MotorWeek & Blutec V6 MB E Class

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:09 pm

(Mine doesn't even say "Diesel Fuel Only" !!!!!!!!

KJMedic · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:29 pm

I do like it. But way too much money. I would buy a GMC or Chevy with 660lbs of torque for less than 40 grand.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

At 46 grand that is more than twice what I paid for the Liberty. The GC is not 2x the Liberty. I will have to leave a message for my old saleman:
"Don't bother calling and asking if I am interested"

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:57 pm

oldnavy wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

Could be a misprint on the window sticker.

Under the Base Price, listing standard equipment, it does say 5 speed tranny. But in the EPA Fuel info box on the other side, it says 4 speed automatic. And it lists the tranny as being German made.

MB hasn't offered a 4 spd auto tranny for about 8 or 10 years if I am remember correctly. My guess would be a misprint for the EPA box. Heck the W5A/NAG-1 only requires a software upgrade to be six speed tranny, so who knows.

Did a little searching on the web, then called my friend in Texas. It is a 5 speed MB tranny, the W5J400, that they've already used in overseas diesel GC's.

If that's the case, DC may be lining up to let the bean counters shoot them in the foot again. If I understand how someone once explained MB tranny designations, the "400" is the torque rating, and that V6 diesel is rated for close to 380 ft/lbs torque.

If the "400" for the torque rating is in newton-meters, 1.356 newton-meters equals 1 ft/lb, which works out to roughly 300 ft/lbs - which would mean the bean counters were setting us up for even more tranny headaches.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:41 am

It is not the torque rating of the tranny, or so I was told couple of years ago. The Sprinter last 3 digits is 380 and it only has 243 ft-lbs of torque, the last 3 for the 5spd used in LX cars like the Magnum with 3.5l V6 is 580 with 250 ft-lbs torque and the SRT-8 6.1L only has 420 ft-lbs of torque so I doubt that is what the code reperesents. I was told several years ago the W5A580 was rated for 500 ft-lbs, but have no idea if that was correct.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:55 am

oldnavy wrote:

It is not the torque rating of the tranny, or so I was told couple of years ago. The Sprinter last 3 digits is 380 and it only has 243 ft-lbs of torque, the last 3 for the 5spd used in LX cars like the Magnum with 3.5l V6 is 580 with 250 ft-lbs torque and the SRT-8 6.1L only has 420 ft-lbs of torque so I doubt that is what the code reperesents. I was told several years ago the W5A580 was rated for 500 ft-lbs, but have no idea if that was correct.

Here's to hoping you're right! From what I've browsed on line, the CRD is going to be available in the Laredo, Limited, and Overland 4X2 and 4X4 versions, but once again it's only going to be available with a slushbox, the W5J400 your only choice. Base for a Laredo is something over $28K, probably close to the $32K you mentioned with the CRD.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

If the "400" for the torque rating is in newton-meters, 1.356 newton-meters equals 1 ft/lb, which works out to roughly 300 ft/lbs - which would mean the bean counters were setting us up for even more tranny headaches.

Not a problem, sir, we have a flash that will take care of that pesky torque... yessir, once we have your money, we'll detorque it along with the first oil change, no extra charge!!!

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Based off of this UK web site, the W5J400 tranny is a WA580... the web site shows a different diesel engine, but the same tranny. Not that it matters to me - I've tasted the DC warranty KoolAid and don't care for any more.

"The new engine is mated to the WA 580 5-speed automatic transmission, which is also new to Grand Cherokee. This electronically controlled wide ratio automatic transmission – known in Grand Cherokee as the W5J400 transmission, is derived from that which is currently utilised in the Mercedes-Benz C-, E- and M-Class ranges."

From this web site:

http://www.carpages.co.uk/chrysler_jeep ... _11_02.asp

PS - I found several comments about the WA580 claiming that 580 is newton meters - at .7357 x nm = 427 ft-lbs. Also found some comments that the 3rd 5 in 545RFE is believed to be 500 nm (500 nm x .7357 = 368 ft-lbs). If this is true, both trannys should be adequate for both the R428 and 3.0 CDI. FWIW.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:11 am

Too much jingle for me. I won't pay over 30k for a car, it just doesn't make sense to me to pay that much money for a car. I paid 23k for my Liberty CRD and I thought that was a lot. I guess if I had more money than brains, I would go for it, but fortunately for me that isn't the case.

