho sudden, often happened without any vibration or shock. It was really just the sudden loss of power. Sometimes there would be some shuddering prior to a stall, but it wasn't particularly violent. The shudder felt somewhat like the brakes were being lightly applied about twice per second or so. It was a regular pulsation (not jerking or violent) that accompanied a significant loss of power. It would often simply shudder until going into limp-mode, without stalling. Could the TC repeatedly locking & unlocking feel like this? Could it cause a stall without causing any significant vibration detectable by the driver? A clogged filter sounds more plausible to me but then could a clogged filter unclog itself? What I'm mainly curious of, however, is could a malfunctioning EGR valve possibly cause this sort of behavior?

Author:	Cowcatcher [ Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:00 am ]
Post subject:
Hummmm.........seems like at least one person on this forum, maybe not the CRD section but the General section, mentioned a faulty ABS or ESP problem. The ESP system will cut power in addition to applying brakes. I think this could also trigger flipping you into a "Limp" mode.

Author:	retmil46 [ Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:58 am ]
Post subject:
Prior to the EGR replacement on mine, about every two tanks I'd start to get a mild stutter-step and/or misfire under certain conditions. I'd reprime the fuel filter, getting a good bit of air out of it, and the condition would go away for another two tanks or so. Tech noticed the same misfire condition when testing mine after replacing the EGR. Service advisor called me and asked if I'd seen the same conditions, and I related what I'd been thru with repriming the fuel filter. From what I found after getting the vehicle back, the tech tightened down on the banjo fittings. Haven't had any problem with stutter-step or misfire since, and haven't had to bother repriming the fuel filter either.

Author:	BioJeep [ Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:
Well, the problem is back...but at least I now have a code! P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault Anyone seen this one before? The symptoms seem to indicate a mechanical problem as the shuddering & stalling consistently occurs with high fuel flow rates. I'll inspect tomorrow...think I'll start with those banjo bolts.

Author:	retmil46 [ Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:
BioJeep wrote: Well, the problem is back...but at least I now have a code! P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault Anyone seen this one before? The symptoms seem to indicate a mechanical problem as the shuddering & stalling consistently occurs with high fuel flow rates. I'll inspect tomorrow...think I'll start with those banjo bolts. First off, try repriming your fuel filter. If you get a good bit of air out, you've pretty much confirmed you've got an air leak some place. Most likely places this could occur at are the hose connections, banjo fittings, quick connects just in front of the fuel tank, or something fubar with the gaskets on the filter. Another possibility is that the bleed screw on the filter head wasn't tightened down properly. Another possibility is that even though the dealer said the fuel tested fine, if you haven't been using biocide you might have a case of microbe contamination. Resultant sludge/crud in the bottom of the tank can end up clogging up even a new filter in short order. On mine, the tech forgot to tighten the bleed screw on the filter back down, and sitting over the weekend the fuel system lost it's prime, such that on Monday when I went to pick it up, you could crank it till you were blue in the face and nothing would happen. They pulled it back inside, tightened everything down (including the bleed screw this time), reprimed the system, and it's ran like a champ since. That's how it started on mine last December, actually cut off on me 5 times when asking for high power/fuel rates. Next morning couldn't even get it out of the driveway, and it threw P0093.

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Author:	RFCRD [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:07 am ]
Post subject:
BioJeep wrote: Well, the problem is back...but at least I now have a code! P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault Anyone seen this one before? The symptoms seem to indicate a mechanical problem as the shuddering & stalling consistently occurs with high fuel flow rates. I'll inspect tomorrow...think I'll start with those banjo bolts. Keep in mind while you are looking for a leak, it may not show-up as something visibly wet or dripping with fuel. More likely a suction leak (sucking air) though a fitting or seal. The most common place for this type of leak is near the filter (fittings, bleeder nipple, WIF sensor, filter canister/top seal) and can be aggrivated by a partially constricted/old filter. Sometimes the easiest thing to do is start by changing the filter and see if it goes away.

