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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:50 pm 
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RF, those figures were hard calculations from tripmeter and fill figures, all city, consitently filling to top of filler after patiently waiting for fuel to stop foaming, so I'm comfortable with the accuracy of the cals. It was all city driving and driven the same way I drive my Jetta when I'm not clearing the vanes on its VNT-15 ( :wink: ) , constant accelerator pressure giving moderate accelerations. Yes, I realize it's a 4300 lb truck (it really is far more solid than it "looks" from the outside, but the EnerCan ratings for the vehicle are 10.9 L/100 city and 8.5 L/100 hwy, so 16.1 city is REALLY off the mark, IMO.

I'm looking into the boost controller now, after I take a look at the EGR and mixing valves. From the smoke I see at night in my review mirror, I'm thinking more and more this is a situation of over-fuelling. Any info on the boost controller problem would be much appreciated!

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:54 pm 
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DnA Diesel wrote:
From the smoke I see at night in my review mirror, I'm thinking more and more this is a situation of over-fuelling. Any info on the boost controller problem would be much appreciated!

Boost controller is all vaccuum operated. Controller is directly behind the air fliter box.

Not sure how much research you have done on the CRD issues but my honeymoon was over by the first oil change. My experience is this product has big problems with oil control. That heavy smoke is a sign of excessive oil in the Charged Air Cooling. I have found much of the problems are interrelated: Wet air filter, oil consumption, turbo passing oil, CCV passing excess vapor, heavy exhaust smoke/sooting, possibly EGR hardware failure, soot fouled sensors, etc...classic death spiral. Have you looked inside your CAC hoses? Are you consuming motor oil in unacceptable quantitles? I tend to lean toward starving for air to be possible source of your problems. Once I took care of the air filter & CCV issue, much of my problems became more manageable.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:14 pm 
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Checked the (crappy) Fram filter and it's okay, no sign of liquid injestion or collapse, Will look at the CAC hose and see what's there. I'm also going out to clean the boost pressure sensor right now so I'll take pics and show you guys how gunked it might be. Sadly we're missing one of the tools that us TDI'ers have regarding the EGR, s/w control.

As Oldnavy recommended to me, different airbox, CCV/EHM/or Provent then some creative work on the EGR bit...

Cheers,
Duey

LOL, was just reminiscing over old times... :lol:

Image

Interestingly, I was comparing the size of my TDI's EGR cooler with the Libby's. Seems the Lib's is relatively smaller for a 2.8L high-strung diesel...and why it probably cokes the EGR valve much more quickly than the TDIs...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:56 am 
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UPDATE: So I went digging to see how gunked up the boost sensor was...apparently so sooted up, the camera wouldn't even focus properly on it. I pulled the sensor, took a few pics, cleaned the sensor with some CFC-free carb cleaner and reinstalled it.

Peering into the sensor hole in the manifold makes me cringe and gives me flashbacks to sitting on my garage floor with my TDI's intake manifold in one hand and a can of carb cleaner and a wire bottle brush in the other... :shock:
Image

Here's the sensor just out of the manifold:
Image

...and here it is after some cleaning:
Image


Now we'll see if the thing can send the proper signals and increase my economy from the abysmal 16 L/100 to at least something closer to the 10.5 L/100 (22 USmpg) in town it should be getting. :?

Cheers,
Duey

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:38 pm 
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Ugly, very ugly. The ECM/PCM depends on the data coming from this dual sensor - both intake air temperature and air pressure are measured with this sensor. The ECM/PCM in turn uses this information to calculate how much fuel to inject into the cylinders - so this sensor has a direct relationship to the power, efficiency, fuel economy and soot output of the engine. The egr design is going to be an ongoing maintenance issue with this and any other egr equipped diesel. This soot will cause degraded sensor performance problems due to carbon buildup in the intake system and anything in its path negatively affected by soot and carbon buildup. It will also affect ring wear and engine longevity.

Your pictures motivated me to check mine. It comes off with a single metric allen bolt (don't remember the size). My last few cold starts have been accompanied by a stumbling and cough never seen before on my CRD.

So I pulled it. Egads!!!! at 26,700 miles it was worse than yours - it was completely, solidly, clogged with dry soot, similar to the soot which is in the exhaust tail pipe. Top, sides, all clogged. This is with a Provent installed, but that won't stop egr soot. I took pictures, but no place to load them. I used a CRC electrically safe intake cleaner product to clean it. Now for the interesting part - the sensor didn't just have a coating on every opening, it was clogged solid, all the way down to the internal yellow sensor plug inside. I cleaned it until it was bright yellow and no sign of any soot.


