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Weird behavior
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12527		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  bigcanoe [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Weird behavior
When I park my CRD with the front facing down a slight incline (my driveway) for more than 24 hours without starting, sometimes when I start it I get this:

1) It starts fine, I shift in to reverse to back out of driveway.
2) There is very little power/movement when I press the accelerator, I really have to rev it up to get it to move
3) Sometimes when I come to my first stop (stop sign), I get some shuddering and the occasional stall.

Any ideas?
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:12 am ]
Post subject: 
You may have the defective transmission filter, or a low fluid level. The shuddering and stalling doesn't really fit with those though.
Author:  Endurance [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Exactly the same here! I always park at an incline at my house. When I turn it on in the morning I leave it idling for about 10s, that helps.
Author:  oldnavy [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Goglio704 wrote:
You may have the defective transmission filter, or a low fluid level. The shuddering and stalling doesn't really fit with those though.
Actually that is exactly what a very low fluid level or torque converter that has a filter that allows for the draining of the fluid out to the pan does. If this is not corrected before too many miles you will suffer a tolal failure of the tranny.

Next time you drive the vehicle and have it total warmed up such as after driving about 10 miles and then pull it on a level spot with it in park and check fluid level. There are two sets of holes on the dipstick, the lower end being marked cold and you need to ignore those. The upoper two marked HOT is where you check it at for being full. It needs to be toward the top of those two upper holes on the dipstick, and if by chance you got it serviced or the TSB done for filter change then they should have used about 7.5 quarts to refill the tranny. The FSM says 4.7L for refill, but D/C knows it is not correct and I guess the correction is forth coming in the future.
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:59 am ]
Post subject: 
I think this would be the relevant TSB. Found in the TSBs sticky.

http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Chrysler/114 ... index.html
Author:  oldnavy [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
That is the correct TSB most likely for your problem. The one thing incorrect is the TSB states 4 qts of tranny fluid to be used, where it takes about twice that amount of tranny fluid to fill the tranny. If only 4 qts used you will leave the dealership with same problem made worse by being 4 quarts low and the tranny will eventually self distruct. Factory fill is approx 14 qts and that is not all going to stay in TC, cooler & pump when the pan is dropped and the valve body removed to change the two filters.

Also there was an early on service note that was about some being shipped low on tranny fluid.

This tranny is a really solid built tranny, but with some minor software problems. The fluid thing with the filter change and the lack of dealers doing the TSB is what has lead to so many problems with this tranny. Ours is smooth as silk and has had no bad shifting except after service/TSB when lack of enough fluid caused problem that was quickly corrected.
Author:  bigcanoe [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
I checked the ATF and it seemed ok. When I take it in for the LBJ recall I will have them check that TSB.

Thanks!
Author:  RFCRD [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
bigcanoe wrote:
When I park my CRD with the front facing down a slight incline (my driveway) for more than 24 hours without starting, sometimes when I start it I get this:

1) It starts fine, I shift in to reverse to back out of driveway.
2) There is very little power/movement when I press the accelerator, I really have to rev it up to get it to move
3) Sometimes when I come to my first stop (stop sign), I get some shuddering and the occasional stall.

Any ideas?

Common. When you park a Liberty facing downhill, the tranny fluid runs to the front of the pan. The oil pick-up tube can only suck a limited amount of fluid before it is sucking air. Thus it won't back up-hill, or if it does it will slip & shudder. DC tech reps are well aware of the problem and was even cautioned against forcing it to back as it will damage the tranny (too bad). When I complained about the same problem, was told to adjust my driving so I wouldn't have to back up-hill. ie... they don't have a fix but getting the filter TSB done helped in my case.
Author:  oldnavy [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
RFCRD wrote:
bigcanoe wrote:
When I park my CRD with the front facing down a slight incline (my driveway) for more than 24 hours without starting, sometimes when I start it I get this:

1) It starts fine, I shift in to reverse to back out of driveway.
2) There is very little power/movement when I press the accelerator, I really have to rev it up to get it to move
3) Sometimes when I come to my first stop (stop sign), I get some shuddering and the occasional stall.

Any ideas?

Common. When you park a Liberty facing downhill, the tranny fluid runs to the front of the pan. The oil pick-up tube can only suck a limited amount of fluid before it is sucking air. Thus it won't back up-hill, or if it does it will slip & shudder. DC tech reps are well aware of the problem and was even cautioned against forcing it to back as it will damage the tranny (too bad). When I complained about the same problem, was told to adjust my driving so I wouldn't have to back up-hill. ie... they don't have a fix but getting the filter TSB done helped in my case.
Ours has been parked several times like that and never did the shudder, but it was allowed to idle about a minute before putting it in gear.. I suspect that a improper filter is in use and or the tranny is low on fluid or you are not waiting long enough for fuild to pump up.
Author:  bigcanoe [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 
I think the times I did it, I just started and went, a bad idea I know, this weekend I was trying to get out of the driveway so we could back a uhaul in that was blocking the street. Its parked the same way every day, and this has only happened twice.
Author:  I<3myCRD [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:39 am ]
Post subject: 
This exact thing happens to me. I had my tranny "rebuilt" over 2 months ago (including new TC and filters) and It still does it, Just not as much. I've been struggling w/ the dealer to fix it but they have no clue. I have a service appointment w/ the "regional engineer" on oct 4th and hopefully he can fix it.

