Crap... P0401 EGR

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:21 am

P0401 Exhaust gas recirculation (ERG) system – insufficient flow detected Hose leak/blockage, basic setting not carried out (if applicable), wiring, EGR valve, EGR solenoid, ECM.

Well at least it is in the closed position, truck runs great. Guess I will call dealer tomorrow and make an appointment.

alljeep · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:54 am

oldnavy wrote:

P0401 Exhaust gas recirculation (ERG) system – insufficient flow detected Hose leak/blockage, basic setting not carried out (if applicable), wiring, EGR valve, EGR solenoid, ECM.

Well at least it is in the closed position, truck runs great. Guess I will call dealer tomorrow and make an appointment.

I'm beginning to wonder if ANY of us will be immune to this... :roll:

Parky · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:26 am

Well, I just turned 31,000 on the original EGR with no ProVent or similar. We will see what happens.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:19 am

Parky wrote:

Well, I just turned 31,000 on the original EGR with no ProVent or similar. We will see what happens.

27,126 with original EGR but new EGR Flow Control Valve at 25,000.

I looked at another EGR that was pulled from a Liberty CRD with only 3,000. The EGR cavity was fouled up really bad.
We took the EGR solenoid apart from the EGR cooler and the solenoid with the pintle(pin) was moving as normal
The electrically controlled pintle pushes the EGR diaphram in and out which controls the flow of gases. It is mated to the pintle as a flat surface which the pintle pushes against.
It was the EGR diaphram which was very difficult to move even when applying a screw driver to it. What impeded the diaphram from moving was the soot/carbon build up in the EGR cavity.

So you could imagine that the electrically controlled pintle acting as a linear actuator cannot push the EGR diaphram in and out which causes the EGR failure code on the computer.

The fouling issue seems to be caused by fuel, and CCV oily film crap.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:46 am

Maybe with the new ULSD and the EHM or a CCV filter we will be free of these problems. Sure hope so, otherwise after all these years I will be headed back to gassers. My Dodge Magnum with 2 year and 26,xxx miles has been total bullet proof and real pleasure to drive. As a matter of fact I am considering buying/trading for '07 Magnum AWD wagon even though people only reporting 26 to 30 MPG's depending on if V6 or V8 and driving styles.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:57 am

DZL_LOU wrote:

Parky wrote:

Well, I just turned 31,000 on the original EGR with no ProVent or similar. We will see what happens.

27,126 with original EGR but new EGR Flow Control Valve at 25,000.

I looked at another EGR that was pulled from a Liberty CRD with only 3,000. The EGR cavity was fouled up really bad.
We took the EGR solenoid apart from the EGR cooler and the solenoid with the pintle(pin) was moving as normal
The electrically controlled pintle pushes the EGR diaphram in and out which controls the flow of gases. It is mated to the pintle as a flat surface which the pintle pushes against.
It was the EGR diaphram which was very difficult to move even when applying a screw driver to it. What impeded the diaphram from moving was the soot/carbon build up in the EGR cavity.

So you could imagine that the electrically controlled pintle acting as a linear actuator cannot push the EGR diaphram in and out which causes the EGR failure code on the computer.

The fouling issue seems to be caused by fuel, and CCV oily film crap.

Finally, someone who has seen one of these torn apart.
1). This is a diaphram valve?!? (Like a pancake/pressure regulator) What are they using for a diaphram that will take the heat?
2). What style of electrical actuator mechanism are they using?
3) Does this valve appear to be a simple action, entirely "open" or "closed" mechanism?
4). Would it be reasonable for a DIY to clean and reuse this valve when the warranty is done?

What you describe sounds hauntingly close in design to a HVAC hotwater flow control valve I see on large buses. These are notorious for failures. They were so unreliable that the electric ones were superceeded by an electric/pneumatic valve to improve the force of the actuation. They still are a problem and remain a high maintenance item.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:15 am

RFCRD wrote:

Finally, someone who has seen one of these torn apart.
1). This is a diaphram valve?!? (Like a pancake/pressure regulator) What are they using for a diaphram that will take the heat?
2). What style of electrical actuator mechanism are they using?
3) Does this valve appear to be a simple action, entirely "open" or "closed" mechanism?
4). Would it be reasonable for a DIY to clean and reuse this valve when the warranty is done?

What you describe sounds hauntingly close in design to a HVAC hotwater flow control valve I see on large buses. These are notorious for failures. They were so unreliable that the electric ones were superceeded by an electric/pneumatic valve to improve the force of the actuation. They still are a problem and remain a high maintenance item.

