F37 before and after comments...

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:52 pm

DnA Diesel wrote:

I would love to see an old and new torque convert compared for stall speeds. I first though we'd been upped by a few hundred rpm, maybe 200-300. I actually think it's much more, based on where the shifts are happening, maybe 500-600. This is especially noticeable when you see the converter lock-up, there appears to be a lot more slippage in 5th prior to the lock up, I see a little over 2000-2050 or so drop to 1700 as soon as the converter locks up. This tells me that there is 21% slippage [(2050-1700)/1700 x 100%] at the converter just before lock-up. This seems rediculous...the extra heat as well as wasted fuel, etc... is surely occuring with this new set-up. This also tells me that this is a crappy, low-quality, "loose" converter, to be having that much slippage.

Now some folks will tell me, the "diesel's torque is doing that." That's BS, torque is torque...a ft-lb is a ft-lb. In contrast, I have a TurboAction 'tight' 10" converter sitting behind a 475hp big-block 440 in my Charger and even though it's design stall speed is 3800 rpm (to get quickly to the torque peak of 520 ft-lbs at 3900rpm[dyno]). It's design and build quality ($500+, furnace brazed, needle-bearing, HV pump) result in an engine speed of 2100 rpm at 60 mph vice theortical (by gearing/tire size) 1975-1980 rpm...that's only 6.3% slippage at 2100 rpm for a converter stall-rated at 3800. When I hit the gas at 60 mph, the engine flashes to 3800-ish and the fun begins, but otherwise, the tight converter wastes very little energy and causes little excess heat to build up through slippage.

That's why I know that the TC behind the CRD is a low quality, 'loose' coverter. I suspect that even with the flash and torque reduction, the manners of the Libby would be much nicer with a high-qulity low-stall converter. Clearly DCX upped the converter stall big time as part of their plan to remedy what they thought was a transmission deficiency. If it was a problem, I'd rather have an A-518 or 48RE tranny, but I suspect a new pump HV pump would have worked well with the original converter in the 545RFE.

I'm beginning to regret having the F37 done, although I am willing to go $500 out of pocket to put something like an APS 1500-rpm converter into the tranny with a high-quality, high-volume pump, if DCX would just say, OK, we'll keep the warranty stuff going since you put out for the components that are really causing the problem.

You and me both brother, except I'm willing to take it to the point of telling DC what to do with their warranty if they raise a squawk.

Sooner or later that warranty is going to run out, and we'll be paying out of pocket for any fixes to these beasts. I want to know NOW if it's possible to make this tranny bulletproof and the vehicle run properly, while it's still new enough to get some kind of decent trade-in if it looks to be a losing proposition, vice prolonging the agony with constant recalls until the warranty runs out and the vehicle is so old/has so many miles and a reputation as a constant problem child that it would basically be worthless as far as trade-in equity.

On the other hand, if with the proper aftermarket gear/fixes, we can show that this engine and vehicle really shines when set up properly, it could become a sought-after item by Jeep and diesel enthusiasts, with a higher resale value down the road, and that would certainly benefit all the current owners.

I asked my local tranny shop guru to check and see what info he could come up with on the stock converters, both pre and post F37, from his industry contacts. I've already heard from one source that the stall speed on the stock converter for a V6 gasser Liberty is 2400 rpm.

I'm thinking about starting another thread, where we can coordinate all our info on aftermarket fixes to the tranny. I know I've come up with 4 or 5 companies so far that offer possible candidates for an aftermarket TC. We'd also include info anyone comes up with in regards to doing a manual tranny conversio as well. I've also come across 2 companies that offer an aftermarket user-programmable TCM that would work with our tranny, so you could completely do away with the F37 reflash.

AZScout · **Posted:** Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:55 pm

That is what I want...and a new TQ. Please keep us posted on the aftermarket TCM's. Thanks!

cerich · **Posted:** Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:24 am

I was planning to wait a while to get the F37 recall done. However a busted power windoew regulator (warranty) and my wife changed my mind(she hated the jerking in the CRD when she rode with me, she never drives it as we have 4 cars for the 2 of us and she like sthe other 3 more...)

Anyhow it took 4 days, no biggie to me as the tranny guy at the dealer is considered on the best around, they do lots of tranny work for other dealers. I was asked to pick the CRD up Friday at the end of the day, I got there at 4:30, they finished it at 7PM... just me and the tranny guy, the service writer(who is jealous of my CRD, offered to trade his 06 wrangler for it..) hanging around.

