LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

Aftermarket CRD TC/Tranny/TCM Info
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16289		 Page 1 of 20
Author:  retmil46 [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  Aftermarket CRD TC/Tranny/TCM Info
Given the interest of many, including myself, in putting an end to this ongoing cycle of TSB's/Recalls/failures, and finding a permanent fix that will give us a reliable tranny while still maintaining something akin to the power/performance we paid for, I propose we use this thread to combine the info we've acquired regarding possible aftermarket solutions.

This should include all possible options, including any info on conversion to a manual tranny, regardless of what effect DC may claim it would have warranty-wise.

I know many people are concerned about maintaining the warranty, to prevent putting themselves in possible financial distress over vehicle repairs. That said, the intent of this thread is not to rake over the legal consequences of any particular course of action. By laying ALL POSSIBLE OPTIONS on the table, hopefully we can come up with several routes to making this tranny reliable, satisfying both those who are concerned with maintaining their warranty, those willing to throw caution to the winds and go all out, and those somewhere in between.

And there's the distinct possibility that we could end up making this a far better vehicle, both in performance and reliability, than it was to begin with. If we find a successful solution that ends up making this a sought-after vehicle in the eyes of Jeep and diesel enthusiasts, such that down the road it's resale value is higher that it would have been otherwise, I dare say everyone would benefit from that.

Now, on to possible solutions -

Inadvertently, DC may have done us a favor by placing the 545RFE tranny behind the Hemi engines in Dodge pickups. I found at least 4 aftermarket companies on line that have come out with TC's specifically for the 545RFE/Hemi combination. Granted, none of these may work behind our diesel. But the fact that these companies already have an aftermarket TC for the 545 is a good start. If we have to go the custom build route, hopefully it would be cheaper to modify an existing TC than to have to start from scratch.

It's been quoted that the software reflash going along with the F37 recall affects the TCM - that it is the TCM commanding the ECM to reduce engine torque to protect the tranny, and there's been discussion about how undo the flash or have someone such as InMotion restore the preflash programming.

There may be another option. I found two companies, Powertrain Control Solutions and TCI Automotive, that now offer user-programmable controllers for electronic trannys - in effect, an aftermarket TCM. Both companies websites say their controllers are compatible with the 545RFE. An added feature of these controllers is something several people have asked for - the ability to set up a paddle or button shift arrangement, such that you can manually shift or select which gear the tranny is in. They can be programmed using a Windows-based laptop, and I'd imagine that a local tranny or speed shop that was competent in dealing with electronic trannys would be able to assist in programming.

Two companies may already have TC's that would be a drop-in replacement. One has already been mentioned in one thread, Performance Automotive and Transmission Center (PATC), www.partshp.com and www.transmissionsone.com . They actually offer an entire performance rebuilt 545 tranny, Transgo shift kits, and an aftermarket TC with an available stall speed down to 1500 rpm. The question on their TC is whether or not they would consider it beefy enough to handle the low end torque of our diesel, and what they would consider to be a good stall speed for our application.

Another is Hughes Performance, www.hughesperformance.com . They actually have several torque converters in their XTM/XFM line that fit a 545RFE. One is the Fuel Miser, 17LFUEL, with a stall speed of 1000 to 1200 rpm. Notes say that it is designed to decrease slippage by as much as 25 to 30 percent to increase fuel economy, that it can increase fuel economy by as much as 2 to 4 mpg depending on application, and that it is heavy duty and suitable for use behind 400 cubic inch and larger gas engines and DIESEL APPLICATIONS. :)

There are two other Hughes TC's that may be useable. Towmaster, 17LTOW, with a stall speed of 1800 to 2000 rpm. And the Heavy Duty Towing, 17LXTM, no stall speed listed.

There is another Hughes TC that may or may not work with our tranny. Under Billet Converters, the 15BLXFM, listed by Hughes as being for 46/47/48RE trannies and heavily modified Dodge Cummins, with a triple disc lockup clutch and capable of handling 1000 ft/lbs. :shock: The Summit Racing website, which Hughes is linked to, claims that this monster will also work with a 45RFE tranny. But I'd rather confirm this with Hughes before I plunked down money for it, especially considering it costs nearly $1400, compared to $400 to $500 for most other TC's. That beast would probably weigh more than the tranny itself, but you'd end up breaking the engine before you broke that honker of a TC. :wink:

There are two other companies, IPT Transmissions and APS Precision MFG, that state on their websites that they will do a custom TC for you. At present the only thing they offer for the 545RFE is a TC for going behind a Hemi gas engine in a Dodge pickup, same with TCI Automotive.

