I have only ran BIO diesel once as it is not readily available in my area. It was last summer and it was B9, It ran great and I got 28 mpg (we were on a road trip). A friend is preparing a case study for changing his company fleet over to diesel and using BIO diesel. He said the research he has done has shown fuel economy losses as much as 10 percent and loss of performance.

What are your real world experiences and with what blend?

_________________
Sold 05 CRD Patriot Blue, hole in the roof, Trailer tow, factory skids, LSD, Saris load bars, Michelin LTX M/S
Current Bright white 2010 Dakota Quad Cab 4x4 V8

He will likely increase the maintinence costs and decrease the longevity of his diesel engines due to the corrosive nature of the fuel. I would not reccomend a high concentration at all due to that fact. Chrysler won't support more than B20 I believe, and even then that is simply because they want it to last through the warranty peroid.

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

C Barron & Sons may be able to supply you with some info, they supply B20 to stations in SE Mi, 734.241.8633 is the office phone number. I have run many tanks of this, some loss of mileage, but very smooth running. One asspect is that Bio is a solvent and will loosen some gunk from the fuel system and will need a filter change after changing to Bio.

_________________
06 CRD Limted Inferno Red, BD 04.06. Goodyear Wrangler Silent Armom 255/70R/16, Pro Vent 200. 02 Air Box Mod., Magnaflow Muffler, DrawTite Front Receiver, Waren 9.5 Portable Winch, Power Connection Front and Rear, Full Mopar Skid Plates.

The biggest deal breaker is that Bosch does not approve anything over 5%. They feel that the "quality" is not monitored or standardized enuff to go any higher than the 5%.

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

Well I have friends who have been running biodiesel for years and one individual who has 350k+ miles of nothing but B100 without any fuel anything wearing out on his old VW Passat TDI and I would hate to try to think how many old MB's are running biodiesel these days. None have ever had any problems unless it was due to water from improper brewing. They have all reported no more then a 5% loss to as much as 5% gain, depending on age/miles of vehicle. Higher mileage vehicles seemed to have fuel mpg increase (due to cleaning of fuel system?) also so new vehicles did better on mpg's due to higher cetane value of the Biodiesel over their regular low cetane fuel.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

I don't know where your info comes from but Bio diesel and the waste veggie oil systems are alot better for the actual metal parts of the engine because of the higher lubricity of the fuel. the only thing they are more corosive to is rubber parts and the fuel filter will clog if you don't clean all of the glycerine from the biodiesel. The only engines I've read about problems are the early Fords because of all the rubber seals in them. but most are being switched over to silicone with maintainence anyway. you should check out "from the fryer to the fuel tank" by Joshua Tickell. I don't know how much I trust the stats he uses in the opening but the fuel information is good.

_________________
formaly 2005 CRD sport w/True Flow air filter

currently 2006 Dodge Ram Mega Cab 4X4 2500 CTD

OldNavy - There are exceptions to every rule, and plenty of vehicles that may last a very long time. The real questions are: Of the problems that they have had, how many have considered that BD may be why some things are wearing out, and if it lasts 350k miles, how much longer might it last without BD? You can't answer these without empiracle testing, of course, but they are valid. Pointing to anecdotes does not prove anything.

I mentioned it in another thread, but I have a good friend who works for a military contractor. They have done long haul testing on the engine in our Jeeps(and its big brother, a version they use in the military thats heavily modded) and he put it this way: You halve the life of the VM Motori CRD with B100 fuel. They saw it consistantly, and fuel quality was not the reason(controlled environment and sources). You don't have to believe this of course, and I expect that many will not. I can't publish results because I did not run the tests myself(he won't do a writeup, he is not certain what he is allowed to state publicly). I am however a test engineer by trade(although not for cars) and I do trust the methodologies they were using.

G-Funk - Diesel in general is a lubricant, but Biodiesel is a solvant just like gasoline. It will eat away at an engine that was simply not engineered to run with a solvant inside. It will degrade even the metal over time. Ever wonder why gas engines last roughly half as long as diesels despite lower pressures/compression? Diesel people like to believe its 'superior engineering and tolerances' but thats only part of the equation. The fuel is the other part.

Once again, I don't expect certain people here to believe me. I know that biofuels have become a religion to many who do not understand the chemistry or the science behind them. There is nothing I can do about that. But I am qualified to talk about them, and I do understand what is going on here.

For some information on where I am coming from, read my reply to this thread: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=15586

_________________
2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

How does B100 differe from the BD they used in europe? there is only one grade that I have seen at the pumps here and that is all.

_________________
No longer a CRD or Jeep owner. Selling everything I have, needs to go as I need the room for a project.

Reflex-

Biodiesel is high lubricity fuel

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bi ... gle+Search

You can add it to diesel fuel/ULSD to raise its lubrication properties!

_________________
It may be that your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

06 CRD Sport
Built 5/11/06
Jeep Green
Rocklizard diff cover
V6 Airbox

I would say BS to what your friend is telling you. None of the people I know that have had problems with their fuel system that were running B100 commercial or home brew, the problem has been water or gylcerine from the fuel. All their other problems were not fuel related, they have been timming belt related, turbo seal failure and host of clutch problems.