I'll let you know what happens.

- Jay
Author:  bigcanoe [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Jay,

Please do!
Author:  RFCRD [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
oldnavy wrote:
RFCRD wrote:
bigcanoe wrote:
When I park my CRD with the front facing down a slight incline (my driveway) for more than 24 hours without starting, sometimes when I start it I get this:

1) It starts fine, I shift in to reverse to back out of driveway.
2) There is very little power/movement when I press the accelerator, I really have to rev it up to get it to move
3) Sometimes when I come to my first stop (stop sign), I get some shuddering and the occasional stall.

Any ideas?

Common. When you park a Liberty facing downhill, the tranny fluid runs to the front of the pan. The oil pick-up tube can only suck a limited amount of fluid before it is sucking air. Thus it won't back up-hill, or if it does it will slip & shudder. DC tech reps are well aware of the problem and was even cautioned against forcing it to back as it will damage the tranny (too bad). When I complained about the same problem, was told to adjust my driving so I wouldn't have to back up-hill. ie... they don't have a fix but getting the filter TSB done helped in my case.
Ours has been parked several times like that and never did the shudder, but it was allowed to idle about a minute before putting it in gear.. I suspect that a improper filter is in use and or the tranny is low on fluid or you are not waiting long enough for fuild to pump up.

This is not my analysis of the problem. Just repeating what I was told, straight from the DC Technical Product Support Rep. This tranny has a general fluid flow issue related to tilting it forward. I was just as suprised to hear of such a design flaw, especially from someone inside DC (and given my propensity to sue them at the time).
Author:  Joe Romas [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
RFCRD wrote:
This is not my analysis of the problem. Just repeating what I was told, straight from the DC Technical Product Support Rep. This tranny has a general fluid flow issue related to tilting it forward. I was just as suprised to hear of such a design flaw, especially from someone inside DC (and given my propensity to sue them at the time).


OK so when your getting up to speed on the freeway and let up when at 55 would enough fluid go to the front of the pan to cause the "bucking" thing :?: Also if the pump is starved for fluid that would explaine why they wear out and cause the TC to take a dump :roll: Sounds like a new pan and pickup is in order :idea:
Author:  TDI4BY [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
OK so when your getting up to speed on the freeway and let up when at 55 would enough fluid go to the front of the pan to cause the "bucking" thing :?: Also if the pump is starved for fluid that would explaine why they wear out and cause the TC to take a dump :roll: Sounds like a new pan and pickup is in order :idea:[/quote]

The 55 thing is EGR, If I run Bio it does not do it at all. Maybe ULSD will fix that problem.
Author:  RFCRD [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
Joe Romas wrote:
RFCRD wrote:
This is not my analysis of the problem. Just repeating what I was told, straight from the DC Technical Product Support Rep. This tranny has a general fluid flow issue related to tilting it forward. I was just as suprised to hear of such a design flaw, especially from someone inside DC (and given my propensity to sue them at the time).


OK so when your getting up to speed on the freeway and let up when at 55 would enough fluid go to the front of the pan to cause the "bucking" thing :?: Also if the pump is starved for fluid that would explaine why they wear out and cause the TC to take a dump :roll: Sounds like a new pan and pickup is in order :idea:

I don't believe the two issues are related. Bucking/stumbling after acceleration is probably NOT a transmission problem, instead an airflow/CAC boost pressure/fuel control related issue.

Purely speculative, but I believe some of the torque converter/lock-up clutch/pump failures may be related to oil starvation from backing uphill (no different than oil starvation from defective filters). I still beleive mine was underfilled from the factory, aggrevating the problem. This would explain why the problem is not as noticable after the filters were changed.

I have also worked around enough heavy vehicles to know better than force this thing to move when the tranny is not responding. In fact, Allison uses a pressure switch to disable/block the throttle until there is safe oil pressures in the reverse clutches. Put one in a bus, you have to make it driver-proof.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weird behavior
TDI4BY wrote:
OK so when your getting up to speed on the freeway and let up when at 55 would enough fluid go to the front of the pan to cause the "bucking" thing :?: Also if the pump is starved for fluid that would explaine why they wear out and cause the TC to take a dump :roll: Sounds like a new pan and pickup is in order :idea:


The 55 thing is EGR, If I run Bio it does not do it at all. Maybe ULSD will fix that problem.[/quote]

Mine did it the day I drove it home with 9 miles on it. I hope it's not that sensitive :shock:
Author:  I<3myCRD [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Ok,... 3 months, 8k miles and two TC's later, it seems as though my tranny is fixed. I finally convinced the Dealer to replace my TC (again!) along w/ the redesigned pump, all the filters and the tranny cooler. It's been in the shop for a total of 38 days for this problem and I have a feeling they just wanted to get rid of me (for a while at least).

- Jay
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