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Send ALL These Complaints to Daimlier Chrysler.....
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Author:  truckbouy2 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Send ALL These Complaints to Daimlier Chrysler.....
I read empty threats and constant whining on a wonderful informational site designed for good idea exchange on a most unique vehicle.
The Liberty CRD was a DC experiment to see if us, whining, flabby butt Americans would want a small diesel commuter that could out perform ANY
gas engine full size pick-up and not even break a sweat. AND it was an success. A big success. And it caught DC with their pants down.
They thought they'd sell a few like the Viper (take a Viper in sometime for service and watch the Techs turn white and break a sweat).
Well the CRD sold out in no time. DC and their Dealer organization wasn't prepared for the success. Then to make matters worse, the EPA forces
DC to add these cute little performance killers like the CCV, EGR which I might add are not designed to run on our dirty diesel fuel and then demands MORE
performance robbers in the year 2007. Thus the knife in the heart of the Liberty CRD. And DC as usual, as with darn near all biggies, they leave their Dealers twisting in the wind. But all of us CRD owners have the ability to help the dealers and also ourselves by making DC aware of the issues we're having with extreme zeal. Send complaints to DC.....Send complaints to DC.... NOBODY at DC is reading this site. Make Dr. Z see us CRD owner issues in his sleep.
Look... We own an obsolete experimental vehicle... You know, like a fine Street-Rod, or an old Road Runner. Put on your workin' clothes and get out there
and get creative. Think about the troubles and come up with some solutions. Quit looking for DC to bail us out and change our whinny diapers. We bought the Liberty CRD because we like unique performance vehicles. If you just can't take it, sell it, take the hit and buy a Toyota Hybrid. Why would you want to hold on to something that causes you such distress.
Happy Motoring CRD'ers :wink:
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:12 am ]
Post subject: 
I am all for sending concerns to DC. I know you are new here so I will let you know that DC DOES read this forum...we have had contact from them in the past. That being said, I think this TC/Tranny Problem will be the last straw for some CRD owners. It is hard to trust a vehicle that goes into limp mode so often or has major TC/Tranny issues. There have been more than a few members on trips away from home that had to leave thier CRDs behind at out-of-town dealers for repairs. I am waiting to see what I am going to do about the tranny issue...also had a limp mode this weekend with some weird sounds. Already had one engine BLOW UP...makes me a little paranoid.
Author:  Cowpie1 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:35 am ]
Post subject: 
But then where would those of us who don't have any problems with our CRD's go to enjoy the sparks that fly on this forum. Sometimes I feel like I am in a truck driver's lounge at the truck stop with all the whinning here. :lol:

Really though, I don't mind the whinning and frustration of the other owners. It is good that these issues are brought to the awareness of all of us. I would agree that many here are experiencing their first diesel and are just realizing that they have to readjust driving habits and mechanical expertise to deal with the CRD. I have owned and driven diesel pickups and semis for over 30 years and I have to say, that my CRD is a darn good vehicle. I put a lot of what I have learned over those years into practice with my CRD and have been real pleased with its performance. I have pulled grain wagons on the farm with it, I have rounded up cattle in real muddy fields, have barreled through some good sized snow drifts, regularly pull a fuel wagon (yes, loaded), and taken some long distance trips with high 20's fuel mileage. I have done all the TSB's without a hiccup in performance.

Is it a jackrabbit out of gate when the stop light changes? Heck no. But it (nor a majority of diesels) wasn't meant to be. If you are looking for neck snapping performance, get a gasser and put a blower on it and feed it nitrous.

It has been my experience that no matter what sized vehicle, if a person tries to drive a diesel like a gasser, they will usually experience more problems than normal. It's too bad that the learning curve can be rough on the wallet and peace of mind. One has to "learn" the particular diesel they are dealing with as it seems each and every engine is different in how it likes to operate. This is just as true with a CRD, Ram, or commercial semi. Gassers are far more forgiving of idiots, but then that is why they are in the majority of vehicles.

If you are having an excessive amount of problems with your CRD, also question if you are doing things right as well as blaming the manufacturer. Yes, there are lemons out there, but they are not as common as perceived. :shock:
Author:  Ranger1 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Better yet, share your CRD experiences, good or bad, with any prospective DC buyers, especially if they're interested in a Grand Cherokee CDI or MB ML320 CDI. You can help someone else avoid buying DC's mistakes. It's likely that most CRD owners are first adopters with DC diesels and prospective diesel buyers tend to ask for ownership experiences from them.

Give it to them. Be sure to include all the time spent waiting on parts that are always on back-order and show them the list of TSB's on the tranny issue. Share any repeat visits for multiple failures on the egr systems. Show them the clogged sensors pictures on this site - then point them to the unresolved TC issue.

If you see online articles about DC's upcoming diesel launch, email the authors and point them to this site. Provide them with access to more than just DC's press release materials. Ask the authors to write open letters to DC, asking them what they intend to do to address these problems, past, present and future, so that diesels don't again become the joke of the 80's - unreliable, high maintenance vehicles leaving their owners stranded with high repair bills and nightmare maintenance issues. Ask DC why they can't build a reliable diesel vehicle with good dealership support.

