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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:39 pm 
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Thanks for your candor about not knowing of any longitudinal studies on effects on engines. I wish there were some. I fear that there is a rather tight link between the petroleum and automotive industries...tight enough to make it at least plausible that this very link might make Bosch not approve of alternatives, rather than having actual data. Also, there may be laziness at work: why should Bosch invest anything into actual research? Easier to just disapprove.

While I can agree with the point on Bosch, after all any other fuel requires more testing, I have to disagree on the automotive industry. Especially the US automotovie industry. They are dying, anything they can do that would benefit their image is a good thing. If they are in tight with the oil companies, they need to go ask for a loan because without it they are all dead at the rate they are going. If they could release the fabled 100mpg carberator of urban legend, they'd do it in a second, I guarantee it.

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Now for my main quibble with what you've written, regarding potential benefits of biofuels. As with many scientific studies, there are contradictory results. But I've only seen one study done on biodiesel that showed a net energy loss, and that one was later contradicted rather directly by a U. of Minnesota study: they found a net increase in energy yield of +93% for biodiesel, versus +25% for ethanol. The same study found that biodiesel produced 41% fewer greenhouse gases compared with petrodiesel. From what I understand, they tried to factor in all energy consumption, including fuel for tractors, fertilizers, etc.

There are studies going both ways, just recently the University of Oregon did a major study that demonstrated a huge deficit, it has put the Oregon legislature's plans on hold(I don't have a link right now, sorry). But even assuming it was energy positive, the list I made covered *many* other reasons why its a bad idea, which is why I listed so many potential issues at once. Even if it was an energy positive, even if our engines had zero issues with it, what about the land use, pollution, CO2 increase due to lack of natural forests, etc etc that I listed out? There are too many negatives right now, and no easy answer to them.

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You are also not including the fact that there is actually a fair amount of biodiesel that is made from a recycled product: old restaurant oil. If that source of oil were put under the same test that U. Minn. did, the energy yield could (arguably) be way up from +93%, given that the crop was actually grown for a different initial purpose and would have been produced anyway.

Two problems with the waste argument: 1) It will never be enough to be a major impact since energy use scales pretty lineraly with economic output(ie: we'd never produce enough waste to cover our uses without at the same time creating more need for energy in the process), and 2) Much of the so-called 'waste' is already used for other purposes, like feed, mulch, fertilizer and so on. While its good to use as much of it as possible, its always at best a '2% solution'.

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Like you, I have high hopes for algae-based fuels. And as for fertilizing the algae, the slickest thing I've heard of was an MIT experiment retrofitting a factory with algae-based scrubbers. Previously the factory had failed emissions standards...emitting sulpher, nitrous oxides, and greenhouse gases of various flavors. The algae loved that pollution, and could be periodically harvested and pressed to make oil for biodiesel. The emissions left the scrubbers clean.

I read this as well, Scientific American covered it a few months back. It makes a LOT of sense, if it can be done cost-effectively such scrubbers could be exported to the third world to help control thier CO2 output as well. It will never generate enough power to cover what the factory itself is using of course, but it is a way to reclaim a portion of it while cleaning up the factory's output.

For larger scale algae farms I think we will need to find a way to harvest or redirect farm runoff for its nitrogen content, but thats another discussion. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:44 pm 
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greiswig wrote:
Like you, I have high hopes for algae-based fuels. And as for fertilizing the algae, the slickest thing I've heard of was an MIT experiment retrofitting a factory with algae-based scrubbers. Previously the factory had failed emissions standards...emitting sulpher, nitrous oxides, and greenhouse gases of various flavors. The algae loved that pollution, and could be periodically harvested and pressed to make oil for biodiesel. The emissions left the scrubbers clean.


Even better, BioD algae was used to clean up a coal power plant. Here's the link.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Reflex wrote:
There are studies going both ways, just recently the University of Oregon did a major study that demonstrated a huge deficit, it has put the Oregon legislature's plans on hold(I don't have a link right now, sorry). But even assuming it was energy positive, the list I made covered *many* other reasons why its a bad idea, which is why I listed so many potential issues at once. Even if it was an energy positive, even if our engines had zero issues with it, what about the land use, pollution, CO2 increase due to lack of natural forests, etc etc that I listed out? There are too many negatives right now, and no easy answer to them.