I will try to get pictures to send if you are interested. I need to go back to the shop.

1) Yes, it appears to be a diaphram valve. To sheild it from the heat ,the EGR cooler is sandwiched between the EGR cavity with the diaphram and the solenoid with the pintle. The EGR cooler is a coolant jacket with in/out cooler lines.
2) From what I could see, the actuator looked like a proportional controller.
3) Again, from what I could tell it did not look like a binary open/close mechanism but rather could adjust in degrees of operation.
4) Cleaning the cavity looks like no problem, it's just getting to the EGR which is a pain.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:22 am

Send me pictures and I can post them here on the forum for all to see.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:32 am

That's why for now 90% of my driving is with the '87 MB, and the CRD is parked except for weekend errands, mainly to keep the battery charged and everything lubricated.

I'm waiting until I'm sure ULSD is readily available in this area before trying to put many more miles on it, to give it a fair trial and see if this will minimize if not cure the problem. If not, then the lower the miles on the odometer, the higher the trade-in value.

As far as driving the MB, it's not doing badly, averaging 30.5 MPG on my normal commute, and I haven't been gentle with the throttle. I'd probably be using it in preference to the CRD as a daily driver anyway, even without the maintenance issues, for that reason alone. The EGR, recalls, etc, are just additional reasons to leave the CRD parked for now.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:40 am

retmil46 wrote:

That's why for now 90% of my driving is with the '87 MB, and the CRD is parked except for weekend errands, mainly to keep the battery charged and everything lubricated.

I'm waiting until I'm sure ULSD is readily available in this area before trying to put many more miles on it, to give it a fair trial and see if this will minimize if not cure the problem. If not, then the lower the miles on the odometer, the higher the trade-in value.

But here's the rub, why does the get EGR go bad on a CRD with 3,000 miles and we have members who have logged 30,000 miles on the original?
If we could find the mechanism for this failure then using the CRD sparingly would not be a concern for many of us.
I just switched to ULSD with the last two tank fulls as it became available to my area.

Jeger · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:29 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

That's why for now 90% of my driving is with the '87 MB, and the CRD is parked except for weekend errands, mainly to keep the battery charged and everything lubricated.

I'm waiting until I'm sure ULSD is readily available in this area before trying to put many more miles on it, to give it a fair trial and see if this will minimize if not cure the problem. If not, then the lower the miles on the odometer, the higher the trade-in value.

But here's the rub, why does the get EGR go bad on a CRD with 3,000 miles and we have members who have logged 30,000 miles on the original?
If we could find the mechanism for this failure then using the CRD sparingly would not be a concern for many of us.
I just switched to ULSD with the last two tank fulls as it became available to my area.

I was thinking it may have something to do with idle time. It seems that I read somewhere that the EGR is most active at idle? Maybe the folks with the long lasting egr's either dont idle enough to mess it up or perhaps its possible that they idle so much that it heats it up and cleans it out? Just some thoughts I had.

BCool · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:44 pm

I'm nocking on wood again, 34,000 on orig EGR. Mostly high speed highway.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:53 pm

[quote="Jeger']
I was thinking it may have something to do with idle time. It seems that I read somewhere that the EGR is most active at idle? Maybe the folks with the long lasting egr's either dont idle enough to mess it up or perhaps its possible that they idle so much that it heats it up and cleans it out? Just some thoughts I had.[/quote]

Well let's go with that premise, then the 05 CRD owners that are high mileage let's say 25K or above would be driving theirs much more on the highway to rack up those miles.
So if the high milers are then driving highway, then idle is reduced and the engine is operated at longer periods with higher RPM's.
So, In my convoluted logic high milers with mostly higway mileage would experience less ERG failures?

Jeger · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:10 pm

Jeger wrote:

I was thinking it may have something to do with idle time. It seems that I read somewhere that the EGR is most active at idle? Maybe the folks with the long lasting egr's either dont idle enough to mess it up or perhaps its possible that they idle so much that it heats it up and cleans it out? Just some thoughts I had.

DZL-LOU wrote:

Well let's go with that premise, then the 05 CRD owners that are high mileage let's say 25K or above would be driving theirs much more on the highway to rack up those miles.
So if the high milers are then driving highway, then idle is reduced and the engine is operated at longer periods with higher RPM's.
So, In my convoluted logic high milers with mostly higway mileage would experience less ERG failures?

Maybe, Im not quite sure just exactly how the egr functions, but I am thinking that operating conditions have an affect on how clean the egr system is. Its either that lots of highway miles heat the egr enough to clean it out, or lots of highway miles and little idle time = less egr flow, which would also keep it cleaner. OR it could be lots of idle time = lots of egr flow to keep it cleaner as well. Of course the Egr cooler could punch a gigantic hole in most of my thinking here.