It's the least we could do to "thank" DC for all that they've done to/for us.
Author:  cerich [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:58 am ]
Post subject: 
I disagree.

Your premise woud be sound had we indeed purchased a vehicle that was marketed and clearly marked as "test market", "test vehicle"or something along that line. It wasn't.

We simply purchased a jeep liberty with a diesel.

If they were breaking because of extreme mods or extreme HD use, then in fact we could expect issues that at the end of the day would be our problem.

These CRD's are busting doing mall duty by and large! It is not unreasonable to expect them to hold up for use that in fact is no different than a 10K Kia Rio!
Author:  truckbouy2 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
I did not know DC read things here...
And I might add....Finally some good prose again....WITHOUT "buy back" "buy back" "lemon law" "lemon law"
You guys and gals are great.
Thanks so much :wink:
Author:  Ranger1 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
But then where would those of us who don't have any problems with our CRD's


I hear you. I'm in the same position with my 02 Liberty LTD V6 - its been near flawless, has the same tranny as our CRDs and has never left me stranded or disappointed. While driving it, I found it difficult to comprehend the difficulties other owners were having with theirs. I don't plan to sell it - I'll keep it for many many years. It's that satisfying to own and drive. But DC changed the quality of the Liberty over the years and they have managed to stay just one step on the side of legal with their warranty tricks they demonstrated with the CRD. Quite a display of confidence they show in their diesel launch. I think OldNavy hit dead on - this may be the nature of the newer multi-national auto businesses.

Owning a CRD opened my eyes. I can honestly say that I've spent more time on my CRD, cleaning intakes, adding auxillary CCV, cleaning sensors, researching tranny issues, and wasted downtime measured in weeks, sitting in the dealers repair bays, than all of my previous 15 vehicles combined. It's an unacceptable owner experience brought on by nothing more than DC's calculated refusal to support their product with warranty repairs that actually addresses the design flaws - because it would cost them too much. Funny, I didn't pay them with counterfeit currency.

But, while I feel fortunate to have a great Liberty in my 02, I would never recommend or purchase another Liberty or now, DC product again, thanks to the CRD experience and DC's response to its issues. This is a 180 degree turnaround from where I was prior to owning a CRD. There are just too many other great vehicles out there to put up with DC. For now, none are diesel powered, but I can live with a gasser again until someone else starts selling well built diesels.

So while one may be fortunate in owning a CRD without issues, what counts is how DC (not dealerships), will support those vehicles that do have issues. This is my concern with buying from them.
Author:  Marlon_JBT [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Believe me... DC reads this website... they read EVERY FORUM which relates to their products. They have a team strictly for reading what's out there on the web.

I've seen people at DEALERSHIPS on this site.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Marlon_JBT wrote:
Believe me... DC reads this website... they read EVERY FORUM which relates to their products. They have a team strictly for reading what's out there on the web.

I've seen people at DEALERSHIPS on this site.


Heck, the sales pamplets for the 2006 Liberty have a page mentioning L.O.S.T. and shows a L.O.S.T. trail ride in it.

As for a couple comments above, some are having little or no problems with their CRDs as of this date. I run a statewide moving company and all my trucks are diesel so I do have experience with them...from Ford PowerStrokes to Isuzu NPRs ect. I think the new ULSD helped out with the EGR problems we seemed to be having at first. The tranny issue is another animal all together. It is not the engine (excuse my blown one for the moment) that seems to be the culprit in our woes. This engine and previous ones from VM Motori have been used worldwide and proven thier worth. The quality of fuel was probably better in Europe which is a factor. Unless DC "UPGRADES" the TC and PUMP instead of reducing the power output ect. on the CRD, I think they will keep acting up until warranties expire.

For me, I would like to get the tranny issue resolved in a positive way...ie, TC with the correct stall speed and strength and a better pump to keep the fluid flowing properly. I think once we get the right combination, we will end up with power and economy that will put a smile on our faces. If things don't get better, DC will lose quite a few loyal Jeepers and some more $$$$ (short and long run).
Author:  KenJennings [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
If the CRD was experimental, I would certainly appreciate the company standing behind the experiment with a free extended warranty and a formal means of feedback to the company.

But, I can't see how this is an experimental vehicle. DC has sold tons of diesel Liberties in Europe, haven't they? What are they using for a torque converter in the auto transmissions in Europe? If European spec Liberty CRDs had problems I'd think we'd have heard something notable by now.

The fundamental problem appears to be DC itself and their 5-star dealer system. DC in the US is not forthcoming about problems and there seems to be no accountablility to train techs or improve/maintain their training. This 5-Star certification they pass out seems to be worthless as there are so many complaints about dealer ineptitude. There is a huge training gap for techs everywhere, not just for CRD. A transmission is a transmission, mostly. The CRD's drive train isn't exactly unique. And reports of techs overfilling or underfilling various fluids are certainly not specific to the CRD.