Forgive me, I haven't read this whole thread, or your contribution to it. I did read that study (http://arec.oregonstate.edu/). Chief concern I had was that it wasn't clear how they were calculating their costs. They seemed to be targeting "for Oregon" feasibility primarily. "We don't produce a lot of canola in Oregon" was one of their comments, so they'd have to transport that here to process. This also seemed to be one reason they really liked ethanol made from wood pulp: we have a lot of that in Oregon. They certainly didn't seem to be taking into account other costs...such as the cost of NOT doing something about greenhouse gas emissions, although they did acknowledge that those emissions are reduced using the three biofuels. Just "at a cost."

As for land use, yes, I'm concerned. I don't want to see deforestation to make room for more crops, but I don't want to see new oil fields, spills, wars, and so forth either. I'm hoping algae will replace corn as a fuel source, and let corn fields be turned back over to food production. As for pollution, I don't follow you. It was one of my points that using biofuels will reduce pollution in the long run.

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Two problems with the waste argument: 1) It will never be enough to be a major impact since energy use scales pretty lineraly with economic output(ie: we'd never produce enough waste to cover our uses without at the same time creating more need for energy in the process), and 2) Much of the so-called 'waste' is already used for other purposes, like feed, mulch, fertilizer and so on. While its good to use as much of it as possible, its always at best a '2% solution'.


I wasn't trying to say that waste oil will ever account for a huge percentage of biodiesel feedstock. But it does account for some, and it actually empowers individuals to try to contribute something to the solution. Personally, I'd rather see WVO go into biodiesel than into cosmetics, which is where a lot of it currently goes once the renderers are done with it.

I certainly don't subscribe to the "magic bullet" theory of biodiesel. Or hydrogen. Or solar, wind, etc. If we were to examine the state of the art in solar, for example, we'd find a very large cost per unit energy currently, so much that it isn't really tenable. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to pursue it as a viable option for the future, when the "future trends that could shift the prospects" mentioned in the UofO study shift. And I'm betting they will.

I'm done trying to convince anyone in this forum, though. If you want to talk to me more about this I'd be happy to, but you'll have to drive south to Portland and buy me a beer. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:29 pm 
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One thing I'll state is that I generally ignore the 'cost' based arguments regarding alternative energy. Our economy is vast enough to absorb whatever the cost may be, and if its high enough it will simply alter our behaviour. I don't think we are entitled to 'cheap fuel' in any way, shape or form, we are only entitled to fuel at market price, whatever that may be. The arguments about its cost vs. petroleum or other factors obscure the larger question of whether or not its an energy positive and what its long term effects on the biosphere really are. So please don't think I'm complaining about expense, I pointedly did not bring that up in my list of issues for specific reasons as I feel its a common attack used to discredit the very idea of biofuels, which I am not inherantly opposed to(merely thier current implementation).

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As for land use, yes, I'm concerned. I don't want to see deforestation to make room for more crops, but I don't want to see new oil fields, spills, wars, and so forth either. I'm hoping algae will replace corn as a fuel source, and let corn fields be turned back over to food production. As for pollution, I don't follow you. It was one of my points that using biofuels will reduce pollution in the long run.

Deforestation reduces the earth's natural ability to absorb pollution and CO2, which are the primary reasons people are proposing them in the first place. Furthermore, farm runoff is some of the most damaging pollution in the world(I linked to information on that earlier), increasing agriculture will increase that type of pollution which is every bit as damaging to our land and water as gasoline combustion is to our air. They are all linked, reducing one at the cost of another does not gain us any traction.

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I wasn't trying to say that waste oil will ever account for a huge percentage of biodiesel feedstock. But it does account for some, and it actually empowers individuals to try to contribute something to the solution. Personally, I'd rather see WVO go into biodiesel than into cosmetics, which is where a lot of it currently goes once the renderers are done with it.

This assumes a zero sum game. If it does not go to cosmetics, then cosmetics companies will turn to other sources that are not based on waste(ie: something else energy intensive). Its not like Revlon is going to close up shop tommorrow because we use all the waste for driving around.

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I certainly don't subscribe to the "magic bullet" theory of biodiesel. Or hydrogen. Or solar, wind, etc. If we were to examine the state of the art in solar, for example, we'd find a very large cost per unit energy currently, so much that it isn't really tenable. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to pursue it as a viable option for the future, when the "future trends that could shift the prospects" mentioned in the UofO study shift. And I'm betting they will.

