Dealer's answer to oil in respiratory system

DocB · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:10 pm

Just got home after leaving the Liberty at the dealer for 2 days to perform recall F31.
With 4600 miles on the vehicle, I thought it would also be a good time to give them
a "list" (full sheet) of things to do and check.
I specifically asked the service associate to focus on the last 10 lines at the bottom
of the page listing all the components of the air/respiratory system that were already
polluted and built up with excessive engine oil sludge. I also asked them to clean it out
because it shoud not be there (already).
(I plan on doing the EHM real soon, but wanted documentation before I did it).
This prompted a big meeting with the 2 service managers(I kept my cool but let them know I
knew what I was talking about).
After asking the question 3 times and 3 different ways(if it was normal to have engine oil
in the air system) and what was going to be done now and when the intercooler became half filled with
oil, I only received over and over again what seemed like a cold, prerehearsed answer-
"This is characteristic of diesel engines".
Since I knew at that point that I was spinning my wheels, I asked if I could speak to the
Regional Territory Manager. They agreed to bring him in and set up a meeting within the next
2 weeks.
My question to all of you is what do I need to specifically need to ask and get answered
at this meeting regarding these issues and how it affects our future warranty and repair/fix.
The outcome of this meeting is official, on the record and will be in writting.
Awaiting your reply,

DocB.....

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:18 pm

I think we need to get an answer from them WHY there is no type of filter/media/chamber to pull the oil/fluid out of the crankcase mixture of gases that is being directed back into the air track near the MAF and continues to travel thru the whole system again.

DocB · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:45 pm

Thanks DarbyWalters for the reply. Yes, that is one of the questions I will ask him and
what they are planning to do about it and when.
Any more "specific" questions anyone?

I"ll let you all know when I am done with him.

litton · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:49 pm

Great Job......First you need to catch their attention, which it sounds like you did.

Second, the arguement that this is normal for diesel engines needs to be refuted, unless it's indeed a true statement. What does Dodge do with the Cummins? Do they have intercoolers and do they have a similiar problem? For the small engines like ours and VW, how do others prevent the problem or is it truely "normal".

I hope those with great knowledge chime in and help you out.

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

DocB wrote:

Just got home after leaving the Liberty at the dealer for 2 days to perform recall F31.
With 4600 miles on the vehicle, I thought it would also be a good time to give them
a "list" (full sheet) of things to do and check.
I specifically asked the service associate to focus on the last 10 lines at the bottom
of the page listing all the components of the air/respiratory system that were already
polluted and built up with excessive engine oil sludge. I also asked them to clean it out
because it shoud not be there (already).
(I plan on doing the EHM real soon, but wanted documentation before I did it).
This prompted a big meeting with the 2 service managers(I kept my cool but let them know I
knew what I was talking about).
After asking the question 3 times and 3 different ways(if it was normal to have engine oil
in the air system) and what was going to be done now and when the intercooler became half filled with
oil, I only received over and over again what seemed like a cold, prerehearsed answer-
"This is characteristic of diesel engines".
Since I knew at that point that I was spinning my wheels, I asked if I could speak to the
Regional Territory Manager. They agreed to bring him in and set up a meeting within the next
2 weeks.
My question to all of you is what do I need to specifically need to ask and get answered
at this meeting regarding these issues and how it affects our future warranty and repair/fix.
The outcome of this meeting is official, on the record and will be in writting.
Awaiting your reply,

DocB.....

One obvious question, for those who have NOT purchased the extended wty, are the turbo charger and intercooler covered under the 7/70 powertrain warranty? I remember seeing that they are, in fact, covered - but I have not consulted with my warranty booklet in a while.

DocB · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:00 pm

Well, if the turbo blows (actually doesn't) it would be a very definitive problem.
But what about the intercooler?
If it becomes polluted, efficiency drops...
If it becomes very polluted, a very constricted air flow problem occurs.....
Then what?

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:57 pm

Tell them that it is frustrating for the consumer when the warranty periods covered change from week to week...They should be more consistent and BACK THEIR STUFF UP.

Why not design a better LCA with a heavy duty ball joint that doesn't put KJ owners at risk? Even if it is something that we could buy as an upgrade for cost...just to show good faith. This thing has gone on from the beginning in 2001 (when the 2002s went on sale).

Let them know that most of us still love our KJs even with the problems...but we would like to feel that way about DC but can't because of the run-around we get.

trac95ker · **Joined:** Tue May 23, 2006 3:02 pm **Posts:** 116

Ask them to pay for and install an air oil seperator (provent) I'm so sick of my dealers attitude, I have'nt done the recall yet.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

My 02 Powerstroke has the same ccv set up as my crd. Does it put oil in the intercooler? YES. However, I have read where guys pull the cooler after hundreds of thousands of miles and have a few ounces, not quarts of oil in them. There are mods out there for both vehicles to take care of the issue, but I just don't see it as a major problem. My advice, stop looking at the inside of your hoses and just drive the thing.