That said, the loredo may be a popular model for the diesel. If the base is say 32-34k, then hopefully after incentives and haggling one might be able to grab a new one for 26-28k. IMO the majority of Diesel buyers in the short term are going to be those looking for better fuel economy and usually those buyers don't get all the fancy bells and whistles on their rides. There may also be a few buyers who get sold on a very expensive model by the salesman saying "you know that thing got a Benz engine and transmission in it".

I don't know, that's just me though. People looking for big diesel power would likely go with the big three HD trucks in that price range (Dodge, Chevy, Ford). Heck you can get a tricked out 2500 Duramax with 20" rims for about the same price.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Looking at the pricing for the CDI GC, it appears that fantasy-land is alive and well in the minds of corporate DC execs. No recognition of the mess they made of supporting their diesel intro with the CRD. Just onward and upward, with premium pricing because it has a mercedes engine. With a 3/36 on that MB engine?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:36 am

Could be like the 45RFE and 545RFE - same tranny, set up differently for different engines. Behind the 3.7 V6 in the GC, it's called the W5A580, and behind the CRD in the GC it's called the W5J400, at least for the US market. Ran across several online magazine articles, dated Feb '07, that used these two different designations for the V6 and CRD trannys.

Does get confusing. I've seen the W5A580 also listed as the NAG-1 and the 722.6.

Just have to wait and see. Right now, given the situation at work this year, my experience so far with two DC vehicles, how much I owe on the CRD, and the distinct possibility of being able to make the tranny reliable with aftermarket parts, I'm in no rush to go trading again. I'll let someone else be DC's guinea pig this time.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:42 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Could be like the 45RFE and 545RFE - same tranny, set up differently for different engines. Behind the 3.7 V6 in the GC, it's called the W5A580, and behind the CRD in the GC it's called the W5J400, at least for the US market. Ran across several online magazine articles, dated Feb '07, that used these two different designations for the V6 and CRD trannys.

Does get confusing. I've seen the W5A580 also listed as the NAG-1 and the 722.6.

Just have to wait and see. Right now, given the situation at work this year, my experience so far with two DC vehicles, how much I owe on the CRD, and the distinct possibility of being able to make the tranny reliable with aftermarket parts, I'm in no rush to go trading again. I'll let someone else be DC's guinea pig this time.

The W5A580 is mfg in US under licience from MB and the NAG-1 is just the US mfg designation for the tranny. One unusual thing in the agreement is that it is to have all MB markings and tags, they come in a crate with all the German MB markings as I have seen several over the last couple of years. The 45RFE & 545RFE is all US design & built, but has borrowed some oddities such as the move to a seal instead of Oring for the tranny dipstick, the use of the 42RLE without tranny dip stick such as the W5A such as used in the LX cars that are basically MB with cheap Dodge body.

The W5J400 used in the Sprinter is also a 6 spd tranny but only programmed for 5 spd use in US, the letter number changes is just a tracking method for what tranny is used and how used. Just as 45RFE & 545RFE only tells you that they are the same except the one has an extra gear added and they are both rear drive Fully Electronic. It says nothing about torque or what vehicle it has to be used with, only what it is so it can be tracked.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Whatever they call the tranny, one thing for sure: It aint going in the commander:

The Detroit News is reporting that Chrysler Group is considering discontinuing the Jeep Commander after the 2009 model year:

"The future of the hulking Jeep Commander SUV introduced a little over a year ago looks bleak.

Auto analysts and other industry officials say the Commander, a boxy three-row SUV built at Chrysler's Jefferson North Assembly Plant in Detroit, is likely to be discontinued after the 2009 model-year.

"We removed the Commander from our forecast" after the 2009 model year, said Jeff Schuster, forecasting analyst with California-based J.D. Power and Associates. J.D. Power and other auto forecasting firms gather information from suppliers and other industry sources privy to automakers' future production plans."

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I'm in no rush to go trading again. I'll let someone else be DC's guinea pig this time.

Exactly. With DC cutting costs on critical internal drive-line components, where you can't see it until it fails, then refusing to correct the sub-standard spec component issue, there isn't any other safe option when evaluating DC vehicles.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:54 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

I'm in no rush to go trading again. I'll let someone else be DC's guinea pig this time.

Exactly. With DC cutting costs on critical internal drive-line components, where you can't see it until it fails, then refusing to correct the sub-standard spec component issue, there isn't any other safe option when evaluating DC vehicles.