I am 100% in agreement with this statement. And you are correct, most people do not understand the big picture with thier 'magic bullet' theories of energy. Its hard not to laugh at people who claim you could cover a few square miles of desert with solar panels to supply all the US's power needs, they do not understand what the energy cost of those panels would be, the losses in transmission, etc etc. There is no easy way out. I also agree with you that at some point BioFuels will likely make sense, algae is currently the most promising variant of it, and there may be other equally good photosynthesizers yet to be considered. My concern however is that if we go forward using the material we intend to use now, in the short term it increases our oil consumption, and in the long term it has large scale negative effects on our biosphere way beyond the current global warming. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a warmer planet than a major water shortage(not diminishing the GW issue, just stating that worse things can happen).

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I'm done trying to convince anyone in this forum, though. If you want to talk to me more about this I'd be happy to, but you'll have to drive south to Portland and buy me a beer.

Anytime, I'm not that far away. I get down to Portland frequently if your serious.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:38 pm 
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PM sent!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:43 pm 
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Does this mean this stupid post topic is finished?

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oldnavy wrote:
Does this mean this stupid post topic is finished?


No, Goober from the old Andy Griffith show has not replied yet


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:05 pm 
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vtdog wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
Does this mean this stupid post topic is finished?


No, Goober from the old Andy Griffith show has not replied yet
Man this thread needs locked and sent to never never land.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:10 pm 
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Whats wrong with this thread? There is a lot of good info, on all sides of the issue here...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:19 pm 
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I have read this thread from beginning to end and found it to be very informative, and I don't even have a diesel. Lots to think about here.

I've also found that while there has been disagreement everyone has remained relatively civil, at least by internet forum standards!

Dave

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:02 pm 
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Um, I've resisted entering this ... fray. But the most recent paper on energy balance, economic and environmental costs of biofuels will settle all the major points of this discussion. This article is from "Science", the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a peer-reviewed journal that is pretty darn definitive.
"Environmental, economic, and energetic costs and benefis of biodiesel and ethanol biofuel"
Jason Hill, Erik Nelson, David Tillman, Stephan Polasky, and Douglas Tiffany
Science, July 25, 2006, vol 103, no 30, p11206-11210

They totalled EVERYTHING including fertilizer and transportation and water costs.

Here's the current net energy ratio (includes co-produced byproducts ie glycerin and junk):
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: 1.93
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 1.25

Here's the current net energy balance ratio if all you count is the fuel and energy to product it:
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: 3.67
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 1.25

They also went on to discuss the Life-Cycle Environmental Effects, Economic Competitiveness and Net Social Benefits, and Potential US Supply.
The Nitrogen and Phosophorus pesticides applied per Mega Joule of Net Energy was:
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: .1g N, .2g P
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 7.0g N, 2.6g P

The application of pesticides per Mega Joule of Net Energy was:
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: .01g
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: .10g
Pesticides were: Atrazine, Acentochlor, Metolachlor, Glyphosphate and others.

In comparison to their Greenhouse Gas Emissions, netwith production and farm inputs and decomp,
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: 49.0g/MJ
Diesel 82.3 g/MJ
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 84.9 g/MJ
Gasoline 96.9 g/MJ

They discuss the limits of total displaceable diesel/gasloine that could be done with food base biofuels. If ALL the US corn from 2005 was used:
12% of gasoline would have been discplaced BUT when counting energy used to produce it, net energy displaced: 2.4%
If ALL the US soy from 2005 was used:
6% of diesel would have been discplaced BUT when counting energy used to produce it, net energy displaced: 2.9%

So, these specific systems of making biofuels are ok, but no serious solution.

BUT

Consider the not-so future technologies using low-input, high-diversity feedstocks ("weeds"):
Biomass Electricity NEB Ratio: 5.51
Biomass Ethonal NEB ratio: 5.44
Biomass Synfuel ( Integrated gasification and combinedcycle technology with Fischer-tropsch synthesis) NEB: 8.09!!!!!
That's synthetic "bio" diesel...baby. Its practically FREE at 8 to one, should sell for $1.00 a gallon.

Now, the last IGCC-FT process is being currently run in Germany, and biomass electricty is happeneing in many US places (upstate NY). And the pesticide and fertilizer use on LIHD feedstocks is often 10 to 20 times less than for food-based feedstocks. Included is a higher carbon sequestering ability.