I actually called TCI back on Friday, to try and find out if their 545/Hemi TC might be useable or could be modified. But before I could ask about this specific TC, I mentioned the word "diesel", and their tech cut me off and said "We don't have anything that would work with a diesel", and from his tone I gathered he considered it a waste of time discussing the possibility. Apparently they're strictly gasser performance.
Author:  crdmike [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Nice work, I'm in!
Author:  Drewd [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Don't know if these folks can help but they sell TC's with various stall speeds.

http://www.transmissionsone.com/45rfe_p ... om_pat.htm
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:19 am ]
Post subject: 
In general, a good diesel specific single clutch TC will handle around 400 pounds of torque. Multiple clutch setups will handle much higher. So, a "simple" single clutch TC with the proper strength and stall speed should be fine for our application. With modules or chips we are probably looking at 340 pounds of torque at the high end for most CRD's.
Author:  Weegie5 [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Here is a place I found that does custom TCs, and they aren't adverse to diesels: http://www.specriteconverters.com/diesel_tow_series.asp.
Author:  retmil46 [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
For FYI and other potential uses, I dug out my old copy of Diesel World that had the article on adding BD's X Power module to an '05 CRD.

Article says it was tested on BD Power's Mustang chassis dyno, first in stock condition, results are at the rear wheels.

Results posted were 129.3 bhp at 3350 rpm, and 248.5 ft/lbs at 2650 rpm.

Those are the peaks however, and the accompanying graph gives a little more info.

Graph only starts registering at 1750 rpm. At that point, hp looks to be around only 50, and torque around 140 ft/lbs. At 2025 rpm, hp has come up to around 80, and torque is 200 ft/lbs.

Torque shows a rapid increase, 140/1750 rpm, 200/2025 rpm, 225/approx 2100 rpm. After this it levels off and shows a gradual increase up to 248/2650 rpm.

HP shows a more gradual increase. 50/1750 rpm, 80/2025 rpm, around 90 to 95 at 2100 rpm where torque starts to level off, 100/2300 rpm, and around 125 at 2650 rpm where torque peaks.

Any input on what this says about the stock TC, and what we should look for in a replacement?

Haven't called anyone yet, but at first glance I'm leaning towards Huges Fuel Miser TC. If they give the OK to sticking it behind our diesel, having a solidly built TC along with better efficiency and fuel mileage does appeal to me.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Huh? September 2006 issue of Diesel Power installed the DieselPower Module ( www.dieseltuning.com ) and the Dr. Performance Module ( www.drperformance.com ) with results as follows on a Mustang 100 chassis dyno:

Completely stock: 18.8sec/73.1 1/4 mile

Stock w/ Dynomax Exhaust 159 rear wheel hp and 268 lb-ft torque
*torque curve fell off quickly after 2000 rpm...4-5 hp increase over stock*
*18.5sec/74.1 1/4 mile

DieselPower CR-S yielded 183.3 rw hp and 306.6 lb-ft torque
*flattened out torque curve and brought on the power faster and longer*
*16.9sec/81.6 1/4 mile

Predator by Dr. Performance 183.9 rw hp and 310.1 lb-ft torque
*slightly fatter and stonger torque curve*
*17.1sec/82.3 1/4 mile
Author:  retmil46 [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Any number of variables could account for the differences in peak numbers between the two dynos - the operators, type of dyno, differences between vehicles, even altitude and temperature. Also, one vehicle was apparently flat stock, the other had a dynomax exhaust.

And with the myriad of reflashes, each vehicle could have been running a different set of software. :roll:

I think what's important for what we're contemplating, is WHERE, WHEN, and HOW FAST the majority of the HP and torque came into play. In other words, we need to look at the graphs and the entire curve in selecting a proper TC for this beast.