KJMedic · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:02 am

Ask about the EGR valve!!!! This is one of the main problems with what seems like all of the CRDs. It may be that only the ones with problems are speaking out (most likely) but there are alot of them. What do they plan on doing about them. I saw on ebay an EGR valve for $209. Thats alot of change for something thats going out every 5-7k miles.

Thanks for being persistant.

oz_crd · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:56 am

midwest wrote:

My 02 Powerstroke has the same ccv set up as my crd. Does it put oil in the intercooler? YES. However, I have read where guys pull the cooler after hundreds of thousands of miles and have a few ounces, not quarts of oil in them. There are mods out there for both vehicles to take care of the issue, but I just don't see it as a major problem. My advice, stop looking at the inside of your hoses and just drive the thing.

That is great for you guys with Powerstrokes, but do you also own a CRD? In the 12,000 miles since I put the Provent CCV filter in I have captured maybe a pint (16oz) of blowby. If it was just on the order of an ounce/100k miles we wouldnt be as worried about it. I have had one EGR replaced already, and really dont want to worry about it once the extended warranty is over. As for the ball joints, Moog is already selling a redesigned unit that corrects the flaws in the Jeep design. Too bad whoever tells the dealer what to do refused to use that part when mine were replaced, even though i offered to pay for the part. Something about they cant warranty someone else's part. I just told them, no problem, you can just do the replacement again with your part in another 16k miles.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

Read the post, I have one of each.

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

midwest wrote:

My 02 Powerstroke has the same ccv set up as my crd. Does it put oil in the intercooler? YES. However, I have read where guys pull the cooler after hundreds of thousands of miles and have a few ounces, not quarts of oil in them. There are mods out there for both vehicles to take care of the issue, but I just don't see it as a major problem. My advice, stop looking at the inside of your hoses and just drive the thing.

ha ha ha ha funny point you bring up here. I had an aunt/uncle that had a MB turbo-diesel from the 80's. Almost 150k on the motor - no mods and no filtration system - car ran fine. Just blew a little extra black smoke the older it got. I am not worrying about the CCV issue. Even if it has to be cleaned, there are maintenance items you have to do on a regular gas powered car too like tunes up and stuff like that.

The CRD has issues, the blow-by oil issue is a Diesel motor issue, not a CRD issue. The mods won't hurt it. Will probably help it stay cleaner and run cleaner .... but oil will still pass thru ... just smaller amounts when modified.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I am not worrying about the CCV issue. Even if it has to be cleaned, there are maintenance items you have to do on a regular gas powered car too like tunes up and stuff like that.

Oh yes, these things tend to take care of themselves alright . After all, a tune up will cost you $75 to a $100 bucks for 4 spark plugs and maybe a pcv valve and air filter.

On the CRD,Lets see, IC and intake cover removal on a CRD, say $1000 - $1200. After all, the FSM recommends pulling the radiator fan, drive assembly, alternator, egr connection, all drive belts and engine fan/vicsous coupling, along with evacuating the AC system and draining the coolant, then the main engine wiring harness, egr cooling lines and the intake tube/egr air flow control valve, before pulling the timing cover and pulling the timing pulleys, before removing the injectors, which required depressurizing the 24,000 psi fuel rail first, then pulling the one piece intake and valve cover head. This also requires removing the fuel rail, the camshaft position sensor and the combination air temperature/boost pressure sensor as well, since they are mounted on the one piece integrated intake/cylinder valve cover.

But, they discover on removing the injectors that the ends are coked up with black unburned substances - could it be one of the 30 or so additives that engine oil has, that is missing in diesel fuel? Additives like plastisizers, zince, boron, calcium, all designed to keep engine oil from burning, from vaporizing, the exact opposite of what good diesel fuel should do? Coked up unlike the 25 year old MB, because the nozzle holes are so small on modern injectors that its hard to see them. But you get the picture on how much labor there is to remove the valve cover/intake system on the CRD because its all integrated and so compactly sized into the engine bay. I didn't include the cost of evacuating and, vacuuming and recharging the AC system - lets assume its included in your basic $1200 charge, though that may not be the case.

So, a new set of inject tips most likely, lets say another $600 if you really get lucky, for just the nozzles, and then another $250 for labor to rebuild them. Then there are those 2 IC hoses, the special, silicon lined high pressure hoses, that have been eaten away by the engine oil, so lets add another $200 for a set of those. Now, what are we up to at 75K miles, assuming the oil didn't cause the IC to bottle up and blow a joint seal from too much boost inside.

Lets add $1200 for the cleaning, removal, and timing belt reinstallation, $850 for rebuilding your coked injectors with rebuilt nozzle tips, that's over $2000 so far, plust $200 for new IC hoses that were broken down by engine oil coating them under 10 to 20 psi of very hot compressed air. Ok, we're up to $2250 if the blowby turns out to be excessive after all. Of course, you could reason that it would cost maybe $200 for gas tuneup, so maybe $2 grand (with a good customer discount! - for all those egr valves you keep replacing) isn't so unreasonable for routine maintnance. If you think the intake cleaning price is high, see what VW is charging just to remove the TDI intake, which is separate from the valve cover and does not require pulling the radiator and camshaft pulleys, and clean it. Anywhere from $600 to $1000 from posts on tdi club.

