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WARNING: New ECM Flashes appear to Reduce Engine Performance
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18046		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  sbohner [ Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  WARNING: New ECM Flashes appear to Reduce Engine Performance
It dawned on me that some of my recent ECM flash experience with our CRD would make a good new thread on its own. In particular, many of our LOST KJ CRD owners are not aware that any ECM flash performed on our CRDs appears to now introduce the ECM detuning that is found in the F37. :shock:

I was shocked to find this when I took my CRD in and the dealer flashed my ECM without my approval. The result was my CRD experiencing noticeable reduction in response and power. That discussion can be found on the "Unapproved ECM Flash after CEL" thread (http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=17932).

Bottom line: I was not aware that any new ECM flash would include the modifications that made the F37 so controversial. However, since I had it done and interacted with several CRD'ers, it appears that this is true and LOST KJ members should be made aware!

I'm interested in what you think of this policy and what we could do in response.
Author:  macd [ Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
If in fact there is a reduction in power by this flash, not only is it a questionable business practice, but highly illegal. The problem is can anyone prove it??
Author:  no-blue-screen [ Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
This has been discussed in many different threads here. It doesn't need to be proven for F37 because the all data link clearly states that there is a small reduction in torque to increase torque converter durability.

Many who had the F31 recall also complained that their performance was adversely affected. Supposedly, peak torque output of the engine is still the same....but they are reducing torque during shifting or at ceratin other times to prevent the torque converter failures. I can't prove anything that has been stated in this second paragraph, these are just things I have read throughout the forums.

Doing a search will produce many discussions with many different positions on this issue.
Author:  sbohner [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi no-blue-screen,

The issue of all future ECM flashes incorporating the reductions in torque has not been discussed in a focused thread -- I did a search. It was alluded to in the "New CS Recall - F37" and in my thread cited in the first post of this thread "Unapproved ECM Flash after CEL." I think this is important enough to warrant a focused discussion. I think that Darby or OldNavy could weigh in on this one if it really is a concern.

This thread is not as much about F37 or F31 as it is about the fact that a CRD can have the ECM flashed for ANY reason and get the neutered performance as a by-product -- DCX does not put a warning label or provide any indication that it will effect the performance in any way -- they just do it and we are suppose to acquiesce. While it is called a Customer Satisfaction Recall in F37 that is supposedly recommended (but not mandated), it gets propagated to all other ECM flashes. Then DCX has the nerve to prohibit dealers from returning the ECM to the original flash. Does this not sound a bit like a force feeding?

In effect, it's like going in for a routine service and having the fuel injectors changed out with ones that have less flow because the engine produces too much torque for the TC. Most of us would howl "FOUL" about that -- how is the ECM programming any different? The software in the ECM is only provided by DCX and earlier versions are expressly prohibited from distribution to the dealers – that sounds even worst to me. At least with the injectors, there are probably injectors available from a third party. I suppose a provider like Immotion could provide the ECM flash, but it would void the warranty so fast that the ink would fly off the paper.
Author:  no-blue-screen [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
sbohner,

oldnavy and darby are knowledgable guys, but the point is that this is general knowlege on this forum. The flashing is on both the F31 and F37 recalls. Also, the flash TSBs that were out prior were also listed as "perform if the vehicle is in for service". So technically, they dealers are suposed to be flashing the ECM/TCM on these vehicles if they come in for service.

That said, I certainly don't agree with the logic of DCX in reducing or changing things like this just to save a buck because they used inferior parts in the first place. I agree with your frustration and just about everyone else on this forum feels the same from what I have read. I also agree with you that I wouldn't want them flashing my ECM/TCM without asking me first...but unfortunately from the wording of the recalls and TSBs...it looks they customer approval isn't required.

I wasn't trying to discourage you from making this post....I was just trying to let you know (in case you didn't already) that this issue has been discussed at legnth on this forum and there is a lot of good reading on those threads.
Author:  BVCRD [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:41 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree it that the topic has been coverd in great length. Does anyone have any proof, like a dyno before or after? I know of some folks that have had it and can't tell the difference. Maybe the seat of their pants isn't as sensitive as some, or maybe it is.
Author:  RTStabler51 [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 
I haven't kept up with the long thread on the F37, but (un)fortnately, I just had the F37 done, and haven't noticed any 'bad' things about it just yet. I will find out in a few weeks though when I pull 4000+ lbs....
Author:  sbohner [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks no-blue-screen,

I had misread your post and though that I was getting a message to nicely say keep quiet since it had all been said before. :oops: I see now that I was wrong and appreciate your willingness to ensure that I'm heading down the right path. :)

Warm regards,
Shawn
Author:  BVCRD [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:56 am ]
Post subject: 
RTStabler51 wrote:
I haven't kept up with the long thread on the F37, but (un)fortnately, I just had the F37 done, and haven't noticed any 'bad' things about it just yet. I will find out in a few weeks though when I pull 4000+ lbs....





There is a guy down the street that I have been working with trying to find the chirp that comes on (sometimes) around 2000-2500 rpms with quite a bit of throttle. No luck on that yet, but he has had the F37 done on his and while I don't drive his everyday in varying situations, I have found his to be near the same as my 2006. Haven't had a load on behind it, but just going down the road, what's the big deal? Is it mainly, that you are pissed because they didn't ask you first?
Author:  no-blue-screen [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:15 am ]
Post subject: 
sbohner wrote:
Thanks no-blue-screen,

I had misread your post and though that I was getting a message to nicely say keep quiet since it had all been said before. :oops: I see now that I was wrong and appreciate your willingness to ensure that I'm heading down the right path. :)

Warm regards,
Shawn


No worries, I just wanted to let you know of all the info that is on here about it....you aren't alone in your frustration with this.
Author:  RFCRD [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
macd wrote:
If in fact there is a reduction in power by this flash, not only is it a questionable business practice, but highly illegal. The problem is can anyone prove it??

