FINALLY - First Tank of ULSD

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:25 am

oldnavy wrote:

KenJennings wrote:

I must have been getting really crappy diesel in the early months of 06, because I noticed several times the diesel had a slight yellow-ish/orange tint to it.

Let me remind everyone that color has nothing to do with the type or quality of fuel you are buying.

As long as it isn't RED as this would indicate off-highway or non-taxed diesel

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:29 am

no-blue-screen wrote:

As long as it isn't RED as this would indicate off-highway or non-taxed diesel

You be a nit picker. You any relation to my wife? :wink:

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:44 am

KenJennings wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

BIGPAPACRD wrote:

What color is the ULSD? I just filled up my CRD this past weekend and noticed the fuel was clear which had me take a second look at the pump to make sure the right fuel was going in my baby's stomach.

Should be clear, no different than the old LSD fuel (unless you have been getting dyed/offroad fuel). You would more likely notice less diesel fuel odor.

This is my 3rd tank of the ULSD according to the fuel station where I have been buying recently. Told me they still have the 500ppm/"for non-'07 use" caution stickers on the pumps because it's been too cold to properly clean and resticker the pumps. I have noticed it's been more difficult to get it to blow black smoke.

I must have been getting really crappy diesel in the early months of 06, because I noticed several times the diesel had a slight yellow-ish/orange tint to it.

Probably stained from water contamination somewhere in the storage or handling. When I had OTR buses, made sure we purchased as little fuel in Florida as possible and tried to get that no further south than Orlando due to water contamination. It seemed like the further south, the more fuel problems we had. If it was a winter trip, always ran some PS or FPPF through it before we got anywhere near cold weather. Don't be surprised if you need to change your filter a little more frequently than recommended.

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:18 am

no-blue-screen wrote:

Marlon_JBT wrote:

It has been mandatory since October 15, 2006. Everything since is ULSD. I think the station owners are just idiots and not changing the stickers.

Yeah, that was my understanding of this as well. Aren't they required by law to change the stickers though?

That would be nice. I'm still not getting anything with the LSD sticker... these station owners around here aren't the most honest people.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:29 am

Same thing in this area, haven't seen a single ULSD pump sticker yet. But from the way the beast is running, I'd be willing to bet it is ULSD in everything but name.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:55 am

oldnavy wrote:

no-blue-screen wrote:

As long as it isn't RED as this would indicate off-highway or non-taxed diesel

You be a nit picker. You any relation to my wife? :wink:

don't think so....just having a little fun at your expense

No offense intended.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:33 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Same thing in this area, haven't seen a single ULSD pump sticker yet. But from the way the beast is running, I'd be willing to bet it is ULSD in everything but name.

From what I've read, the station can't resticker/certify the pump until the remaining 500 ppm LSD in their tanks is dilluted to an acceptable sulfur ppm level. I can't recall where I read this but IIRC it's somewhere in the low 20's ppm range with the goal of 15 ppm.

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:32 pm

RFCRD wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

Same thing in this area, haven't seen a single ULSD pump sticker yet. But from the way the beast is running, I'd be willing to bet it is ULSD in everything but name.

From what I've read, the station can't resticker/certify the pump until the remaining 500 ppm LSD in their tanks is dilluted to an acceptable sulfur ppm level. I can't recall where I read this but IIRC it's somewhere in the low 20's ppm range with the goal of 15 ppm.

That, by law, should have been completed on the 15th.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:03 pm

Marlon_JBT wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

Same thing in this area, haven't seen a single ULSD pump sticker yet. But from the way the beast is running, I'd be willing to bet it is ULSD in everything but name.

From what I've read, the station can't resticker/certify the pump until the remaining 500 ppm LSD in their tanks is dilluted to an acceptable sulfur ppm level. I can't recall where I read this but IIRC it's somewhere in the low 20's ppm range with the goal of 15 ppm.

That, by law, should have been completed on the 15th.

Don't believe the law is worded that way. From what I read, the burden was placed on the refiners and suppliers with deadlines from last spring & summer to produce & supply the pure ULSD product. Have yet read anything showing a drop-dead date at the retail level other than the October 15th target date to have the product available to coincide with '07 vehicles arriving on the market. If you happen to own a 2007 diesel vehicle, you can't buy fuel until the pump is certified. Similliar to the mid-70's when both leaded & unleaded fuels were sold side-by-side for a period of time.