From looking at the graph in Diesel World, the majority of our torque is coming in big time between 1500 and 2000 rpm.
Author:  KJMedic [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Anyone know where a chassis dino is around the peidmont North Carolina area is?
Author:  rs4mtnitro [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
In my experience the current T/Q only has a problem when maintaining speed. Under acceleration it does fine. We need to find out what the pump pressure is at the time it acts up and have some one build us a T/C that will hold up at that rpm with that pressure.
Author:  retmil46 [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:33 am ]
Post subject: 
I contacted Hughes Performance on their Tech phone number and talked to a rep named Mark.

They were quite diesel-friendly. Basic attitude was, "You tell us what you want it designed for - economy, towing, performance, strip - we'll set it up for you".

I described to him what was going on with the F37 recall. He seemed to well understand what we were looking at, and even made the same comment that had been made here on another thread - that Dodge had yet to come out with a stock TC that could stand up behind a diesel.

Discussing a 545RFE TC for our application, since we were looking at 2005 and newer, there weren't that many 545 Tc cores available, and he said we would probably be looking at an "R and R" - remove and rebuild. In other words, remove the TC from the vehicle and ship it to them to be stripped down and completely rebuilt to our specs.

From his description, when it came to a Dodge/Chrysler TC, when they got a core in it got stripped down to the shell and EVERYTHING replaced - in their view the components used in a stock Dodge/Chrysler TC were just too light for any heavy duty application.

For doing a rebuild for a 545 diesel version of their Fuel Miser TC, he said would require around 3 days of shop work, and would run approximately $350.

Mark said that if I had any further questions or needed any more info to help in making a decision to feel free to call him back.

I'll see if I can contact one or two more of the shops we've found in the morning.
Author:  retmil46 [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:49 am ]
Post subject: 
rs4mtnitro wrote:
In my experience the current T/Q only has a problem when maintaining speed. Under acceleration it does fine. We need to find out what the pump pressure is at the time it acts up and have some one build us a T/C that will hold up at that rpm with that pressure.


Anyone have an idea if the upgraded pump listed in the recall has a higher volume and/or pressure than the current one? Or if the Transgo shift kits do anything for increasing line pressure?

If so, we might want to look at adding both the new pump and the Transgo shift kit along with the rebuilt TC.

This could also be due to the amount of slippage in the current TC. DnA Diesel mentioned in another thread that the replacement TC appeared to be very "loose", over 20% slip by his calculations (ie, less than 80% efficient). It could be that a tighter more efficient TC might help cure this.
Author:  Endurance [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I think so too. If we just get the TC rebuilt, without replacing or rebuilding the pump, the TC will probably fail again. If we could get the Shiftkit, new TC, and a new pump at the same time we should be good to go.
Author:  RFCRD [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:11 am ]
Post subject: 
retmil46 wrote:
This could also be due to the amount of slippage in the current TC. DnA Diesel mentioned in another thread that the replacement TC appeared to be very "loose", over 20% slip by his calculations (ie, less than 80% efficient). It could be that a tighter more efficient TC might help cure this.

I sure a better TC would improve things however the stall speed is essentially over-ridden by the lock-up clutch. So to make a lower stall speed TC work, you would also have to rewrite the computer logic controlling the lock-up clutch. Most likely the extra loosness that is felt is a programming change in the lock-up clutch control logic.
Author:  CATCRD [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
TC lockup only occurs in gears 4 and 5, so a better unit with a lower stall would definitely help in the first three gears.
Author:  RFCRD [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
CATCRD wrote:
TC lockup only occurs in gears 4 and 5, so a better unit with a lower stall would definitely help in the first three gears.

It can lock as low as 3rd gear depending on when you stop accelerating hard. The 3rd gear lock-up is the 35mph lurch under light or no acceleration.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with RFCRD on the lockup part. However, a lower stall speed and lower slip impeller may help us in the acceleration department. Depending on how the software is handling the "reduction in engine torque", i.e. if it's across the board and not just at shift points, a tighter TC may help us get more of what's left to the wheels.

I'm going out on a limb with this guess, but it might be possible that as far as acceleration that it could in good part make up for the torque reduction.