Well stated. Where does the cost cutting end? This is the real question we have to ask. The American car companies are in really big trouble financially and I don't see cost cutting of this nature boosting sales or getting them out of hock. Reputation is everything and quality problems will destroy the reputation of any car company in short order. They are designing the tolerances on these vehicles so close, that one small error creates a very large and much more expensive problem, then if they would have installed a more durable component from the beginning which allowed for a little wiggle room on the specs of the vehicle.

I love my CRD, and I plan to keep it for as long as possible. We have to be honest here though, this was an experiment. DCX knew of the impending emissions changes and they knew that in it's current setup the Liberty CRD would not go past the 2006 model year. It is much cheaper for them to use the same engine and/or transmission across a number of vehicles rather than offer vehicle specific engine and transmission options. They just didn't put any R&D into this setup...and that is why the problems with the tranny. Hopefully, by the time the transmission goes in mine, after market options will be available that will eliminate this transmission problem. The GC may be a totally different animal though....if it is using an engine and tranny combo that is already proven across the pond.

Overall, I think our CRDs will last a very long time. The engine is a solid and proven engine and I think we can all agree that our tranny issues can be resolved with after market solutions. Hopefully, the EGR reliability will go up with the new ULSD but I guess only time will tell on that.

What I really want to see is a Town & Country mini-van with something like a 2.0L CRD engine in it. Now that would really get my attention, because I hate the 05 Uplander LT that my wife currently drives. Build quality is still an issue with GM products. The van has 32k on it and it is 1.5 years old....all kind of little interior parts breaking...rattles..etc. The 3.5 V-6 has been reliable, but fuel economy is horrible for an engine of that size as the best is 22 or 23 mpg on the highway and much less in city driving.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:10 pm

no-blue-screen wrote:

What I really want to see is a Town & Country mini-van with something like a 2.0L CRD engine in it. Now that would really get my attention, because I hate the 05 Uplander LT that my wife currently drives. Build quality is still an issue with GM products. The van has 32k on it and it is 1.5 years old....all kind of little interior parts breaking...rattles..etc. The 3.5 V-6 has been reliable, but fuel economy is horrible for an engine of that size as the best is 22 or 23 mpg on the highway and much less in city driving.

If you are in Canada you will be in luck, it seems D/C will use our 2.8L in the Canadian diesel T&C van for a $1,200 option is what I read somewhere.

Bubba · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:34 pm **Posts:** 46

So does anyone know if the “Quadra-Trac 11) or the Electronic Limited Slip front and rear work only in low range? In the same show that featured the MB 320 they talked about the G-80 locking differential on the new Chevy / GMC trucks. They program said it will lock up at speeds UP TO 20 mph. I confirmed with a GM buddy that at speeds above 20 mph the G-80 is an open diff. Is the Electronic Limited Slip front and rear ever open in high range other than a complete dry condition?

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:20 pm

oldnavy wrote:

no-blue-screen wrote:

What I really want to see is a Town & Country mini-van with something like a 2.0L CRD engine in it. Now that would really get my attention, because I hate the 05 Uplander LT that my wife currently drives. Build quality is still an issue with GM products. The van has 32k on it and it is 1.5 years old....all kind of little interior parts breaking...rattles..etc. The 3.5 V-6 has been reliable, but fuel economy is horrible for an engine of that size as the best is 22 or 23 mpg on the highway and much less in city driving.

If you are in Canada you will be in luck, it seems D/C will use our 2.8L in the Canadian diesel T&C van for a $1,200 option is what I read somewhere.

I'm not sure if Canada is allowed the Export engine option, but for Europe/UK, the 2.5L is available on MTX applications and the 2.8L available on ATX applications.

2.5L CRD + boost + 5-spd + minivan = fun. They also get amazing fuel economy.

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:41 pm

They have been using them in the vans overseas for some time.

http://www.vmmotori.it/en/01/02/00/index.jsp

http://www.vmmotori.it/en/01/01/index.jsp

Do a bit of research on http://cars.uk.msn.com/ you will be sick after you see what is available with a diesel in it.

Marlon_JBT · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:01 pm

oldnavy wrote:

such as used in the LX cars that are basically MB with cheap Dodge body.

I cannot stress enough how this IS NOT TRUE AT ALL. So it has a VERSION of a suspension used on a MB car. That does NOT DEFINE A PLATFORM.

OK, I'm done.

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