I sent a message to my lawyer for advice on this subject. Will let you know what he believes is worth persuing.
Author:  BVCRD [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:35 am ]
Post subject: 
IF it is true that ALL late model 2006's came with this reduced torque because of updates given at the factory, then I say big deal. I bought mine this way, and since I never experienced the pre-torque seat of the pants feel, I never missed it. That said, I have found that power is adequate, in fact impressive when towing with mine through the highest mountain passes in the country. I don't believe the loss of torque from the F37 is a safety issue. It still isn't "doggy" like the sensation I experienced when I test drove a 3.7L.

Even RFCRD said he liked the way it shifted after the F37. He made no mention that it was scary. I kind of got the idea he was liking it.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WARNING: New ECM Flashes appear to Reduce Engine Perform
sbohner wrote:
It dawned on me that some of my recent ECM flash experience with our CRD would make a good new thread on its own. In particular, many of our L.O.S.T. KJ CRD owners are not aware that any ECM flash performed on our CRDs appears to now introduce the ECM detuning that is found in the F37. :shock:

I was shocked to find this when I took my CRD in and the dealer flashed my ECM without my approval. The result was my CRD experiencing noticeable reduction in response and power. That discussion can be found on the "Unapproved ECM Flash after CEL" thread (http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=17932).

Bottom line: I was not aware that any new ECM flash would include the modifications that made the F37 so controversial. However, since I had it done and interacted with several CRD'ers, it appears that this is true and L.O.S.T. KJ members should be made aware!

I'm interested in what you think of this policy and what we could do in response.


FlyingJ posted a link to a case where Chrysler had misrepresented power levels on the Dakota truck and were sued by owners over it. Try this link, look for the link under FlyingJ to see if any ideas come to mind:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... c&start=30
Author:  Reflex [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:12 am ]
Post subject: 
I have not been able to figure out what the big deal is. I just haven't noticed a difference. After the service where they applied it there just was no noticable difference in performance, if anything the vehicle in general has gotten smoother and smoother to drive(probably due to break in peroid).
Author:  Endurance [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:14 am ]
Post subject: 
I guess we'll find out tomorrow, wont we? => http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=18075
Author:  sbohner [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Great post on Dodge Dakota R-T Ranger1. The down-rating seems to be a pattern. One would think that DCX would have learned from the experience and been more cautious with a new entry diesel given the Dakota experience and that of GM with the Oldsmobile diesel.

The best thing that DCX could do now is to engineer a strong TC solution that retains the advertised torque/HP of the VM Motori engine. DCX could make lemonade out of this apparent lemon. Stepping up to this solution makes economic sense given the $millions they are investing in a future diesel market. It is not good to start off with an Oldsmobile diesel type poster-child as you launch diesels in the US.

Just think of the $millions DCX invests in their marketing each year to win over perhaps 10,000-20,000 new customers and compare it to the costs of doing the “right thing” for 11,000 existing customers (at about $1000 each), each of which would be likely to remain a customer. Business 101 tells us that it is cheaper to keep a customer than to win over new ones – especially on $high-ticket items.
Author:  sbohner [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Reflex,

When was your 2006 Liberty manufactured. The detuned version of the ECM software was introduced into the product line I think in August or October of 2005 if I remember right. Perhaps this might explain it. All I know is that mine is certainly noticeable.
Author:  BVCRD [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:51 am ]
Post subject: 
sbohner wrote:
Hi Reflex,

When was your 2006 Liberty manufactured. The detuned version of the ECM software was introduced into the product line I think in August or October of 2005 if I remember right. Perhaps this might explain it. All I know is that mine is certainly noticeable.



I think the cut off date was Nov 2, 2005. I had the latest de=tune done to mine at my request in Feb 2006 and haven't noticed ANY differences. Supposed to be the same as F31 and F37 torque reduction.
Author:  alljeep [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
BVCRD wrote:
sbohner wrote:
Hi Reflex,

When was your 2006 Liberty manufactured. The detuned version of the ECM software was introduced into the product line I think in August or October of 2005 if I remember right. Perhaps this might explain it. All I know is that mine is certainly noticeable.



I think the cut off date was Nov 2, 2005. I had the latest de=tune done to mine at my request in Feb 2006 and haven't noticed ANY differences. Supposed to be the same as F31 and F37 torque reduction.


You wouldn't notice then because your build date was after the cut-off date. Your signature states a build date of December 2005. I was not detuned until late August of 2006 so I had nearly a year of driving under the old software regime - lot's of off the line racing to notice a difference.
Author:  BVCRD [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
alljeep wrote:
BVCRD wrote:
sbohner wrote:
Hi Reflex,

When was your 2006 Liberty manufactured. The detuned version of the ECM software was introduced into the product line I think in August or October of 2005 if I remember right. Perhaps this might explain it. All I know is that mine is certainly noticeable.



I think the cut off date was Nov 2, 2005. I had the latest de=tune done to mine at my request in Feb 2006 and haven't noticed ANY differences. Supposed to be the same as F31 and F37 torque reduction.


You wouldn't notice then because your build date was after the cut-off date. Your signature states a build date of December 2005.




True, but I had a reflash done that supposedly did the same as the F31-37 torque reduction. No difference after.
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