So post it up folks

# miles
# egr's replaced
driving conditions..avg speed, idle time miles/day etc.
fuel type, cetane, bio, etc.
anything else you think might affect egr or egr fcv[/quote]

BCool · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm

This is the fifth thread for this but hopefully we'll see a pattern this time

34,000
0 Still on Orig with both
Lots of trips to Utah and California, Steep grades high speed about 50 percent pulling (~1500lbs) at 75-83mph, stop lights and traffic,
work commute 10 miles total
B-20 and B-5 Once with B-99 and of course the occasional dino

I don't really drive that hard, occasionally I step on it, wot? (I never could figure out what that is an abbreviation for) I think the long high speed towing could burn them clean. But what do I know I'm a banker and have few mechanic skills. No provent, no ehm.

Jeger · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:57 pm

BCool wrote:

This is the fifth thread for this but hopefully we'll see a pattern this time

34,000
0 Still on Orig with both
Lots of trips to Utah and California, Steep grades high speed about 50 percent pulling (~1500lbs) at 75-83mph, stop lights and traffic,
work commute 10 miles total
B-20 and B-5 Once with B-99 and of course the occasional dino

I don't really drive that hard, occasionally I step on it, wot? (I never could figure out what that is an abbreviation for) I think the long high speed towing could burn them clean. But what do I know I'm a banker and have few mechanic skills. No provent, no ehm.

This is probably getting to be a sore subject for some, but thanks for contributing, Im sure this wont be the last time it is gone over though. WOT = Wide Open Throttle :wink:

alljeep · **Posted:** Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:02 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Finally, someone who has seen one of these torn apart.
1). This is a diaphram valve?!? (Like a pancake/pressure regulator) What are they using for a diaphram that will take the heat?
2). What style of electrical actuator mechanism are they using?
3) Does this valve appear to be a simple action, entirely "open" or "closed" mechanism?
4). Would it be reasonable for a DIY to clean and reuse this valve when the warranty is done?

What you describe sounds hauntingly close in design to a HVAC hotwater flow control valve I see on large buses. These are notorious for failures. They were so unreliable that the electric ones were superceeded by an electric/pneumatic valve to improve the force of the actuation. They still are a problem and remain a high maintenance item.

I will try to get pictures to send if you are interested. I need to go back to the shop.

1) Yes, it appears to be a diaphram valve. To sheild it from the heat ,the EGR cooler is sandwiched between the EGR cavity with the diaphram and the solenoid with the pintle. The EGR cooler is a coolant jacket with in/out cooler lines.
2) From what I could see, the actuator looked like a proportional controller.
3) Again, from what I could tell it did not look like a binary open/close mechanism but rather could adjust in degrees of operation.
4) Cleaning the cavity looks like no problem, it's just getting to the EGR which is a pain.

all right, where is this shop? do you have your own little diesel crew that I don't know about? I want in the club!

btw... did you ever do the EHM or ProVent?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

24,300 miles - 1st egr at 8K - 2nd egr at 20K miles. 75% Interstate driving, 50 miles per day, 5 miles stop and go. PS in every tank, lots of B20, good quality D2 from major brand stations.

The egr is shut off after 60 seconds of idle when the engine is fully warmed up. If idling quite a bit, it would take conditions that are less than 60 - 75 seconds in duration on average idle times. However, the amount of egr gas cycled would be highest at high speed, light load cruising conditions, as egr is off at WOT, acceleration and idle times over 60 seconds.

Question for DZL_LOU - what keeps the egr cooler from clogging up inside just like the diaphram valve does? Could you see inside the cooler channels?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:00 am

OK, for my numbers:
18,700 miles. Original EGR, drive it like it's stolen, 95% expressway & I don't idle more than absolutely necessary. Run a Provent and anal about keeping the oil cleaned out of the CAC. Try to keep @ b5-b20 mix as much as possible. Never had a CEL.

Jeger, if it throws a CEL on my way home, it's all your fault. :lol:

Cowpie1 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:41 am

oldnavy wrote:

P0401 Exhaust gas recirculation (ERG) system – insufficient flow detected Hose leak/blockage, basic setting not carried out (if applicable), wiring, EGR valve, EGR solenoid, ECM.

Well at least it is in the closed position, truck runs great. Guess I will call dealer tomorrow and make an appointment.

If it is in the closed position, why even bother with getting it worked on? I would view it as pennies from Heaven!

Crap... P0401 EGR

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