Ok, now, suppose DC put a $75 CCV system from the factory and it stopped all but maybe an ounce per year from getting into the intake system. So at 75K miles, no expensive intake/valve cover system removal, but lets say you still need new IC hoses. Probably wouldnt, but lets throw in $200 for a set. $200 versus $2000 is a real possibility. The CRD won't be an inexpensive intake cleaning.

Sometimes a little planning ahead can save some serious money. Has nothing to do with worry.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

I didn't realize the sky was falling in on me so quickly! Heck, between my CRD and Powerstroke i'm probably looking at about 10 grand every few years to clean the inside of the engine,,,and all the hoses too.

oz_crd · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:35 pm

midwest wrote:

I didn't realize the sky was falling in on me so quickly! Heck, between my CRD and Powerstroke i'm probably looking at about 10 grand every few years to clean the inside of the engine,,,and all the hoses too.

Its a free country dude, so it's your choice if you just want to ignore the oil building up in you intake. No reason to cut on those who like to take pre-emptive measures. It just usually works out better taking action than "letting things take care of themselves."

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:44 pm

I've owned a 99.5 jetta tdi diesel and have experienced the oil issue first hand. The oil vapor mixes with the soot from the EGR gas and causes a build up in the intake manifold. At 60k miles it was pretty bad and now at 120 it needs cleaned again

It's now my son's and is in semi retirement and not driven 35k a year anymore. I'm sorry to say it's a common problem. VW uses the same filter device as our CRD's have. Looks identical. For $150 I installed a provent on my crd and it's a small sum and I'll need to remove it before taking it in for service :roll:

What I'm concerned about is the transmission and torque converter :shock:

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

I am not worrying about the CCV issue. Even if it has to be cleaned, there are maintenance items you have to do on a regular gas powered car too like tunes up and stuff like that.

Oh yes, these things tend to take care of themselves alright . After all, a tune up will cost you $75 to a $100 bucks for 4 spark plugs and maybe a pcv valve and air filter.

Sometimes a little planning ahead can save some serious money. Has nothing to do with worry.

All speculation - these things havent been on the road long enough to know whether the build up is going to be significant by the time it hits 100k or the bulk of it blown out the tailpipe. The mod reduces the amount of blow-by. It doesnt eliminate it.

If you're right, you're still going to have to do the turbo/intercooler cleaning, maybe a little bit later than those who haven't done the mod. Or maybe not.

Will you really have the truck that long? Do most people really put 125/150K on them? Or does something sweeter come to market 4 or 5 years from now that catches our eye, has a better, quieter diesel set up and adios CRD?

Again, more speculation ... The MB of 25 years ago ran on dirtier diesel fuel than today and still chugging along but louder and smokier.

They are cars. Drive em, enjoy em.

PS - Man if you can do a $75 tune-up for me on my gasser, that'd be awesome! :shock:

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I didn't realize the sky was falling in on me so quickly!

It's not falling! You're strking oil! Just keep driving bareback - if it clogs up, pony up $1200 - $2000 grand and you're back up and running in less than a week - no worries. Your dealer's happy, you're not walking anymore and the whole economy just booms. Heck you could write a poem about the experience, maybe the dealership will buy a copy - you could recoup $4, maybe even $5 bucks. If you don't keep the money flowing through the system, the whole thing just stagnates. You'll actually be promoting a healthy economy.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:04 pm

richardkf wrote:

All speculation - these things havent been on the road long enough to know whether the build up is going to be significant by the time it hits 100k or the bulk of it blown out the tailpipe. The mod reduces the amount of blow-by. It doesnt eliminate it.

If you're right, you're still going to have to do the turbo/intercooler cleaning, maybe a little bit later than those who haven't done the mod. Or maybe not.

Will you really have the truck that long? Do most people really put 125/150K on them? Or does something sweeter come to market 4 or 5 years from now that catches our eye, has a better, quieter diesel set up and adios CRD?

Again, more speculation ... The MB of 25 years ago ran on dirtier diesel fuel than today and still chugging along but louder and smokier.

They are cars. Drive em, enjoy em.

PS - Man if you can do a $75 tune-up for me on my gasser, that'd be awesome! :shock:

Let me say that speaking from experience in pulling the EGR Flow control valve.
The input to the EGR Flow Control Valve is the CAC output hose.
I can personally say, not speculate that the EGR Flow Control valve was coated with wet oily soot (sludge) at 25K.
Now if that large orifice on the flow control valve is covered with 1/4 inch sludge, the cooling vanes in the intercooler are much smaller in diameter and you can imagine what is in there.
There is no doubt or speculation that the CCV being routed to the input of the turbo compressor and then spewing into the intercooler is a BAD DESIGN!
When you put 25K plus on yours without running a CCV mod, check the output of the CAC and specifically where that CAC output hose mates to the EGR Flow Control Valve. I speculate that you will not be happy.
Now if this is after the intercooler you can just imagine what the intercooler looks like. This was just after 25K miles!

Dealer's answer to oil in respiratory system

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