Now you can displace 13% of GLOBAL transportation fuel with the synthetic bio-fuels and 19% of global electrical consumption.

This is called Second Generation Biofuels, and is the real future. You can read about these in Science Dec 8 Vol 314 , p1598, another Tilman, Hill, and Lehman article

Biodiesel, in non-food, second generation form, is here to stay. It will displace food-based biodiesel because of ease (and is probably cheaper than algae). It is just too efficient, and way easier to grow "weeds". And actually nice to the environement.

Biodiesel is dead. Long Live Biodiesel (second Generation, that is)!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:54 pm 
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BioD Jeep,

Thanks, interesting read!

BUT

Reflex,

I sense your earlier words coming back up at you, like bad shrimp linguini:

Quote:
I am however a test engineer by trade(although not for cars) and I do trust the methodologies they were using.


Isn't the title of "engineer" usually reserved for, I dunno, people with engineering degrees? If not, it should be. LOL.

Quote:
Biodiesel is a solvant just like gasoline. It will eat away at an engine that was simply not engineered to run with a solvant inside. It will degrade even the metal over time.


How are gasoline engines "engineered to run with a solvent inside"? I'm still wondering about this, and you are an engineer, but you keep backtracking...

Quote:
It seems rather important that when you make an assertion, the science actually backs it up.


Hmmm... I agree.

Quote:
I know that biofuels have become a religion to many who do not understand the chemistry or the science behind them. There is nothing I can do about that. But I am qualified to talk about them, and I do understand what is going on here.


Hmmm... I do not agree.

Quote:
I am not a scientist. I am also not an automotive engineer, which is why I won't claim to know what all is damaged nor how. I am a software engineer in Seattle. I'll also mention that I do not have a college degree of any sort. I am very active with the local Democratic Party,


So, the whole story is finally revealed. At least you are an engineer of sorts. Kudos for warping the useage, though- A Clinton couldn't have done better.

You know, you claim that people on here have a religion for biofuel, but it is actually you who has a cause celebre. We were just reacting badly to the smell of "male ruminant remains" (yeah, that's a scientific term) that wafted from your earlier posts.

I would welcome a mod lock at this point, I don't think there is much left to say in this thread. *shakes head* :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:11 am 
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BiodieselJeep.com wrote:
Um, I've resisted entering this ... fray. But the most recent paper on energy balance, economic and environmental costs of biofuels will settle all the major points of this discussion. This article is from "Science", the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a peer-reviewed journal that is pretty darn definitive.
"Environmental, economic, and energetic costs and benefis of biodiesel and ethanol biofuel"
Jason Hill, Erik Nelson, David Tillman, Stephan Polasky, and Douglas Tiffany
Science, July 25, 2006, vol 103, no 30, p11206-11210

They totalled EVERYTHING including fertilizer and transportation and water costs.

Here's the current net energy ratio (includes co-produced byproducts ie glycerin and junk):
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: 1.93
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 1.25

Here's the current net energy balance ratio if all you count is the fuel and energy to product it:
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: 3.67
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 1.25

They also went on to discuss the Life-Cycle Environmental Effects, Economic Competitiveness and Net Social Benefits, and Potential US Supply.
The Nitrogen and Phosophorus pesticides applied per Mega Joule of Net Energy was:
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: .1g N, .2g P
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 7.0g N, 2.6g P

The application of pesticides per Mega Joule of Net Energy was:
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: .01g
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: .10g
Pesticides were: Atrazine, Acentochlor, Metolachlor, Glyphosphate and others.

In comparison to their Greenhouse Gas Emissions, netwith production and farm inputs and decomp,
Biodiesel from Soy in the US: 49.0g/MJ
Diesel 82.3 g/MJ
Ethanol from Corn grain in the US: 84.9 g/MJ
Gasoline 96.9 g/MJ

They discuss the limits of total displaceable diesel/gasloine that could be done with food base biofuels. If ALL the US corn from 2005 was used:
12% of gasoline would have been discplaced BUT when counting energy used to produce it, net energy displaced: 2.4%
If ALL the US soy from 2005 was used:
6% of diesel would have been discplaced BUT when counting energy used to produce it, net energy displaced: 2.9%

So, these specific systems of making biofuels are ok, but no serious solution.