Bottom line, no shakes any more and noticeably MORE power than before (and I have had all the flashes done in the past). I was actually not expecting this....
In town it is revving a little higher before shifting, maybe 200rpm yet on the highway at 75mph it is sitting at 2100 rpm where as before it would sit at 2300.

I'm headed out the door later today for a 5 day road thrip that ill be ~2000miles, it'll be a good test for it I'm sure.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:06 pm

It seems the end results from F37 are all over the map, some showing an improvement, some no change, and some worse off than before.

I'm thinking we could primarily chalk this up to the usual culprit - the experience and attitude of the personnel in the service dept.

Laids · **Posted:** Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:00 pm

I have been reading all the posts on the F37 recall to see what the impressions are before and after. Mitchels post sums it up , some good, some bad, some the same. On one hand my CRD is running fine although the fuel mileage compared to others on this forum could be better , or at least closer to the numbers DC claimed. If the fuel mileage is improved , I can live with a slight reduction in performance. If it stays the same plus a noticable loss of power and driving characteristics, no thanks.
I just got back from the dealer to order the parts etc. and when asked about how many they have done," yours will be the first". The parts guy also added after he read the sheet "the tech won't be to happy he only get's paid for 5 hours for this job". My confidence in the outcome is not high. Will keep you posted.

Chris L.

Hair_MD · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:07 am

Chris,

What dealer in Toronto are you going to?

I had mine done in Waterloo. The Tech seemed to know what he was talking about. Had it done at Bustards Chrysler. I did not buy my CRD from them, but they have treated me well and seem to know more then most other dealers i have spoke with.

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am

retmil46 wrote:

I'm thinking we could primarily chalk this up to the usual culprit - the experience and attitude of the personnel in the service dept.

I'll respectfully disagree with you on that call.

I just honestly think DC doesn't know what to do....all the dealership is doing is performing the F37 with a bundle of DC shipped & supplied parts and some computer re-flashing. My dealer has been great, bent over backwards to help, and are now helping me with a DC buy-back. I feel my dealer has went well beyond what most dealers would have done in my particular situation.

Greg

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:38 am

What do they do with a buyback anyway? Do they keep messing with it till they fix it? Do they sell it wholesale as is? Do they call in a specialist? Do they roll it on its top and plant flowers in the wheelwells? I was just wondering.

MooseMeat · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:59 am

Had the F37 done about 2 weeks ago. So far the shudder is gone but I have noticed a loss in power & acceleration when trying to blend with traffic. Shifting points seam to be the same.

My fuel mileage seams to be a lot better, the wife drove it the first week and didn’t write down how many gallons she put in it so I don’t have a figure yet but I have use a lot less fuel so far this week. Put over 150 miles on it and it’s just under the Full mark.

I love driving the CRD but am far from being satisfied with it.

Laids · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:10 pm

Hair_, I bought the CRD at Eastway, they are convenient I usually ask for a specific mechanic to do any work on it whether that always happens is another matter. They have been accomadating and proffesional but pretty disintereasted in my concerns.

Chris

tshikle · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:34 am

Had the F37 and the ball joint recalls done at the same time.
I can't tell much difference with the performance of my libby. Acceleration and shift points I think are about the same. Tranny shifts smoother. I'm pleased so far.
Bought the LIBBY In Little Rock about 100 miles away and did not want to keep having to go that far for service. Had a dealer about 40 miles away tell me to not bring it to them, they would not work on it because they were a small dealer and had no one certified. The dealer I used is in a town about 30 miles away, The service manager told me that his diesel tech and himself were both certified on the CRD Libby, But had not worked on one. He did not think the dealership had even sold one. After I thought about for awhile I did feel better just because he was honest with me. The dealership in my town had a small problem of where did I missplace $250,000 worth of cars and closed it doors.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:42 am

After talking to a couple of aftermarket TC/tranny companies, and reading thru some of the summaries of how the F37 recall turned out, I'm beginning to wonder if the key to a successful completion of the recall is replacement of the pump and seals, in addition to the TC.

At least one of the TC companies I talked to said one of the main problems with this tranny is that the seals between the pump and TC would harden and start leaking, causing a reduction in line pressure, and a resulting chain of events that resulted in TC failure. That would seem to be supported by the reports of some of the trannys having to be reworked and the pumps replaced as well, because the new TC didn't mate to the old seals, resulting in leaks and shuddering, when F37 was initially performed.

The gentleman I talked with, at Performance Automotive and Transmission Center (PATC), said flat out that just replacing the TC and detuning the engine was "b###s###", that the problem was with the seals hardening, and you needed to replace the pump and seals as well to take care of the problem.