So, DC if you're reading this, GET A CLUE.
Author:  truckbouy2 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Now Mr. KenJennings you ask some darn good questions. The Toledo Plant is crankin' out these little Oilers like crazy for the Euros....
You WOULD think we would hear about Euro-issues with this little varmit wouldn't you, as there is a few Euros on this site. Hmmmmm..... I'm begining to smell a rat.... A German Rat. Any Euros out there want to expound on Mr. KJ's questions ???? Just how do the Euro specs differ from our Gringo oilers.....
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
As for the Euros...better fuel and mostly manual shift. On the Aussie Board they wonder why we have so many EGR issues ect. The other thing might be that this specific engine is the same age to them as us.

They used the 2.5L 8 valve first in the Voyager and Older Grand Cherokees with 85kw/262-300nm

Then the larger 3125CC I4 8 valve in the newer (1999-2001) Grand Cherokees 103kw/384nm

The old KJ (2001-2004) got the 2.5L 16 valve with 105kw/340nm

The new KJ (2005-2006) gets the 2.8L 16 valve with 130kw/410nm

The extra torque is the new factor that is probably causing the stock TC to faulter.
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
There have been numerous issues on '05+ KJs in the BUX market as there have been in the domestic market for the TC. They just sell less automatics there so it's not that widely heard of. MTX versions are also rated at a different torque output due to torque-carrying capacity of the transmission (generally less but not always).

Also, BUX versions have a different EGR system since they lack the throttle valve (not necessary at the time to meet EURO emissions), so combined with better fuel it's hard to compare the two. Also, some vehicles were retrofitted with pneumatic EGR systems which further inhibit a comparison.

Also, European standard for fuel is 50-52 cetane minimum with a max of 10-15ppm sulfur. Much better than what is usually found in the 'States.

[/i]
Author:  MACKJ [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:01 am ]
Post subject: 
MrMopar64 wrote:
There have been numerous issues on '05+ KJs in the BUX market as there have been in the domestic market for the TC. They just sell less automatics there so it's not that widely heard of. MTX versions are also rated at a different torque output due to torque-carrying capacity of the transmission (generally less but not always).

Also, BUX versions have a different EGR system since they lack the throttle valve (not necessary at the time to meet EURO emissions), so combined with better fuel it's hard to compare the two. Also, some vehicles were retrofitted with pneumatic EGR systems which further inhibit a comparison...

FYI the Aussie '05+KJ is nearly identical to the US model except for a few things shuffled around in the engine bay to accomodate RH vs LH drive...and we still haven't got ULSD yet...next year I think.
Author:  truckbouy2 [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:12 am ]
Post subject: 
So MackJ, are "Ya'll (Aussie CRD Owners)" experiencing the EGR and Sensor soot contamination us Yanks (Pretty good Huh...) are ????
Are the Austrailian Jeep/Chyrsler Dealers hobbled by DC on re-occuring isuues such as egr and automatic transmission woes as they are here (In the US) ???
Author:  MACKJ [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
truckbouy2 wrote:
So MackJ, are "Ya'll (Aussie CRD Owners)" experiencing the EGR and Sensor soot contamination us Yanks (Pretty good Huh...) are ????
Are the Austrailian Jeep/Chyrsler Dealers hobbled by DC on re-occuring isuues such as egr and automatic transmission woes as they are here (In the US) ???

Hi Ya'll too truckbouy2,
Pretty much experiencing the same problems as you guys except for the EGR problems.
Have not seen too much on the Aussie forums to do with EGR issues...and you can't believe what the dealers say (what EGR problem!!?).
I know the dealers have major parts shortages to cover the recalls and that is why they delay our recall notices for some months after they are issued in the US.
Author:  KJMedic [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why send them to DCX? All they will do is make excuses for there incompantance.

Moses wrote the Book. DCX wrote the Comic Book
Author:  wolcott [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I can certainly sympathize with people who have had problems with their CRD's. Mine has been trouble free, except for an EGR valve. A lot of the problem seems to be caused by the diesel available in the US, combined with the EPA's required pollution controls, especially exhaust gas recirculation. However, in defense of Daimler Chrysler,while DC has had some problems with vehicle, they have a much better engine than some of the competitors. In my case, the Liberty replaced a 6.5 liter diesel Yukon that I had. In 120,000 miles the Yukon went through 8 (yes EIGHT) high pressure fuel injection pumps, and I had to replace the wiring harness to the pump ($500) because it was worn out from the repeated disconnections to test and replace the pump. This was combined with other problems, such the plastic transmission fill tube shattering, and some electrical problems. So, while the CRD has had some problems, DC has done a better job that GM did with their sport utility diesel.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not trying to rain on your parade or dis your observations, but saying that DC did a better job than GM doesn't count for much in my book. That's akin to saying the CRD is a better vehicle than the Edsel.
Author:  spencevans [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:54 am ]
Post subject: 
retmil46 wrote:
Not trying to rain on your parade or dis your observations, but saying that DC did a better job than GM doesn't count for much in my book. That's akin to saying the CRD is a better vehicle than the Edsel.


Amen
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