Also, with my normal commute, I'm not going to be in lockup anywhere near 100% of the time, especially around town. If the TC can give me even slightly better fuel mileage non-lockup as an added benefit, I'm willing to give it a try.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I contacted another of the aftermarket companies today. Performance Automotive and Transmission Center (PATC), www.transmissionsone.com and www.partshp.com . These are the gents mentioned quite a while back, with the 1500 rpm stall converter, and also offer the RAM45 tranny, a reworked 45/545RFE, with heavy duty clutch bands, Transgo shift kit, deep sump pan, and the aforementioned heavy duty converter.

I talked with Don, one of their techs. He said their converter should quite readily handle the torque from our engine. But he did express the feeling that for our max torque rating of 1800 rpm, a 1500 rpm stall converter was probably a little on the high side, and that the stall rating should be dropped at least 200 rpm or more lower.

He stated that the usual rule of thumb on stall speed was that, for better performance than stock, you raised the stall speed for a gas engine, and lowered it for a diesel engine.

Don said that he wouldn't make a recommendation as to a final stall speed without first determining what the stall speed of the stock TC was. His method for a quick and dirty determination of brake stall was to take the vehicle out and stand on the brakes, then floor the accelerator for 2 seconds and see what RPM pegged at.

Think I'll wait and see if my tranny guy can come up with the stall speed before trying this method.

He said that the main reason TC's ended up failing in 45/545RFE trannys was that the seals between the pump and TC would harden and start leaking, reducing line pressure to the TC, and starting a chain of events that ended in TC failure.

I told him that the basic F37 recall involved just a TC swapout and reprogramming the engine to reduce torque. He had one word to describe this - "b###s###!". He said that torque had nothing to do with it, that unless they replaced the pump and seals as well it wouldn't fix anything, and that eventually you'd end up with another failed TC.

I contacted the owner of my local tranny shop as well. He'd been swamped with work and hadn't had the chance to make any inquiries yet. He stated that he was going to try doing so this afternoon or in the morning, and asked me to give him a call back Wednesday afternoon.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I told him that the basic F37 recall involved just a TC swapout and reprogramming the engine to reduce torque. He had one word to describe this - "b###s###!". He said that torque had nothing to do with it, that unless they replaced the pump and seals as well it wouldn't fix anything, and that eventually you'd end up with another failed TC.


That would explain why my new TC, replaced at 18K miles last summer, is starting to show signs of failure at 26K. No pump was replaced. It is now intermittently starting to "stick" when coming to a stop at intersections - not disengaging.

That's exactly happened when my first TC failed.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm still working my way down the list of companies we've came up with, and waiting on info back from my tranny shop. I also need to call my purchasing dealership to see what the deal is on the ball joint and F37 recall. But so far, I'm stating to come up with a couple tenative plans.

Mine still needs the ball joint recall done. That's a safety item, and needs to be done one way or another, whether a set of Moog's or letting the dealer do it.

Also, the last reflash they did on mine at the end of June when the EGR and glow plugs were replaced was one of the fubars that won't allow the onboard computers to talk to an OBDII scanner. Regardless of my feelings about the "torque reduction", this is something that could come back to bite me in the arsh, and I should probably let them go ahead and do the F37 reflash, if for no other reason so that the computers can properly communicate with diagnostic equipment. Also, it will show up on DC's records that I've had F37 done, and they won't try pulling any funky BS with the warranty (for whatever good it is).

Basically, I'm looking at letting the dealer do the ball joint and basic F37 recall (TC swap and reprogram), then it goes to the tranny shop for aftermarket surgery.

I'll probably only get the basic F37, haven't had any problems with the tranny in 11K miles since having my shop perform the filter TSB and check everything out. Up side is, I'd at least have a brand new TC to send off and get rebuilt to my specs.

Main question is, if they have the parts available, whether or not to have the upgraded pump and cooler installed by the dealer (probably have to pay shop rate), or simply buy the parts and let my shop change them out while sending the TC off to be rebuilt. Would probably be cheaper as far as labor costs to let my shop do it, but right now I don't know if he has the equipment to handle the A/C system pumpdown that would be required for the cooler replacement.
Page 1 of 20 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/