After cleaning observations - very quick start, fired right up in 50 degrees, no stumbling or multi-second cranking. Engine idles and runs much, much smoother and quieter. Acceleration much better, but best of all, NO MORE CRAZING REVVING when accelerating on the interstate from 60 mph to 80 mph. It stays down in lower gear like it used to. When setting cruise control, no more immediate revving up and down for a few cycles before locking in to a set speed. It now stays in high gear when the accelerator pedal is fully depressed at highway speeds, unless climbing a hill.
Mileage - on highway runs I drive everyday, the EVIC reading jumped from 21-22 to 25 mpg!!! Too soon to see the full effect, but I know the readings on the EVIC from driving that road every day since I've owned the CRD. Will check this tank to see if I get better than the 21 mpg I've been getting since the last flash.

My thinking is with all that soot buildup, the ECM was using stored values, as temperature and boost couldn't possibly be measured correctly with that clogging. I'm deducing that on the temperature, the soot acted as an insulator, keeping the cold readings for too long on warmup, causing overfueling, and kept heat on the sensor once the engine was up to temperature, causing underfueling on longer trips.

Looks like another 5K maintenance item just added to the schedule for the CRD.

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Last edited by Ranger1 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:38 pm 
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Ranger, I too noticed an immediate improvement in starting and general manners. I'll see how this tank goes, but I think I found part of my crappy mileage problem. Like you said, so easy to do, that it might be a monthly thing for me. I may also get a spare sensor depending on their cost. Funny how some little things can screw up an entire system. I get the feeling that missing valid data on these two parameters could very well have put the fuel mapping into some kind of degraded/limp mode.

I'm not overly impressed with the dealer though, I had specifically mentioned poor fuel mileage and asked that all systems associated with fueling be checked. I would have thought this would include a verification of all sensors that provide input to the ECM (as in MAF, IAT, boost, etc...) Yeah! Apparently not... :shock:

Next project will be to look at the EGR and mixing valves...but for now, I'll see how cleaning the boost/temp sensor does.

Cheers,
Duey

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:18 pm 
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You read my mind. I'm ordering another sensor tomorrow. It's easier to swap in a clean one, then clean and store the old one. I did think of one other reason for the excessive soot in the intake area - my first egr failed open at 12K miles and the 2nd failed close at first at 20K. When failed open, excessive soot is passed into the intake. Then 2 glow plugs failed and I drove it that way with lots and lots of smoke and soot for 10 days until STAR cleared the new gp's. All of this adds up. The only way to eliminate this mess is to find a way to shut the egr off.

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SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:35 pm 
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There is an older thread on this subject, and I think the poster disconnected the battery and started the learning process over. I'd search for it, but I'm up to my arse in other alligators at the moment. DnA, thanks for the pics. Ranger, thanks for the supporting info. I love to see stuff reach a logical conclusion and add to the knowledge base. I don't guess this is any real surprise to those of us who have had diesels with EGR before - you know, the whiners. :roll:

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GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:30 pm 
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Kudos to everyone pushing this item, just checked mine at 11,000 and pretty well shut with soot and
this is with the EHM since 300 miles. Cleaned with electrical cleaner, looks like a dual prong type of sensor
and it takes quit a bit of cleaner to begin to get color on one of the wires. Whomever gets the first spare sensor
post the part number and cost. Will post if any symptoms improve with this cleaner.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:

....I don't guess this is any real surprise to those of us who have had diesels with EGR before - you know, the whiners. :roll:


No, Matt, it certainly doesn't. I thought that 6 years and newer base technology would make diesels less problematic...I see DCX really did a job on VM Motori's work of art...the R428 is, engineering wise, a very nice engine...still amazed by its power/displacement ratio, stock it's like a 145hp/215ft-lb ALH TDI engine (which is only 90hp/155ft-lbs).

Luckily, the TDI EGR prepared me well for dealing with this vehicle-engine setup.

Cheers,
Duey

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:23 pm 
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Ripster wrote:
Kudos to everyone pushing this item, just checked mine at 11,000 and pretty well shut with soot and
this is with the EHM since 300 miles. Cleaned with electrical cleaner, looks like a dual prong type of sensor
and it takes quit a bit of cleaner to begin to get color on one of the wires. Whomever gets the first spare sensor
post the part number and cost. Will post if any symptoms improve with this cleaner.