That might account for the seeming scattershot of results. Those that have had the full swapout - TC, pump, seals, cooler - having good results - little or no change in vehicle performance, in some an improvement, and/or improvement in tranny behavior. And those who only received the TC swapout getting less than satisfactory results.

For those of you who have had F37 done already, does this pump/no pump dividing line in general explain the differing results?

Spowers · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:55 am

I think your onto somthing here, as I have not had the shutter problem. Thus, no tranny issue to fix? Its still going after 45K - So, I am not planning on doing anything unitl it breaks.

MooseMeat · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:05 pm

Thats what they did to mine swaped out the TC, pump, seals, cooler, and some other things that I can't recall. They had it for 3 days.

pnorton · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:57 pm

I have a cousin who works for Ford (specifically diesels). He mentioned that some times the customer satisfaction recalls have time limits???? I haven't heard either way with this one but I'll get it done.

Spowers wrote:

I think your onto somthing here, as I have not had the shutter problem. Thus, no tranny issue to fix? Its still going after 45K - So, I am not planning on doing anything unitl it breaks.

cerich · **Posted:** Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:59 pm

that is why they call it a cust. satisfaction vs. a real recall. Real recall=lifetime coverage, cust. satisfaction=while in warranty only. That is why we only get the front pump under certain circumastances that don't make sense. If the TC that the tech is about to replace is bad also replave the front pump, if the TC the tech is about to replace isn't really bad just replace the TC. They are betting the CRD's that had completly trashed TC's had really bad fow from the front pump, so just changing the TC without doing the front pump will mean another repair on DC\'s dime, if the TC is still fairly good then they are betting the front pump on those CRD's had better flow so just change the TC because they KNOW that the TC won't last thru the warranty period with the old style pump. Throw in the new TCM programming and it "should" survive now until the warranty is over.

They are thinking the next needed TC is on us!

06blueCRD · **Posted:** Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:26 pm

Have had mine back for 200 miles and two weeks. I think the mushy-shift I feel between the last two gears is a s/w program torque reduction at the shift points to save the precious new TC for DC. Now, at only 2K miles (mine was bought in November but had been a late October 05 build) on my clock I feel like my CRD has been castrated. The drive is mushy-shift and very "soft". Not what I bought at all. Feels like my wife's E300.

Well I'm working with my dealer and DC. DC says the F37 flash is one-way and can't be undone. My dealer is working to see if anything else can be done to make this X4 Jeep owner happy. My dealer is 5 Star and they have leaked to me that several other CRD owners in Dallas with the F37 are complaining loudly. I think DC (who has now slipped to #4 in sales) does not want the car-capitol of Texas to be the CRD-complaint capitol. I'll see.

I love the rest of my CRD's virtues. I think it is great riding. My mileage could be a little better but this thing is still breaking in. If you can delay or forget the F37 do so. If not, get ready for a different ride and shifting car - not really a loss of power but more of a domesticated output - sophisticated and tamed would be my best description. Unless DC fixes my induced problem (and I'm still hopeful), I'll switch to another brand next round. Way to go DC - no wonder Toyota ran you over.

Mike

cerich · **Posted:** Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:34 am

Just did a road trip with 2300 miles immediatly following the F37. It ran MUCH better, less hunting and less "jolting" at 55-60mph. Strangly enough at ~650 miles after recall the CRD exibited ALL the pre recall problems again. This continued for approx 300 miles, then it just went back to exactly what I experienced immediatly post recall and stayed there with no further issues.
It may have been a fuel issue that caused the 300 mile return of bad behaviour, it was ULSD so I also experienced a milage drop from 25mpg (average spped of 75-80mph) down to a record low for my CRD of 19mpg, when the CRD began to behave again my milage also returned.

I have no idea if this beast is cured long term, I do know howver I'm glad to have an extended 100K warranty...

MooseMeat · **Posted:** Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:36 am

I'm experiencing the same thing as "cerich" runs great for a while then jerky at all speeds 40 to 75, and a noticeable difference in MPG when it starts running like that. I never have a warm fuzzy feeling when I take in on a trip, feel like it’s not going to make it.

“Liberty CRD it’s made of Tin You Drive it Out and Tow It In”

I doubt I will own this vehicle much longer.

I complained to my salesman “friend” who sold me this Jeep he says I can get you a real good deal on another Liberty or Commander I asked him if he thought I was stupid this will be my last Jeep or any Chrysler product.

boxhead · **Joined:** Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:14 pm **Posts:** 186

I was told today that would look at mine, but if it needed the pump they were on back order for 2 months.........................

F37 before and after comments...

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