Author:	Pablo [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuddering & Stalling
kjfishman wrote: BioJeep wrote: Began intermittently shuddering & stalling at or near WOT, most frequently when carrying/towing a load while merging onto a freeway or accelerating uphill. Seems to usually occur upon reaching higher RPMs but has occurred a couple times almost immediately upon giving it wide throttle. Doesn't start easily once stalled but starts normally after sitting a few minutes. Dramatic loss of power after any shuddering, much like the turbo has somehow been switched off (top speed of 40 or so at WOT). If I keep driving after shudder or restart too soon after stall, then runs fine but the dramatic lack of power continues, apparently indefinitely (power only returns after shutting down & letting it sit for a few minutes). Check engine light came on after these symptoms had started and then went off though they continued. Dealership seemed baffled, tested fuel and then swapped out the EGR valve with no effect. Will be taking it back to the dealership tomorrow. Has anyone had symptoms like this? Any ideas? Thanks, Mike There is a recall of the latest computer flash, some one posted it here on L.O.S.T. forum. Mine is in the shop for bad fuel economy and losing power, they think the last flash that was just recalled could be the problem. They are recalling the recalls... great. I can't wait for the ball joint recall recall recall! I don't think I will ever buy another DC product. Sad, but true.

Author:	roxylulu22 [ Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:	P0093 Fuel system Code
Well, the problem is back...but at least I now have a code! P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault Anyone seen this one before? The symptoms seem to indicate a mechanical problem as the shuddering & stalling consistently occurs with high fuel flow rates. I'll inspect tomorrow...think I'll start with those banjo bolts. I encountered similar problems with my CRD. Loss of power sometimes, shuddering and finally one day it just died. I had it towed to the dealership and that is the code they also got (P0093). It turned out to be a faulty Fuel Quantity Solenoid. After I got the Jeep back it ran great, no shuddering, ran really smooth, but I dropped from 27 MPG to about 22 MPG. Now after a week or two the shuddering is back and MPG is back up. Maybe it is ready to die again, I do not know. I hope this helps you.

Author:	BioJeep [ Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Update
I bled the system & got a lot of air. Torqued everything down to specification. Found the 2 hose clamps at the fuel filter to be quite loose (less than finger tight) & figured they likely have been the problem. The banjo bolts on the fuel filter mount seemed snug but I haven't checked the two at the pump. The fuel filter & water separator both seemed tight. Took it for a couple good tho short test drives, one w/trailer, & could not make it reoccur. Then went for a half-hour drive yesterday over a very long but mild climb at low speed (rough dirt road). No problem there but went into Limp upon starting up another long hill immediately following decent of the first (this one paved). Restarted fine after a 2 minute wait but then stalled very suddenly upon continuing uphill (made it 500 feet or so). It proceeded to repeatedly go into Limp as long as I continued uphill (every few hundred feet or so; I turned around after about half a dozen). Drove it gingerly in order to get home but did try to make it happen by accelerating hard a couple times towards the end. It happened one more time, this time accelerating hard up another long hill. At this point it seems likely that it is the connection at the pump or at the tank, but I'm sure there could still be a defective seal at the fuel filter. Anyway, I've had enough fun & will take it back to the dealer. Can air in the fuel possibly cause any mechanical damage? I understand it can't but I am a bit concerned given the amount of driving I've done with this problem ongoing. Thanks for all the input.

Author:	RFCRD [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Update
BioJeep wrote: Can air in the fuel possibly cause any mechanical damage? I understand it can't but I am a bit concerned given the amount of driving I've done with this problem ongoing. Yes and No. As with all diesels, it is possible to damage a pump and/or injectors as fuel acts as fuel, coolant, and a lubricant. Excess air can cause foaming (extreme case) which can cause damage. This usually happens when you run low on fuel (thus I don't like to run a diesel under 1/4 tank). In your case, it's doubtful you caused any damage. I would think the CRD would buck like an old mule if you got enough air to cause fuel foaming?!? Two things I have been wondering: Did you get some bad bean juice? Knowing how biodiesel is hard on rubber parts, just wonder if it attacks the rubber o-ring seal around the top if the filter or where the WIF sensor screw into the bottom? Haven't had my filter off yet to see if anything is turning gummy.

Author:	BioJeep [ Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Yup, I haven't had any bucking or anything like that, although maybe the limp mode is preventing things from getting to that point. I'm sure it is possible that the bean juice could have degraded a seal but I would be surprised it could have done anything so quickly. This problem began at 2200 miles, up until which I had ran strictly on B100. I have since ran on dino juice & now have about 8500 on the clock. So, any degredation would have had to have happened within those first 2200 miles. Also, all my bean juice was commercial & supposedly of ASTM quality. One piece I haven't mentioned is that I towed a 3000 lb trailer thru mountainous terrain most of those first 2200 miles with no issues. The Jeep then sat for a month and a half (w/full tank of bean juice). It was about 20 miles into its first drive after sitting parked that this problem arose. It seems strange to me that I had no issue until then, especially since I had driven it fairly hard all that time before. I don't see how having it parked could have caused anything though it may have given time for some seal to degrade.