Wish I could find the article. Was written in the context that it would take the oil industry almost a full year to make a clean conversion and certify pumps at the retail level. The 6 month push/extension in dates from Katrina was essentially going to kill the 2007 model year for diesels because it could take until early 2007 to get pumps certified.

KenJennings · **Posted:** Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:49 pm

The Liberty is on its second tank of ULSD and when pushed to 2200rpms or higher when accelerating it still sends a choking cloud out its tailpipe. I've noticed the EVIC has jumped +1 mpg for my normal driving in the past few weeks (now reporting a tank average of 24.5). Though I'm pretty sure the real mpg is still the same old, lame 20 mpg.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:12 am

KenJennings wrote:

The Liberty is on its second tank of ULSD and when pushed to 2200rps or higher when accelerating it still sends a choking cloud out its tailpipe. I've noticed the EVIC has jumped +1 mpg for my normal driving in the past few weeks (now reporting a tank average of 24.5). Though I'm pretty sure the real mpg is still the same old, lame 20 mpg.

You brobably have a over active EGR or failing EGR. Was not quite to the 1/4 tank mark today when I filled the CRD and it took 14.6 gallons of slow pumping to fill it after 325 miles of in town driving and some heavy throttle useage my me. Our 22 mpg is over 35% better then our neighbor's 3.7L gasser and I am only paying 10% more for fuel then they are, and they wonder why we bought a diesel.

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

Previously I had been running B11 LSD, since Oct 15 I've ran two tanks of B11 ULSD and my MPG has been horrible. I would normally get around 21-22 MPG on LSD but am now getting 18-19 on ULSD. I know there is a lower energy content with ULSD but dang... I didn't know my MPG would suffer soo much.

I don't know if I should use a lower blend of BD (2% perhaps) or what? But the engine runs much smoother and is more quiet nonetheless...

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:45 pm

RFCRD wrote:

Marlon_JBT wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

Same thing in this area, haven't seen a single ULSD pump sticker yet. But from the way the beast is running, I'd be willing to bet it is ULSD in everything but name.

From what I've read, the station can't resticker/certify the pump until the remaining 500 ppm LSD in their tanks is dilluted to an acceptable sulfur ppm level. I can't recall where I read this but IIRC it's somewhere in the low 20's ppm range with the goal of 15 ppm.

That, by law, should have been completed on the 15th.

Don't believe the law is worded that way. From what I read, the burden was placed on the refiners and suppliers with deadlines from last spring & summer to produce & supply the pure ULSD product. Have yet read anything showing a drop-dead date at the retail level other than the October 15th target date to have the product available to coincide with '07 vehicles arriving on the market. If you happen to own a 2007 diesel vehicle, you can't buy fuel until the pump is certified. Similliar to the mid-70's when both leaded & unleaded fuels were sold side-by-side for a period of time.

Wish I could find the article. Was written in the context that it would take the oil industry almost a full year to make a clean conversion and certify pumps at the retail level. The 6 month push/extension in dates from Katrina was essentially going to kill the 2007 model year for diesels because it could take until early 2007 to get pumps certified.

Sigh.

October 15, 2006 is the deadline for retail. Retail is known as a GAS STATION/FUEL STATION/Service Station, whichever you want to call it. Which means that everything in the underground tank, no matter the sticker *has* to be ULSD. Now if you catch someone with some LSD, I'm pretty sure the EPA won't be too pleased about that and would screw over the station with tons of fines.

Current output for ULSD is about 90%. The only LSD that exists now is used for trains and such... otherwise known as off-highway vehicles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel

However, I will say... stations (at least around here) are very very very shady. I know SEVERAL stations who never affixed the LSD labels in the first place. (Also required by law, except in the state of California)

Quote:

# When is S15 (ULSD) required to be produced and sold?

Introduction of the new 15ppm diesel into different portions of the diesel fuel supply channel will be managed through staggered compliance dates. For North America, there are currently three S15 (ULSD) implementation timelines.

United States (except California)

On-Highway Diesel Fuel
Refinery < 15ppm by June 1, 2006
Terminal < 15ppm by September 1, 2006
Retail < 15ppm by October 15, 2006
Off-Road / Locomotive & Marine Fuel < 500ppm by June 1, 2007

klee · **Posted:** Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:54 am

Marlon_JBT wrote:

It has been mandatory since October 15, 2006. Everything since is ULSD. I think the station owners are just idiots and not changing the stickers.