I cleaned the sensor on mine with an old toothbrush, very gently, after soaking it in some of the same spray cleaner. The sensor didn't come clean until I used the bristles on it. Now it's bright yellow, with 2 white wires leading into the base of the yellow sensor.


This issue will also plague the new Grand Cherokee CDI, the MB ML3X0 diesel series as long as they use egr and sensors in the intake plenums.

Now that BlueTec separates NOx into Nitrogen and water, why couldn't they pipe some of the cleaned, nitrogen gas back into the cylinders, after it cleared the particulate filter, to avoid putting this gritty soot back into the intake on the engine?

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SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:37 pm 
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At www.trademotion.com, I found what is labeled as an Intake Temperture Sensor, for $38.80. List is $48.50. This is the description:

Mechanical Catalog - 2005 - Jeep - Liberty
Electrical, Powertrain control, Air intake temp sensor, AIR INTAKE TEMP SENSOR, Liberty, 2.8L

No part number listed on the website, but the Bosch number on my sensor is:

Bosch - 0 281 002 437

part on website here:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/ ... atalogid=1

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:37 pm 
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I was going to change the CRD's oil today anyway, so I had a look at the sensor in mine. Looks about like DnA's. Cleaned it with carb cleaner. Hopefully my mileage will improve. I've always been 1 or 2 MPG short of where I should be. I noticed that one of the prongs for lack of a better term is actually movable on mine. I hope that is normal. It didn't look to be broke.

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:52 pm 
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Quote:
I noticed that one of the prongs for lack of a better term is actually movable on mine.


Same on mine. It looks like that's what that black plastic tab is for - to support the sensor from moving too much.

Does it occur to anyone that what we are looking at is Federal Emissions defective engineering on DC's part? If this sensor clogs up in as little as 11K miles, it is probably failing EPA emissions requirements, due to improper calibration and subsequent mis-fueling. Perhaps we should contact the EPA to investigate whether DC is liable for EPA fines for this. Add in the excessive engine oil from the intake/ccv/turbo seals and we may have a way to use the EPA politicians who caused this emissions mess to force DC to fix it.

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:14 pm 
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I went for a test drive. Cleaning the sensor sure didn't hurt anything. No Evic on mine, so it is way too soon to know about mileage. It does seem to run better. The throttle doesn't seem as twitchy, and the coordination between the trans and engine seems better. Too soon to tell for sure on mine, but I think it helped. It sure didn't hurt.

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:27 am 
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I would like to check my sensor also. Exactly where is it located, and what tools are needed for removal?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:40 am 
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Sorry, I'm borrowing DnA Diesel's pic.

In the foreground is the fuel pressure sensor on the common rail. Behind that is the hole for the boost pressure sensor. The black hole is for the sensor. The threaded hole is for the mounting bolt. This is all on top of the engine on the driver's side almost at the firewall. A 4mm allen wrench is needed for removal of the boost sensor. The worst part is getting the wiring harness out of the way enough to work.

Image

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:33 am 
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4mm allen wrench or socket, you remove the cover and then unclip the two connectors at the
back of the right hand side of the engine when standing in front of it, lift the wiring harness and
don't drop the bolt you remove from the sensor, wiggle it back and forth as you apply pressure
upwards, it has a rubber o-ring.

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GDE EcoTune / Trans tune
PML Differential Cover/Crankcase Mod
Tal & Hadas Grill Guard/TransGo Shift Kit
V-6 AirBox/Lunar Boost & EGT
Lund Cold Weather Grill Insert
OEM updated Filter Head, Cummins Lift Pump


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:13 pm 
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Great info, I think I'll do mine today. How much time should I allow for the project? I have 8300 miles so it will be interesting to see the condition.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:25 pm 
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Skill level low, about 5 minutes in and out, the time is how good you clean it, that will take more time
than getting it out or putting it back in.

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2005 Silver Limited CRD 53,000 miles
GDE EcoTune / Trans tune
PML Differential Cover/Crankcase Mod
Tal & Hadas Grill Guard/TransGo Shift Kit
V-6 AirBox/Lunar Boost & EGT
Lund Cold Weather Grill Insert
OEM updated Filter Head, Cummins Lift Pump


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