Shipmate there are just far too many people running B20 to B100 for the last 10 years for your friends statement to hold water.

_________________
91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

The first Diesel was run on bio and I know of alot of people that have run bio and get many many miles on there diesels. The only problems of course is if they have ran them on dino they have clogged fuel filters at first.

Your friend doesn't work for Haliburton? Does he?

_________________
O|||||||O

LOST #-169388
'79 CJ-5
32x11.50x15
304 V8

'08 Chevorlet HHR
Victory Red
Stock for now.

Wow, a cat fight over biodiesel. Who wudda thunk?

Why not, lots of cats around.

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

The other thing to note about Bio in general...the ph factor changes with time and this causes the "acidity" to increase in the Bio over time. I think moderation is the key here. B5-B20 would be the Bio that I would feel comfortable running. I usually get B20 when I go to Austin and add it to a 1/2 Deisel tank...so B10 or so seems to do fine.

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

They use hemp for the source.
http://www.hempcar.org/

_________________
Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)

I think the key words here are "heavily modded". An old Navy friend of mine did quite a bit of work on the Italian diesels in some of our minesweepers. His comments on them could be summed up as the engines in their original form were quite good and reliable, but after DOD modified them to try and increase their HP/torque output, they fell flat on their face. The engine design couldn't handle the extra output they were trying to get out of them. In other words, the modifications killed the engines.

I'd be curious to know if your friend has any data as to whether or not these modded engines had the same failure rate running on #2 dino. If he doesn't, I'd say there's the possibility that whoever modded the engines is trying to play CYA, blame the failures on biodiesel instead of their own poor engineering to prevent losing a government contract.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Obviously, I am in favor of Biodiesel use. HOWEVER fuel quality IS VERY IMPORTANT and if your livelyhood is on the line, be vigilant. Commercially made biodiesel (which I use) which is delivered at 99.9% concentration with a certificate of the ASTM tests done on that batch. If it is blended, the more reliable distributors should have the test info on the biodiesel portion.

This industry is in the early stages, and there is a lot of gunk out there. Recent "spot" checks on delivered fuel showed an alarming amount of off-spec stuff out there. That may not just be the manufacturer's fault....the distributors are also on a learning curve. I work (partially) doing biofuels research, so I read the "scandals" and whatnot. However, that is not to say that all petroleum deisel comes out the pump in perfect shape, look at some of the threads on this forum. There are many people working to improve the Biodiesel quality chain and they will, undoubtably, rapidly improve the consistancy of the product the consumer is buying. I would guess that this summer the biodiesel available in the mid-west will generally be much better than two years ago.

Now, the home-made stuff is only as perfect as the perfectionist making it....if you catch my ironic meaning. It is very very hard to make a product in small batches, with input feedstocks that vary in quality each time (from dumpster-to-dumpster), and have it come out the same each time. That said, there are some very good garage producers out there. Just like there are some very good home-winemakers and home-brewers out there.

My work is with using biofuels (of various qualities) in home heating/hotwater furnaces. Much less expensive equipment that is easily cleaned. For my Jeep and Jetta, I am running B5 to B10 this winter. B99 to B50 in the summer. Same issues as everyone, no wammies.

Hope this rant helps.

_________________
2005 Liberty Sport CRD w/all the fixings
Elephant Hose, MAF (ORM), Amsoil Airfilter, nice when I get to drive it
1 EGRreplacement, but never again.
99.5 FrankenJetta TDI (R.I.P.): being turned into diesel hybrid!
99.5 Replacement Jetta TDI: deal of a lifetime, EHM, some other stuff

well.........

I'd put my money on oldnavy and Darby.

An engine, any engine is designed for a purpose. I had a chat recently with a long time Jeep service manager here in Ireland just the other day. I was asking about our 2.8 Vm motor verses the 2.5 sold in the KJ here. The discussion moved along to VM motors generally and then a short discussion about detroitdiesel.

Most of us would be shocked at how many VM "general purpose" diesel engines our military uses and/or has used in the past.

Isn't the U.S. Navy doing research on bio-d?? Anyway....

Isn't the VP-44 a Bosch pump? Shoot, and there was another pump that did really poorly on the more viscus fuels.

However, those pumps and at this point all of our engines have been designed to run on good old #2 dino.

Am I willing to trade longevity to see us begin to use friendlier fuel? Sooooo.... my lil' Italian can get lets say 250k miles instead of 350k miles?? Seeing how its sitting in a Chrysler product to begin with, everything else will have been replaced twice anyway. So, I say yes.

My saying is this, "If you want to come down off the porch and run with the big dawgs, be prepared to get nipped in the arse [higher maintenance costs] once in a while. And, if you don't like the nibble, then stay up there, safe with the other pups." [drivin' a Honda]

_________________
2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

Good saying. I also understand the VM to popular in marine applications.

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

I think it is safe to assume that when people say B100 they are referring to commercially produced fuel, not WVO converted home brew. I'm curious as to how it is as corrosive as gasoline when it is supposed to be very tame and less toxic than table salt.
-c