BUT

Consider the not-so future technologies using low-input, high-diversity feedstocks ("weeds"):
Biomass Electricity NEB Ratio: 5.51
Biomass Ethonal NEB ratio: 5.44
Biomass Synfuel ( Integrated gasification and combinedcycle technology with Fischer-tropsch synthesis) NEB: 8.09!!!!!
That's synthetic "bio" diesel...baby. Its practically FREE at 8 to one, should sell for $1.00 a gallon.

Now, the last IGCC-FT process is being currently run in Germany, and biomass electricty is happeneing in many US places (upstate NY). And the pesticide and fertilizer use on LIHD feedstocks is often 10 to 20 times less than for food-based feedstocks. Included is a higher carbon sequestering ability.

Now you can displace 13% of GLOBAL transportation fuel with the synthetic bio-fuels and 19% of global electrical consumption.

This is called Second Generation Biofuels, and is the real future. You can read about these in Science Dec 8 Vol 314 , p1598, another Tilman, Hill, and Lehman article

Biodiesel, in non-food, second generation form, is here to stay. It will displace food-based biodiesel because of ease (and is probably cheaper than algae). It is just too efficient, and way easier to grow "weeds". And actually nice to the environement.

Biodiesel is dead. Long Live Biodiesel (second Generation, that is)!!!!


My compliments, perhaps the only post in this thread worth reading. A peer-reviewed article and study, with the info needed to find it and read/decide for ourselves.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to run up to the truck stop and fill the Mercedes with 20% battery acid. :wink:

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retmil46 wrote:
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to run up to the truck stop and fill the Mercedes with 20% battery acid. :wink:
You dog you. :wink:

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retmil46 wrote:
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to run up to the truck stop and fill the Mercedes with 20% battery acid. :wink:


It's not an acid, man, it's a SOLVENT. Get it right, man!

I know that 'cause an engineer friend of mine told me so...

:twisted:

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Special Agent - Your attempts to be snide will just be ignored. Once again, I understand you have a belief that you are seeking to adhere to regardless of whatever else I bring up. There is no way that myself or any number of facts can change an already made up mind. It reminds me of the Bush administration, only hearing what they wish to hear. I will however state that engineering is engineering. Currently I work on software, I have also worked on hardware such as phone systems, and small devices. Those of us in test engineering are very versitile. I understand methodologies and I am qualified to judge other test plans for defects effectively. You don't have to accept my credentials, and honestly I don't care if you do, your mind was made up before your first post.

BioDieselJeep - Thank you for your post, and I am glad you made one of substance. You make a very valid point, many of the problems with net energy are being slowly resolved with second generation biofuels, cellulose ethanol is one good example. However most of what is in production today does not meet that criteria, especially on the ethanol side. Also, the Science article(which I read last year) has not been considered the 'last word' on this topic by any means, and studies since then have contradicted some of its findings(like the U of O study referenced earlier). A good read can be found here(and it is fully referenced): http://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/background2.php (thanks to Johnny Corvette for the link).

The larger problem however, and the one that studies such as the science one do not address is the massive amount of land required to offset any sizeable amount of our transportation fuel, the mass consumption of water, the increased reliance on petroleum based fertilizers and chemicals, and the fact that overall, our need for oil globally will continue to rise precipitously as China, India and other third world nations graduate to first world status and begin competing for the same resources. Those things combined lead to global shortages and a decrease in any real impact of these fuels. Furthermore, even if they were successful and all our wildest dreams came true, they simply remove the US from one limited resource(oil) and change us over to another limited resource(farm land) which unfortunatly is needed for other more critical tasks(like feeding everyone).

A revolution in biofuels is needed before it can be a real alternative/renewable source. This is why I push people to support legislation that would federally fund research as that is how we will ultimatly find our way out of this mess.

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Over Population is our biggest problem...we reproduce too many of ourselves :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

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The real key to making altenative energies viable is to simply increase the efficiency of the process that will be using that energy. That is going to require a change in lifestyle to some degree, and that change will not be made willingly by the american public. Believe me the parties involved in energy production really dont want the whole US to suddenly not need their product.....they arent going to push for energy efficiency any more than what is required to make them look good.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:31 am 
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Can this thread be closed yet?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:44 am 
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chrismc wrote:
Can this thread be closed yet?

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