Been haunting ths forum since I bought my CRD a few months ago and thought you all might be interested in this site, which provides ULSD deadlines for refiners/importers; downstream from refineries; and retail stations. According to this info, it's optional for retailers to carry either LSD or ULSD until Dec. 2010. Retailers who chose to carry ULSD now must comply with EPA regs, but they don't have to carry it at all.

Specifically, the site says this: Although ULSD fuel will be the dominant highway diesel fuel produced, EPA does not require service stations and truck stops to sell ULSD fuel. Therefore, it is possible that ULSD fuel might not be available initially at every service station or truck stop and that a diesel retailer may choose to sell Low Sulfur Diesel fuel instead of ULSD fuel. The industries involved in the transition are doing all they can to minimize potential inconveniences during the conversion to the new diesel fuel.

So, if this info is correct (the list of organizations under "contact us" leads me to believe that it's a legit site), all of those pumps that don't have new stickers on them probably aren't carrying ULSD yet. Because it's not legally required until 2010.

Caveat - this is all moot in California, which requires ULSD.

KenJennings · **Posted:** Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:01 pm

oldnavy wrote:

KenJennings wrote:

The Liberty is on its second tank of ULSD and when pushed to 2200rps or higher when accelerating it still sends a choking cloud out its tailpipe. I've noticed the EVIC has jumped +1 mpg for my normal driving in the past few weeks (now reporting a tank average of 24.5). Though I'm pretty sure the real mpg is still the same old, lame 20 mpg.

You brobably have a over active EGR or failing EGR. Was not quite to the 1/4 tank mark today when I filled the CRD and it took 14.6 gallons of slow pumping to fill it after 325 miles of in town driving and some heavy throttle useage my me. Our 22 mpg is over 35% better then our neighbor's 3.7L gasser and I am only paying 10% more for fuel then they are, and they wonder why we bought a diesel.

I just filled up and confirmed -- EVIC is now telling me I'm getting 26 mpg for my routine, daily drive to and from work , but the real, calculated mpg is just 21. I definitely have to find time to complain to a dealer and see what happens.

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

I don't know if anyone has noticed this or shares the same thing with me on their CRD. It seems as if the more fuel you have in your tank, the slower the fuel gauge needle moves toward empty while the farther down you go its more hurried to get to E.

I drive the exact same route on a daily basis to and from work and drive very little otherwise. This has been happening since day one, I don't know if its a matter of fact or simply an anomoly? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:28 am

Hero wrote:

I don't know if anyone has noticed this or shares the same thing with me on their CRD. It seems as if the more fuel you have in your tank, the slower the fuel gauge needle moves toward empty while the farther down you go its more hurried to get to E.

I drive the exact same route on a daily basis to and from work and drive very little otherwise. This has been happening since day one, I don't know if its a matter of fact or simply an anomoly? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

You will find the same is true with time as you get older. :shock:

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:56 am

Hero wrote:

I don't know if anyone has noticed this or shares the same thing with me on their CRD. It seems as if the more fuel you have in your tank, the slower the fuel gauge needle moves toward empty while the farther down you go its more hurried to get to E.

I drive the exact same route on a daily basis to and from work and drive very little otherwise. This has been happening since day one, I don't know if its a matter of fact or simply an anomoly? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

You are not alone, I see this on every tank. The first 1/2 tank goes @ 300 miles. Can get @ another 150 miles to between 1/4 and E (or when the low fuel light comes on). Very predictable, which is what really counts.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:44 pm

Hero wrote:

I don't know if anyone has noticed this or shares the same thing with me on their CRD. It seems as if the more fuel you have in your tank, the slower the fuel gauge needle moves toward empty while the farther down you go its more hurried to get to E.

I drive the exact same route on a daily basis to and from work and drive very little otherwise. This has been happening since day one, I don't know if its a matter of fact or simply an anomoly? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

This has been true with just about every vehicle I have ever owned. Especially with the various GM cars that I have owned.

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:40 pm

Meh. Anyway, all Libertys are like that... when it's full, the gauge is lazy, by the time you really need fuel, it loves to hurry down to "E". I find the gauge is most accurate at 1/4 and 1/2 tank.

FINALLY - First Tank of ULSD

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